So if the Lord is with them wether now or in a future time, how does that translate into American or other western people sending them massive aid so that they can be strong militarily? Is that what "blessing" them means? Sending them tons of money so they can run people out of their homes? Supporting their political policies and agendas is blessing them?
Hey sister,
First, I'm not sure where your covenant head stands on these issues. Wherever he stands theologically then I would suggest you consider that first. But then again if you're here he's probably given you permission to be taught or to hear other views so this is likely not an issue at all.
Second, remove the religious aspect of it for a moment and try and think of it strictly logical terms. All countries to some degree or another support and do things as a whole that are not ideal or good. Even here in the US we have at times been too aggressive and supported wrong agendas. Thus we can't logically use that as the starting point to build a pro or con picture. If so we would even have top be con or against our own country.
Third, a blessing can come in many different forms. Aid through medicine, military supplies, sharing of the gospel, are just a few ways in which any country can bless another country. Indeed any of those can be blessing.
Fourth, seriously think about your statement there about a home being invaded. Suppose we have living in homes here in this land people who are spies, people dedicated to treason and dedicated to kill our government and us so that they can have their own way and ideology in the land. Unless one em,braces the passivist ideology that force is always wrong then indeed logic will point out that at times force is required for one's own self protection.
It does, however, make me wonder if you have read much of your OT. At times Israel totally annihilated, not just defeated but totally destroyed foreign enemies in the OT, even to the point of at times wiping out all people. Merely taking those as historical stories shows us God at times endorses military force against those who want to undermine a country. But, that is a religious reason so I shall leave that alone for the moment and give the logical reason alone. It is indeed the better route to destroy or export anyone or any organization that seeks to kill or undermine any country through the use of sabotage or force or violence. Supporting any democratic-republic that seeks to have its own country is overall better than allowing anarchy and/or destruction at the hands of countries that seek to destroy that country for no reason other than hate.
Place yourself in the situation here in your own homeland. Suppose your state was a country. All of the countries around you hated you and wanted to kill you all for no reason other than they merely hated you for you just living and existing. Then suppose they through subversive means and through outward military aggression sought to destroy you, your family, your loved ones, and take over your country by bombing your land and invading it without any justification other than they hate you. If you were really and truly placed in that situation you would likely be begging and pleading either through political process or even through divine petition or both that someone or some country would help you.
The US has been that ally to Israel in that light and thus in the basic premise they are right and just for defending their democratic-republic neighbors in a land where Israel's neighbors hate them just because they are alive. In such cases the efforts are not aggression but proper defense efforts. As the ole saying goes, the best offense is a strong defense. Our efforts to support the Jewish race and their right to exist and live in a homeland where their people can be secure, safe, and where moms and dads can raise their children without the daily threat of being utterly destroyed is a just, honorable, and pious position. It is good for us to support them and if we were in need we would hope and desire freedom loving, just, and honorable people who loved us would also help us. Ultimately it boils down to just that, love. it is always right in all times at all places in all circumstances to love another person, community, state, or country. Love is always right! Those who hate are the antithetical opposites of love and those who hate show their hatred through seeking to destroy another person or country without justification or provocation. Thus it is right for us to defend someone getting assaulted on the street-corner just like it is right to defend a country being assaulted on a national scale. The principle is the same. Those who hate seek to destroy others without just cause. Those who love seek to defend those who are being attacked.
Granted, that works both ways and to that much I admit a point. If Israel goes out to merely destroy another person or country without just cause we ought to oppose them too. If they decide they want to go on a crusade to make all of the world a part of their country and and to place everyone under their rule then we should and ought to oppose them and defense those they seek to kill and destroy without cause.
There are other democracies in other parts of the world that are "freedom/liberty" blablabla that need the help much more yet Isreal gets most of our aid!
First, I do not have numbers of stats to have a true chart on who gets the most help and why. If you have that hard facts data sheet that is verifiable then great, you may be right. But as it stands I think that might be at least speculation or even over exaggeration.
Second, let us assume for just a moment you are correct. Is it that Israel asks for it? Maybe they ask for more than other countries? Do we know who is asking for what? We would need to know that to make an accurate judgment on that. Also, other freedom loving or democratic republic countries may not be in the center of a region where their neighbors hate them and seek to kill them just because they exist. Many of our southern neighbors in the lower hemisphere have some forms of democracy. Few of them are despised and under the hatred of their neighboring countries like Israel is from her surrounding countries, some of which want to destroy her without any cause other than they hate them and think they should be wiped off the face of the earth. They share basically the same ideology that Hitler did, Jews are evil and thus they need to be destroyed. Thus, in those areas where a country is under more pressure we might indeed and likely are giving more aid, as they need it more than countries who do not face that same threat every day.
K
uwait, Iraq, Afganistan, now Lybia, Egypt, etc. are all enemies (or potential enemies) of Isreal not ours neccesarily yet our country has lost so many young men for protecting them. We can't even protect our own southern border but we have to help break down and "rebuild" nations that are a threat to Isreal?
My sister I understand your frustrations here. I join you in part here and say that we need to do a better job of balancing our efforts. Much of the problem is that we have abused our service men and women and sent them into more than they need to be in and we have not been good stewards of our own budgets and monetary system.
I'm not so much in favor of "rebuilding" nations either, at least not without due compensation for it. We go into lands take them out, spend billions of dollars doing it, rebuild it again and spend billions doing it, and then those people and governments fail to support us or pay us back once re-established? That is bad policy as I see it.
But I think the key is not a complete and total across the board policy that we will not help any other country no matter what. I think if I understand it correctly Switzerland holds that position. Thank God we did not have that position when Hitler was on his world-wide crusade to conquer the world. There are times in which we need to intervene to help. I think we do need to focus more on resolving some of our serious internal issues. But balance is the key. As so often in life it is not an either or but instead a both and. We need to spend our resources better to resolve some serious internal issues yet cut out waste so that we can indeed help our neighbors when they truly and definitely are in a need that they can resolve without loving neighbors who come to their aid.
I frankly doubt Isreal would ever return the favor. Isreal has made the US it's servant in many ways I believe and Christian Zionism which I do not believe in is the main reason.
Again that sounds like speculation and something based on emotion rather than any factual evidence. If we take them at their word they indeed do claim to love and stand with us and I think just from that, unless we have some other reason to believe their leadership is just blatantly lying, the weight of evidence is more on them being an ally of ours than not. And when we examine some facts we do see they work with our intelligence community and give us much support in such ways as that. Thus there seems to be more evidence that they would be with us than against us. As I said, sounds like emotional biases are pushing that statement.
Not any kind of "freedom" excuse. Jesus overturned the money changers table and told them like it was! He didn't boot lick his supposedly "chosen" people but called them a "generation of vipers".
You are confusing spheres here. The common grace sphere operates in the natural or political sphere of the world. Go ask your head as he is a Calvinist and he knows the difference between common grace and special grace. Special grace is the doctrine that pertains to the gospel, the need to believe and trust in Christ, the religious beliefs and doctrines of Judeo-Christianity.
But common grace has to do with natural life and natural order. The two spheres have always being distinct and different even though at times they overlap. They overlap in that a natural living and breathing person will study theology.
But they are distinct in that a natural living person is not always a believer in Christ and yet he still lives and functions in his natural world and interacts with people of various ideas and lifestyles.
In this case with Christ he opposed the religious leaders of Israel because of their hypocrisy and because they were rejecting his special grace (or special revelation) message. Furthermore, Jesus can and did both. He opposed them for their sinful deeds yet he supported them in their ethnicity. Never once did he ever tell the Jews that they were wrong for their love for their land or culture. He told them they were wrong for not submitting to him. Though I am trying to steer a common grace point of discussion here without going into Scripture to base one's belief on this I will, in light of this particular point, add that even when the disciples where watching the resurrected Lord ascend they asked him was he at this time going to restore the kingdom (the physical, political, governmental rule of the King over Israel) to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). Jesus did not rebuke them or correct them or tell them they were wrong on this hope and desire. He only told them they would not know the times at which it would occur, which implied they were right about their hope but that they would just not be given the times at which it would occur. The hope and desire and love of the ethnic Jews for their land has been and will always be something they desire and look forward to. Jesus never, not once, corrected that or told them such a desire was wrong. Even the opening of the NT we find Luke telling us that this Jesus will "be great and he will be called the Son of the most high. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, his kingdom will never end" (Lk. 1:32-33). We see this concept from the OT as well. Isaiah 9 clearly and plainly says, "He will reign on David's throne, and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever" (9:7). Though there is more than just this one kingdom noted in the Bible (there are five distinct forms of the kingdom rule of God) this is not to be overlooked. Though there are more there cannot be less than this.
Americans take a few "blessing" verses (their favorites!) out of context and justify wrondoing. That is a shame.
A few? How about 10, 15, or more (sometimes even entire chapters) that are explicit promises made to an entire ethnic people? How about 73 times the term Israel in the NT is used specifically just to the Jewish ethnic race? Why would you have such a problem with God making specific promises to a specific ethnic race? It does not harm you or anyone else for us to let them have what they have been promised to have. We do not lose any blessing because God blesses them. Again these are religious reasons again based on special grace revelation but applicable to your point of contention.
As noted above, I'm not about supporting Israel when they are wrong. In regard to special grace revelation and the gospel I do stand against their direction and offer to them the gospel of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Just as Christ offered himself and rebuked them for that I too tell them without Christ they will die in their sins. But that is different than natural or common grace support. The US rightfully, and I personally in the religious sense as well as the general ideological sense, support them because they share some of our common ideas about life and liberty. Personally as Judeo-Christians we ought to support them because they are still loved by God and are still his chosen ethnic race (yes they still need the gospel too as being chosen ethnically does not make one saved eternally).
Even if I was a zionist it would behove me to follow Jesus's example and preach the gospel to them just like everyone else-not pander to make Jesus come sooner! :roll:
I think this points your your confusion. You do not believe both can be done. Try and think of it like a parent would with her child. That might help clear up your confusion. A mother will at times preach the gospel to her child, share truth with him, urge him to repent and place faith in Christ. She will discipline him for rebellion, and punish him for violations of the house-hold law. But, the mother will always have a tender love, a kind love, a special love for her child even when wrong. She will desire for that child to have a home, a comfortable place to be safe and protected. Oh sure she may see many wrongs he is making and doing, but overall she still has a special love for that child even while wrong. Likewise, that is how God as the parent, the Father over Israel, sees the ethnic people he has chosen. Beloved even though still in error. In need of the gospel for their sin yet still protected in the meantime just like a mother will protect her child in the meantime even while the child is in error.
