Will Jesus have two marriages in the end?

[AgnosticBoy]

In the OT, God was married to Israel. He divorced her but there are several prophecies pointing to the reestablishment of Israel, and in a sense I take this to mean that Israel will be remarried to God. In the NT, we see that God has a new bride that he's betrothed to and that's the Church.

Doesn't this point to two different marriages, one involving a remarriage with ethnic/national Israel and the other one with the Church? Polygamy?

 

[Slumberfreeze]

I understand the thought, but I'm not sure it holds water.

It is Jesus who marries the Holy City of New Jerusalem, which figuratively may very well be the Church, or the dwelling place thereof.

Israel (and Judah) are spoken of in terms of faithless wives. I tend to think of it in terms of the Father being married to Israel, for it was Israel that produced Jesus through the will and Spirit of God.

I think polygamy is already clearly shown in the OT by the LORD's marriage to Israel and Judah.

Whether Jesus is polygamous Himself is a matter of perspective for me. I could see both ways of debating it, but either way it doesn't make for a firm foundation of pointing towards polygamy. If anything, I have to start with the knowledge that polygamy is already blessed and built into the system and work my way backwards.

Also, welcome Agnosticboy!

For what purpose does an agnostic show up wondering about the mysteries of the faith?

 

[Quartus]

I don't know an easy answer. God did divorce Israel (Isa 50:1) but even so Hosea prophesied of a time to come when Israel would want to return (Hos 2:9) and be accepted (6:1). The fact that the Israel and Judah ended up in Assyria and Babylon shows that did not have any immediate fulfilment.

So as you have said, any fulfilment is centuries after. The nation can return but the individuals who didn't take the opportunity to return in their own lifetimes no longer have the option. So I think the answer is going to tend to be different depending on whether you look at it from a human perspective or God's point of view.

Agree with @Slumberfreeze, God's polygamy is clearly established by history, and "the cause was from the Lord" (1Kings 12:15) regardless of the fact that after the split God would have had two wives:
Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

 

[Quartus]

Oh I think I may have missed one of the points of your question.

The two nations Israel and Judah will be reunited at the return of Christ
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

and there will not be the human distinctions then that there are now
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

so you may end up with one wife in the future after all.

So really, I think it comes back to saying the the same thing:
Stick with history and you have definitely got God with two wives.
Fast forward to prophecy, and you've probably got an argument.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I understand the thought, but I'm not sure it holds water.

It is Jesus who marries the Holy City of New Jerusalem, which figuratively may very well be the Church, or the dwelling place thereof.

Israel (and Judah) are spoken of in terms of faithless wives. I tend to think of it in terms of the Father being married to Israel, for it was Israel that produced Jesus through the will and Spirit of God.

I think polygamy is already clearly shown in the OT by the LORD's marriage to Israel and Judah.

Whether Jesus is polygamous Himself is a matter of perspective for me. I could see both ways of debating it, but either way it doesn't make for a firm foundation of pointing towards polygamy. If anything, I have to start with the knowledge that polygamy is already blessed and built into the system and work my way backwards.

Also, welcome Agnosticboy!

For what purpose does an agnostic show up wondering about the mysteries of the faith?

Thanks for the welcome. AS you pointed out, I'm an agnostic but I like to research sexuality and marriage. If polygamy is next in US culture, then I figure that it's good to understand the pros and cons, the arguments for and against, etc.

 

[The Revolting Man]

He will have far more than two wives because we will all be living in a relationship with him that is best described by marriage. We are all going to the marriage supper as the bride of Christ.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Thanks for the welcome. AS you pointed out, I'm an agnostic but I like to research sexuality and marriage. If polygamy is next in US culture, then I figure that it's good to understand the pros and cons, the arguments for and against, etc.

I wouldn't expect to see polygamy to be the next thing to be accepted I our culture. We're not moving from a position of restrictiveness to one of permissiveness, although I know it seems that way.

Our culture is moving away from God's definitions towards anything else. Since polygyny is part of God's way, and is anti-feminist, I would be surprised if it is accepted.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I wouldn't expect to see polygamy to be the next thing to be accepted I our culture. We're not moving from a position of restrictiveness to one of permissiveness, although I know it seems that way.

Our culture is moving away from God's definitions towards anything else. Since polygyny is part of God's way, and is anti-feminist, I would be surprised if it is accepted.

Most likely the case. I think though that polygamy would be practiced more like polyamory. If polygamists use some of the same tactics as the LGBT, infiltrate Hollywood, popular music, tv shows (as is already happening Sister Wives and other shows), then that can go a long way towards seeing it as normal, not as harmful (like Mormon fundamentalist polygamy).

 

[Mojo]

I wouldn't expect to see polygamy to be the next thing to be accepted I our culture. We're not moving from a position of restrictiveness to one of permissiveness, although I know it seems that way.

Our culture is moving away from God's definitions towards anything else. Since polygyny is part of God's way, and is anti-feminist, I would be surprised if it is accepted.

Egalitarian, Female led polyamory will be accepted before biblical polygyny.

 

[Mojo]

There are lots of Christians who are "agnostic" when it comes to biblical polygyny. They don't have enough guts to make a choice one way or the other.

 

[Elijahsfire]

I wouldn't expect to see polygamy to be the next thing to be accepted I our culture. We're not moving from a position of restrictiveness to one of permissiveness, although I know it seems that way.

Our culture is moving away from God's definitions towards anything else. Since polygyny is part of God's way, and is anti-feminist, I would be surprised if it is accepted.

I dont think the culture as a whole will accept biblical plural marriage either. If we are going to be ambassador for this "lifestyle"(I hate that word) ,I believe our focus should be on the church to persuade them....I also don't think many have the guts to say they would support but secretly would. Maybe we should just start being obnoxious about it! Idk lol

 

[andrew]

It's two different arguments. With those who actually look to the bible for direction we examine what the bible says about God's will in the matter. With those who couldn't care less what the bible has to say, or give it lip service but no real submission, it's a matter of political liberty and privacy rights. In the secular culture we should have at least the same freedoms of association and privacy that others do.

So yeah, if you're trying to convince a progressive atheist or a know-nothing churchgoer that biblical polygamy is right because it's biblical, that's probably not going to go far. Doesn't mean we don't have a case.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I’d point you to John 17 as a prime chapter for polygyny. Specifically the pronouns used and the progression from all flesh to one flesh.

We often think of all flesh as encompassing the whole world, all mankind. However, Christ is explicit that the all flesh mentioned in verse 2 is exclusive of the world and only inclusive of those that are His in verse 9. In verse 20, He mentions those that will be added to the “all flesh” group from the “world” group and then in verses 21 & 23 concludes them as “one”. I interpret this as a synonymous term with one flesh simply because Christ equates himself with the father as being one [flesh] with no possibility of sexual intercourse. Thus supporting the premise that “one flesh” is simply referring to familial status, not intercourse.

So John 17 becomes a great text showing how “all flesh” can become “one flesh”.

 

[Mojo]

Christ equates himself with the father as being one [flesh] with no possibility of sexual intercourse. Thus supporting the premise that “one flesh” is simply referring to familial status, not intercourse.

So John 17 becomes a great text showing how “all flesh” can become “one flesh”.

This has been my general leaning for some time. It's in OT as well. IIRC, the same words translated as "flesh" are also used in describing familial relationships. Abraham/Isaac, Isaac/Jacob...etc. I believe it could even imply DNA union (that whole double helix thing) for the human side of things. Which, if you think about it, is more lasting than temporary sexual pleasures.

 

[Quartus]

I think the oneness that is intended would be spiritual not fleshly

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[PeteR]

The two nations Israel and Judah will be reunited at the return of Christ
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

An important note is that the two become "one" (echad) kingdom. This is the same word used in Gen. 2 where the man and woman become "one" (echad) flesh. ie, United one, not singular one (yachid) as in Gen. 22:2 "only son".

The point, God's Torah demands two witnesses and they are Judah and Israel. They will come together and walk in unity, but not become a singularity. For a full exposition of the idea, read Ten Parts in the King. tenpartsintheking.com recently published...

 

[Quartus]

An important note is that the two become "one" (echad) kingdom. This is the same word used in Gen. 2 where the man and woman become "one" (echad) flesh. ie, United one, not singular one (yachid) as in Gen. 22:2 "only son".

The point, God's Torah demands two witnesses and they are Judah and Israel. They will come together and walk in unity, but not become a singularity. For a full exposition of the idea, read Ten Parts in the King. tenpartsintheking.com recently published...

I'm afraid I don't have the book, but a brief response to the comments you posted here would be:

Regarding "one", I would rely on the fact that Christ sits on the throne of David, and for me that winds the clock back to a time before any split occurred.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Regarding the need for two witnesses, Christ's appeal when he was in the earth was not to human witnesses but to divine power (which could only come from the Father):
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Paul speaks of two distinct different phases of the "kingdom", the first period lasting 1000 years, and the second, of infinite duration. "The end" marking the end of the first phase:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (J) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he (J) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he (G) hath put all things under his (J) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him (J), it is manifest that he (G) is excepted, which did put all things under him (J).
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (G) that put all things under him (J), that God may be all in all.

At the end of the first phase, the clock is wound back before Israel and Judah, before David, before Moses, before Abraham, all the way back to Adam before the Fall.

 

[PeteR]

Regarding "one", I would rely on the fact that Christ sits on the throne of David, and for me that winds the clock back to a time before any split occurred.

2 Samuel 2:10-11; 5:1,5 indicate the kingdom was divided before David. Book makes claim Jacob examples the divided kingdom at the Jabok for the purpose of shepherding it through danger. same thing God has done through history.... very interesting read.

Regarding the need for two witnesses, Christ's appeal when he was in the earth was not to human witnesses but to divine power (which could only come from the Father):

True, but when asked about restoring the Kingdom to Israel, He said, "You shall be my witnesses..." then proceeds to name the capitals and regions wherein the house of Judah and the house of Israel were.... hmmmm.

Book argues that God had a purpose for the division (it came from Him, per I Kings 12:24) and that purpose has only now been fulfilled...

At the end of the first phase, the clock is wound back before Israel and Judah, before David, before Moses, before Abraham, all the way back to Adam before the Fall.

And, in the garden He had two witnesses, one taken out of the other, then made echad.

 

[Quartus]

Adam and Eve had no one to witness to in Eden, but anyway I'm not really into time travel. A number of features of Eden are carried forward to Revelation, but not all. The point I was alluding to was that sin will have been dealt with and the situation will have been restored to one that was similar to that before the Fall.

Literal Kingdoms need literal kings and literal thrones. With reference to Jacob's family, there aren't either in Genesis.
Saul, David and Solomon were literal kings literally reigning from Jerusalem over one literal nation.
After that we have literal kings of Judah in Jerusalem, and literal Kings of Israel in Israel.
After Assyria and Babylon, there have been no literal kings of Judah/Israel reigning on any literal thrones. Nor would there be until the Kingdom of Christ to be set up at the second coming:

Eze 21:26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
Eze 21:27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

That I believe will be a literal fulfilment after Christ has returned - the literal political kingdom the Jews always anticipated.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Then it will be Psalm 2 and Psalm 110, not the Gospels and Acts when the king and his apostolic witnesses were persecuted and put to death.
And when Israel submit to the righteous rule of Christ, the nation of Israel will again be the head and not the tail, as Moses promised and as they achieved to some considerable extent under David and Solomon:
Deu 28:13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
Deu 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

when asked about restoring the Kingdom to Israel, He said, "You shall be my witnesses..." then proceeds to name the capitals and regions wherein the house of Judah and the house of Israel were.... hmmmm.

I think it might help to have a closer look at that...
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

and then after that he revealed what they were to know instead:
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And that is also a breakdown of the apostles' witness indexing the Book of Acts in order, again with no literal thrones or kingdoms - Israel was under foreign dominion for every minute of that period.

The Gospels and Acts document the execution of the king and several of his witnesses and culminates in the expulsion of the nation of Israel from their land just a few years later in AD7o.
That is nothing like the kingdom that I expect from prophecy.

 

[PeteR]

So, do we not have a King right now?