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Wives and voting/advocacy

D

DeathIsNotTheEnd

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Hey all


Alright so, something I'm looking for opinions on.

How do you approach things when your wife(s)'s 'gut reaction' or normal direction in terms of supporting a particular political, social, etc...view, or candidate, conflicts with your own?

As an example: my wife has a strong 'gut aversion' to the death penalty. She acknowledges that the Bible seems to indicate it is not wrong, but she feels that because of the finality of it and risk for human error in possibly condemning someone unjustly, that we as a society should avoid it all together. In essence, she feels that the mercy to anyone who might be wrongfully condemned is more important than the justice executed over those who DO deserve the death penalty by law.
In contrast, I feel that the risk is 'worth it', in that while it may not be put into practice correctly all the time, and humans are fallible, I think that getting RID of the death penalty is too big a price, when the Bible clearly calls for the death penalty for some things. In that sense, I fall on the justice > mercy side I suppose, and if it was me in prison being condemned unjustly, I would not be arguing for the removal of the death penalty but for the correction of our courts!

In this case I have told the wife that I am going to teach our children my view. That when she speaks in public I'd ask that she not directly contradict me or argue against me, but is free to share her feelings about it of course. When it comes to voting for various political offices, I've given her leave to not pay attention to a person's stance on the death penalty, as it's a rather minor thing in my view.

However. Were this about, say, abortion, or rape, or feminism, or such...I might (would) feel differently.

So. This would be an incredibly unpopular question in our modern culture so I'm asking you all here, please be gentle, but tell me your thoughts and share your wisdom.

Do you tell your wife(s) who to vote for? Do you let them vote themselves but determine what is taught/said in the house? Etc.
 
Historically it has been my position that my wife will vote the same way I do. I rule the family, I cast the family's vote etc etc. (Not that there has ever been any substantial disagreement in my house to really try my conviction there.)

Currently I have found a way to hold an even less popular conviction: We do not vote at all, but pray and fast that the Lord's will would be done in each election. Just like I would not approve of my wife casting her vote against my choice for a candidate, I likewise would like to avoid casting my vote against the Lord's choice for an official.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
Historically it has been my position that my wife will vote the same way I do. I rule the family, I cast the family's vote etc etc. (Not that there has ever been any substantial disagreement in my house to really try my conviction there.)

Currently I have found a way to hold an even less popular conviction: We do not vote at all, but pray and fast that the Lord's will would be done in each election. Just like I would not approve of my wife casting her vote against my choice for a candidate, I likewise would like to avoid casting my vote against the Lord's choice for an official.
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Yeah I basically agree with all that. I like your new conviction! lol. You're right, unpopular, but about sums up my feelings on it :/

Over the years we've been together, my wife has grown. I can tell you when we first met, she would NOT have gone along with that idea. But nowadays she is much more following the Biblical model of a submissive wife, which I am eternally grateful for.

I guess something I'm wondering is...to what extent does it matter if your wife(s) agree with you, versus just following you, make sense?
 
Well, both my wife and I and this close friend and I disagree on a few particulars, although not on the 'spirit' so to speak. So I agree with and love my wife's heart for mercy even though I disagree with her end conclusion (therefore no death penalty). Which is why I don't mind her disagreeing as long as she follows my decision in practice.
 
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Warning to previous posters: In most jurisdictions, you'll probably find it is illegal to force someone to vote in a particular way. It's supposed to be completely their own decision. The posts of all three previous contributors to this thread could be read in a way that implied you are breaking the law in a way that "oppresses women", ie the cardinal sin of our society, and a number of other people have "liked" these posts. I would be very careful what you write or appear to support publicly on such an issue, and some of you may be wise to edit your posts and the things you have "liked".

Remember too that God does not force us to submit to His will. He only requests that we follow Him. If a wife chooses to follow her husband's leadership and vote the same way as him, that's her decision, even if she personally feels differently she is still exercising her free will. That is entirely consistent with scriptural principles of submission and secular law. On the other hand, if a husband forces her to vote against her will, then we're no longer talking about biblical submission but something different, that is debatable scripturally and likely illegal.


We need to also recognise that voting in our Western countries is a farce that exists purely to give the masses the illusion that they chose the direction the government is going so they need to support or at least put up with it and not revolt because they believe they have the power to change it peacefully next election. And then the next one, when each one fails... It's all a farce, because regardless of how you vote and what party gets in, the general direction the country moves in remains the same. The faces change but the policies remain. It's all an illusion.

So, given it's an illusion, does it really matter if your wife chooses to vote differently to you? It's not going to change anything anyway.
 
FollowingHim said:
Warning to previous posters: In most jurisdictions, you'll probably find it is illegal to force someone to vote in a particular way. It's supposed to be completely their own decision. The posts of all three previous contributors to this thread could be read in a way that implied you are breaking the law in a way that "oppresses women", ie the cardinal sin of our society, and a number of other people have "liked" these posts. I would be very careful what you write or appear to support publicly on such an issue, and some of you may be wise to edit your posts and the things you have "liked".

Remember too that God does not force us to submit to His will. He only requests that we follow Him. If a wife chooses to follow her husband's leadership and vote the same way as him, that's her decision, even if she personally feels differently she is still exercising her free will. That is entirely consistent with scriptural principles of submission and secular law. On the other hand, if a husband forces her to vote against her will, then we're no longer talking about biblical submission but something different, that is debatable scripturally and likely illegal.


We need to also recognise that voting in our Western countries is a farce that exists purely to give the masses the illusion that they chose the direction the government is going so they need to support or at least put up with it and not revolt because they believe they have the power to change it peacefully next election. And then the next one, when each one fails... It's all a farce, because regardless of how you vote and what party gets in, the general direction the country moves in remains the same. The faces change but the policies remain. It's all an illusion.

So, given it's an illusion, does it really matter if your wife chooses to vote differently to you? It's not going to change anything anyway.
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I did not mean to say (nor do I intent/believe) that my wife must agree with or believe everything I think, or like who I like for a particular political position or whatever. What matters to me is, again, the heart conversation (that we love each other's motives and Godliness, even if we disagree with the end principle). Where the rubber meets the road for me is where our disagreement falls to how we raise our children and how she responds/treats me, especially in public. I love my wife and want her to think these things through for herself. I love who she IS, which is why I can love those motives behind the ideas I disagree with. What DOES matter though is that as the head of the household, she does not contradict what I teach our children, and that in public she does not argue against or disrespect me in conversation. In conversation, sharing opinions, etc... disagreement is fine. But you're right, I do not want to FORCE her to follow me. She can always reject it, I suppose. But it will definitely affect my opinion of her, as well as break my heart, if she does so.
 
FollowingHim said:
Remember too that God does not force us to submit to His will. He only requests that we follow Him. If a wife chooses to follow her husband's leadership and vote the same way as him, that's her decision, even if she personally feels differently she is still exercising her free will. That is entirely consistent with scriptural principles of submission and secular law. On the other hand, if a husband forces her to vote against her will, then we're no longer talking about biblical submission but something different, that is debatable scripturally and likely illegal.
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I wanted to say this:
God does not 'force' us to follow Him, but we are digging our own grave if we don't. Once we DO decide to follow Him, though (as a wife would/should in BECOMING a wife, I'd say, by definition), then he DOES instruct us what He expects us to do, and He is displeased with us not doing so.
I feel like the semantics are tripping me/us up a bit here: particularly the definition of 'forcing'. Because otherwise one could say that ANY decision a husband makes that the wife dislikes is 'forcing' her. But then, the husband is still the leader. If I ask my wife where she'd like to go out to dinner and she says one place, and then I say "hmm, let's go there next week. I think today we're going to go to ____ place", I mean, is she 'free' to be annoyed, or to pout and sit at home and not go? Sure. Is that good? No...
 
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I should be clear that I am pointing out a very conservative interpretation of "forcing" in my comment on this thread due simply to the legal implications on this particular topic. How submission truly works is a complex issue, and we could debate the definitions and practicalities for hundreds of posts if we wanted to. I fully agree we should not get tripped up on semantics. I don't want to start such a debate, just point out the legal implications around this very specific issue, and offer an interpretation of biblical submission that is entirely consistent with the law on this matter for the benefit of anyone who finds that helpful.
 
FollowingHim said:
I should be clear that I am pointing out a very conservative interpretation of "forcing" in my comment on this thread due simply to the legal implications on this particular topic. How submission truly works is a complex issue, and we could debate the definitions and practicalities for hundreds of posts if we wanted to. I fully agree we should not get tripped up on semantics. I don't want to start such a debate, just point out the legal implications around this very specific issue, and offer an interpretation of biblical submission that is entirely consistent with the law on this matter for the benefit of anyone who finds that helpful.
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Of course!
And I would be interested in any threads dealing with that issue more in depth.

For me I see it like kingship. There are benevolent kings who seek the good of those under them, offer them choice and freedom, and seek the best for them. When it comes down to the wire, yes, the king gets the final say, but the goal is always harmony and loving guidance over force. There is, I think, a reciprocity expected there though. A king can only be a good king if his followers are joyful and loving and humble...it's very hard to be a general to a bunch of rebels and criminals, to use a word picture.

There are also dictators and tyrants who trample anyone to get what they want and demand obedience without question. That, obviously is different.

My goal, which I hope is clear in all this, is to be the first kind.
It's why I'm trying to honor my wife's request to walk with her through PM, to be patient as she seeks to hear from the Lord, etc...and why 'forcing it on her' would only be the absolutely last resort if I felt God was telling me to specifically. But never my preference or desire.

But...let us get back on topic :)
 
Ah, but what does a kingdom have to do with democracy? The two are polar opposites.

Certainly we are in a Kingdom, under Christ, in which each man is a subordinate ruler (e.g. a duke) ruling those immediately under his care in accordance with the general principles laid down by the King.

But at the same time, we are citizens of earthly states, many of which are democracies. And which are ultimately ruled, for now, by the king of this world, Satan, until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord (Rev 11:15).

So our wives have dual citizenship in a Kingdom that recognises the headship of the husband, and a State that recognises no authority bar its own.

You might as well ask "what authority does a subordinate bureaucrat in the State of the UK have over how a UK citizen chooses to vote in an election in South Africa where they also hold citizenship?".

When we choose to engage with an earthly system, we are subject to the laws of that system. Those laws will in many respects be completely antithetical to the laws of the Kingdom. If we don't like those laws, we can choose not to participate. Or we can choose to engage, under those laws, to try and change those laws (good luck...). But it is a different system with a different set of laws.
 
FollowingHim said:
Ah, but what does a kingdom have to do with democracy? The two are polar opposites.

Certainly we are in a Kingdom, under Christ, in which each man is a subordinate ruler (e.g. a duke) ruling those immediately under his care in accordance with the general principles laid down by the King.

But at the same time, we are citizens of earthly states, many of which are democracies. And which are ultimately ruled, for now, by the king of this world, Satan, until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord (Rev 11:15).

So our wives have dual citizenship in a Kingdom that recognises the headship of the husband, and a State that recognises no authority bar its own.

You might as well ask "what authority does a subordinate bureaucrat in the State of the UK have over how a UK citizen chooses to vote in an election in South Africa where they also hold citizenship?".

When we choose to engage with an earthly system, we are subject to the laws of that system. Those laws will in many respects be completely antithetical to the laws of the Kingdom. If we don't like those laws, we can choose not to participate. Or we can choose to engage, under those laws, to try and change those laws (good luck...). But it is a different system with a different set of laws.
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Amen. Well said :)
 
I'm going to ignore the issue of particular political beliefs and even voting (for the moment) and get to the core: A husband and wife are 'one flesh'. This is a deep truth at many levels: symbolically, in sex, in procreation, at the molecular level, spiritually, and mentally.

This isn't an issue of coercion or force but mindset. If the wife has a proper mindset and/or level of attraction she will naturally come to agree with her husband and be of one mind with him on any number of things, and well before the question of who to vote for in the current year comes up.

Can a house divided stand? In times past when 50% of marriages didn't fail, the typical wife would be scandalized at the thought of contradicting their husband's opinion, much less voting differently.

Actually, in times past they didn't even vote; thats a side effect of the matriarchy. You know a woman has the right mindset when she goes up to her husband and says, "Honey, I don't believe women should have the right to vote. Just let me know who I should vote for this election."
 
EternalDreamer said:
I guess something I'm wondering is...to what extent does it matter if your wife(s) agree with you, versus just following you, make sense?
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While I appreciate my wife having the same opinion as me, it is far less important than her following me. When the body would rather not exercise, but does anyways, that is normal. When the head sends the message to move but the body does not move, there is a real problem!

I operate under the assumption that if I lead effectively and consistently, my wife will conform to my image more and more as time goes on. The difference between disagreeing obedience and complete agreement is therefore merely a timekeeping exercise. That may just be my megalomania kicking in, though.
 
My wife and I are on the same page when it comes to politics but she has choosen not to vote for pretty much the same reason as Slumberfreeze and I respect her desicion. I on the other hand beleive no matter the outcome of an election G-d already has it figured into His plan on how to use it. So I vote my convictions and pray that it's benificial to His plan. As for what I teach my children, I've just been honest with the fact any one involved in politics from the Candidate to the voter is bias and has an agenda. My hope is to instill a fear of G-d in my children a let that be their bias when voting.
 
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EternalDreamer said:
Well, both my wife and I and this close friend and I disagree on a few particulars, although not on the 'spirit' so to speak. So I agree with and love my wife's heart for mercy even though I disagree with her end conclusion (therefore no death penalty). Which is why I don't mind her disagreeing as long as she follows my decision in practice.
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That’s an interesting concept, that mercy would require, no death penalty. I have always understood the death penalty as mercy for future victims of a known perpetrator.
 
I wasn’t sure that I would post on this, but I think I will.

I will usually research the candidates and then we’ll sit down and discuss the pros and cons of each one. When we go to vote, I do not pressure her to vote one way or the other, nor do I ask how she voted. If she wants to tell me that’s up to her and we will often discuss it after but its not a big deal.

I realize that God is in control of the election, though some may think that they control it, and I agree with FH that my vote doesnt really matter to the degree that they’d like me to think. I believe that I must be civilly engaged, but I refuse to cast a ballot for the worst of two choices. If there’s not a candidate that I can cast a positive vote for, I leave both blank and add a note in the margin that says so, so that someone else cant choose after the fact for me.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
I operate under the assumption that if I lead effectively and consistently, my wife will conform to my image more and more as time goes on. The difference between disagreeing obedience and complete agreement is therefore merely a timekeeping exercise. That may just be my megalomania kicking in, though.
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Not at all. If you look at the statistics of voting preferences for men and compare that to women (unmarried vs. married) you'll see that is exactly what happens in general at the societal level.

Although I would caution any man who assumes a woman will 'come to her senses' and change her political ideas post nuptials. I wouldn't count on it, esp. when dealing with more radical points of view which are likely to cause marital issues.
 
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