Thanks for the answers above. I think a lot of this thread get lost in terminology. If you don't agree on the language of the situation, how in heck can you come to a consensus? For the record, in post #24, I did bring up overreach...just saying @andrew, your quote essentially summarizes my whole point. Denial is only an indirect attack. If you want to topple a fortress or bulwark, you've got to wage a frontal attack at some point. The legitimizing of matriarchy (in and out of the church) is the frontal assault we are losing right now.