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Yahweh sent me a widow friend….

Regarding the relevance of the parable of the talents, that is not at all about earning personal enjoyment - had the man with one talent wanted personal enjoyment, he could have spent it all on himself and disappeared by the time the master returned... It is about growing the assets of the Master. The men who were commended did not get a lot of personal gain out of it. Rather, they put in the hardest amount of work, built the biggest businesses - supported the most people (employees) - and were commended for it. They were generous, to the degree that generosity served the purpose of expansion of the Kingdom - the most successful employed and therefore provided for the largest number of people. Growing a business that belongs to another is very similar to growing a family of people who likewise belong to God. Both are an exercise in strategic generosity. Be too generous to the wrong people and the man's asset base will shrink, not grow - an issue you yourself have highlighted well @Keith Martin at times, talking about how we must not enable single women to be single by throwing our assets to them to be squandered. I just also think that investing assets in one direction while other assets are lost out the back door is equally ineffective. Hence the strong relevance that I see.
I can easily agree with and support a declaration that, if a shepherd leaves the 99 other sheep already in his possession out where the wolves could get them while he puts all his effort into finding 1 other sheep, then that shepherd is a terrible steward of what he has been entrusted with.
Good. We're working from a common base of agreement. The issue is simply one of degree - you think I'm jumping to apply the label "terrible steward" far too fast, and I think you're being too slow about it. It is possible that some of this disagreement is imaginary since we are dealing with a parable, and in a real-world application of it (where we knew all the details about what we were talking about) we'd actually be much closer in our assessment of the situation than you suppose.

Really, you're just highlighting one side of the issue, while I'm highlighting the other. Both are true to a degree, and to a large extent your responses on this issue are really the necessary balance to my own statements, so it's good to have them also.
I categorically reject this interpretation of Scripture. This is a man-centered, New Age, self-improvement, works orientation to His Word, as if we're all just milk-driven Children of God who get stickers and M&Ms when we please our Master.
I wasn't thinking about new age crap, works based salvation, nor gold stars and brownie points. I'm thinking very practically. We're here to do a job - build the Kingdom. We must do our best to succeed in each task God places before us. If we drop the ball before a task is complete because we want to jump into the next task, we'll be far less successful than we would have been. It's entirely pragmatic and logical.
 
Teenage daughters especially need to feel the love of a father - if they don't feel a father's love, they will seek that love in the arms of a boyfriend.
Sorry; neither Scripture nor common sense nor research supports this contention.

'Feeling' the love of a father has value, but (a) the 'feeler' bears as much responsibility as the 'feelee;' i.e., whether or not one feels anything has as much to do with personal interpretation as it does with whether or not that thing (love or otherwise) is actually provided; and (b) lasting negative consequences for a teenage daughter from the absence of a father have far less to do with affection, affirmation or even attention than they do with the lack of grounded discipline that fathers provide compared to single mothers who aren't being grounded by a husband. Mothers are more prone to social approval and not wanting to lose the friendship of teenage daughters -- and thus both indulge those daughters and look the other way as they pursue self-destructive endeavors. The whole canard about fatherless daughters seeking daddy-love replacement in the arms of a young boy is a myth. Sorry; they're seeking sexual fulfillment and the heady power of being pursued, no matter how girl-power culture supports them for pretending it was something else -- and it is fathers who will have enough love and courage to step in and tell them, no, I won't let you do that, because you don't know what you're getting yourself into.
 
Yes, we’ve discussed this with the widow. We’ve openly discussed it for over a year.
Excellent. Thank you for clearing this up.
So at this time, we would be asked to leave the congregation if we’d proceed. We, and the widow, highly value community. It’s a healthy place to be as a family.
It sounds like, in your circumstances, a fundamental issue you face is having to decide which is more important:

preserving the continuity of the benefits you have from being part of that community

or

risking entirely losing the benefits of that community by choosing to do something that the community fails to understand indicates that they are at war with His Word in at least this one major regard.
 
I appreciate that the wording I used - "feel the love of a father" - led to the misinterpretation you came to @Keith Martin, so I'll clarify. I don't mean that a daughter needs to go on "daddy dates" and get pretty jewelery and lots of kisses and that sort of feely love, which she'll seek from a boyfriend. The real love of a father is demonstrated in this sort of thing:
and it is fathers who will have enough love and courage to step in and tell them, no, I won't let you do that, because you don't know what you're getting yourself into.
A firm hand applied lovingly. We all know a woman is looking for a manly man. She needs a manly, present father. Otherwise she'll look for this in a boyfriend, and easily find it because she doesn't have a father who is tougher than the potential boyfriend telling her "no" - a manly instruction that she will respect and recognise as love on a deep level, even if she cries about it on a surface level.
 
Our desire is a strong family that stays strong and stays together
Of course it is.
Time that we need to walk humbly before them.
I would only caution you that "walking humbly before them" may be counterproductive to truly staying strong.

They should be walking humbly before you, not the other way around. They owe you and your husband their very existence. You owe them nothing other than to treat them with decency. There is a great deal more that we righteously strive to be with our children, but it's not a matter of owing it to them.
 
I wasn't thinking about new age crap, works based salvation, nor gold stars and brownie points. I'm thinking very practically. We're here to do a job - build the Kingdom. We must do our best to succeed in each task God places before us. If we drop the ball before a task is complete because we want to jump into the next task, we'll be far less successful than we would have been. It's entirely pragmatic and logical.
Taken in bits and pieces, every bit of what you say here is laudable, but taken as a whole it fails to recognize that our Father endowed us with the ability to multitask. Therefore it's not even close to either pragmatic or logical.

It also includes this same pessimistic thread that you so regularly weave, Samuel, one that is also overly expressed at Biblical Families gatherings: that taking on an additional task somehow implies that the first ball is somehow being dropped. If we applied that logic to parenting, in order to prevent dropping the parenting ball, we wouldn't produce a second child until the first child was fully raised (and maybe never), and if we applied that logic to marriage, well, we might as well shut down Biblical Families altogether, because it will always be far too easy for naysayers (1st wives and white knights, in particular) to assert that a ball might be dropped if we marry a 2nd before the marriage with the 1st is ended by a departed's death.
 
We all know a woman is looking for a manly man. She needs a manly, present father. Otherwise she'll look for this in a boyfriend, and easily find it because she doesn't have a father who is tougher than the potential boyfriend telling her "no" - a manly instruction that she will respect and recognise as love on a deep level, even if she cries about it on a surface level.
I'm glad you clarified what you meant by 'feeling loved.'

However, I will assert without reservation that, if all we were talking about were whether or not a teenage daughter will seek a permanent relationship with a manly, present husband she respects who will instruct her and tell her 'no,' then we would really have absolutely nothing of substance to worry about when it comes to teenage daughters.

Having worked in the social 'science' fields, I can promise you that the Daddy-Replacement Myth is alive and well within those circles, but it has nothing to do with manly men; it's instead all about demonizing what the field considers to be early marriage, which in their feministized minds translates into a woman marrying before she first establishes her career and independence from men.

The bottom line, though, is that no daughter is entitled to her father refraining from taking on additional wives or children.
 
@Keith Martin, there is a balance here. Of course we can multitask. But we also have a limit on how much we can handle - some can multitask better, some have more resources to multitask with, and so forth. Obviously it would be completely ridiculous to say people should never ever take on a second wife because something might go wrong. But we need to be sensible and pragmatic when making decisions. There is a place for the visionary like yourself and the pragmatist like myself, and the wise person will listen to both and find both helpful in moving forward both boldly and sensibly.
 
Yeah, and I want to start off by acknowledging you for the true bigness of your willingness to be so gracious about the introductory statement in my earlier post.

Please bear with me as I disagree further (;)):


Samuel, I almost think you need a blinking road sign that accompanies many of these like-minded posts you make, because you have a tendency to vigorously assert advice that is far too discouraging to men -- and, in weighting the scales the way you do, you under-represent not only the responsibilities of the others (most notably wives and children) but misrepresent Scripture in the process (I will not drown us in a list of scriptures that assert male authority and/or female/child partial responsibility but assert that you should feel free to cite passages that support your position that makes a man solely responsible for everything everyone else in his family is experiencing, most especially their emotional states).

I would assert (a) that 'the 99' are entirely capable of significantly contributing to their own security, their own protection and to the filling of their own bellies [a man being where the buck stops doesn't mean he has to do everything]; and (b) that 'they have nothing to complain about' even if the level of security, provisioning and protection is not entirely to their liking (again, as long as significant abuse or neglect are not part of the picture).

Yeah, sure, of course, but you front-loaded that with such an overly-broad conjecture:

and then followed it with a horror-show example:

that your concluding assertion:

sounds good but in actuality only legitimately applies to your one provided example.

I can easily agree with and support a declaration that, if a shepherd leaves the 99 other sheep already in his possession out where the wolves could get them while he puts all his effort into finding 1 other sheep, then that shepherd is a terrible steward of what he has been entrusted with.

However, to assert, "If a shepherd is so focused on finding the 1 that he neglected the needs of the 99, that shepherd is a terrible steward of what he has been entrusted with," is to overstate the case. Oh, sure, sometimes some men go overboard in their quests to find additional wives, but the regular warnings smack more of paranoid caution than they do of any true reflection of men being 'terrible stewards' (and you already know what I believe about how this paranoid caution tends to reward the wrong people to congregate at biblicalfamilies.org while disincentivizing those who provide the most valuable participation in and support to the organization).

The much more pertinent concern is whether or not 1st wives and their own children whom they hypnotize to become Amen Choirs aren't making every effort to ensure that they remain the sole beneficiaries of a man's largesse.

'So focused' too often would be more accurately phrased, 'More focused than we want him to be,' and my emphasis is on 'want,' because in most circumstances it's not even a matter of any needs being neglected but instead the full range of desires that 1st wives and their children consider themselves entitled to demand from their husbands and fathers.

In most cases, is it a matter of risking 'losing' more of the already-existing flock? Or is it more accurately described as the existing flock threatening to mutiny or abandon the man if the already-existing flock doesn't accomplish manipulating the man into bending to their will?

My gut-level reaction to this declaration is that the 1st Shepherdess ought to be damn glad that the Shepherd devoted as much time, effort, diversion and even sacrifice to bring her into his flock in the first place -- and every one of the 1st Shepherdess's Sheep children should be monumentally more appreciative of that time, effort, diversion and sacrifice than the 1st Shepherdess, because had he not exhibited it back then they wouldn't even exist. Just who are they that they believe they have the authority to judge or even comprehend why their Shepherd would seek to take on another Shepherdess and 99 more Sheep (not to mention that it probably wasn't even possible to end up with 99 sheep with only one Shepherdess!)?

This is reminding me of my Masculinity Prescriptions thread and also making me wonder, Samuel, why you didn't continue participating there where you and I left off, my good man: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/are-we-not-mules-we-are-devo.16887/post-265450


I do not accept that the parable of the talents in any way has applicability here except perhaps as a tangential matter.

The parable of the talents is about the earning of rewards, about multiplying abundance -- and that may be the crux of the misunderstanding of the legitimacy of and/or purpose of biblical polygyny. Polygyny isn't about multiplying abundance; it's first and foremost a matter of providing abundance to those who currently have none (or helping them escape poverty and despair). I have a visceral negative reaction any time I recognize that I'm lusting (and I'm using that word not in the inaccurate modern vernacular as being exclusively sexual but in its more proper Paulian usage as overly longing for anything) for an additional wife or, for that matter, any time I observe any man here or at a Biblical Families gathering or anywhere else introducing his 2nd or 3rd wife in a way that either implies that he's predominantly the recipient of additional blessings (no matter what blessings he's hinting at) or indicates that he's somehow demonstrated evidence that he's to be more highly revered. As for the latter, no matter what level of 'accomplishment' is indicated by having multiple wives, it's cringeworthy to puff oneself up about it, but, as for the former, no matter what level of blessing a wife is, she is always more of a burden than a blessing over the course of a marriage. I'll address in a subsequent post my thoughts about assuming that the presence of wives is consistently a reflection of whether a man has proven himself worthy in the sight of God, but I'll assert here that no man for whom his wife is more of a blessing than a burden will ever have a second simultaneous wife in the absence of the 1st wife leading the charge for a 2nd one, because, by their nature, women expect men to accept that women are more burden than blessing; in fact, for women, marriage's primary purpose is to shift her burdens onto a man -- that's part of the nature of hypergamy. If a woman perceives that she will be more of a blessing to a man than a burden, then she's going to keep looking until she finds one who will put up more with her than she has to put up with him.

This is why I so repetitively repeat that, at its core, seeking polygyny on the part of a man is predominantly an act of generosity. There is selfishness involved, but I assume with great confidence that YHWH endowed men with the selfish aspect (sex and reproduction) of what would propel them to take on additional wives so widows and orphans would be covered, because otherwise men would lack sufficient motivation to be as generous as it is to take on the responsibility of one woman, much less two or three.
He’s back!
 
I would be asking those elders how many non sin areas of their neighbors/congregant's life they think they have any authority over? Do they break fellowship over someone marrying in the first place? What biblical grounds would they then have to break fellowship with you?
Doesn't this allign them with the apostasy spoken of in 1 Tim. 4? The apostasy that was agreed on by the church at Rome at the council of Trent......that thought to change times and laws?
This was when man....and man's institution called "church" thought to seize power over marriage, an over reach that has been continued to this day

Screenshot_20231005_152054_Chrome.jpg
 
I would be asking those elders how many non sin areas of their neighbors/congregant's life they think they have any authority over? Do they break fellowship over someone marrying in the first place? What biblical grounds would they then have to break fellowship with you?
Doesn't this allign them with the apostasy spoken of in 1 Tim. 4? The apostasy that was agreed on by the church at Rome at the council of Trent......that thought to change times and laws?
This was when man....and man's institution called "church" thought to seize power over marriage, an over reach that has been continued to this day

View attachment 6026
Thanks for sharing!
 
Thanks for sharing!
I kinda thought since you folks hadn't been researching or defending polygyny for long that the council at trent might not be something you were aware of. Most see the change of worship from the 7th day to the first as a fulfillment of the prophesy about "would think to change times and laws" but few ever mention the forbidding to marry that happened at the same time.
 
I kinda thought since you folks hadn't been researching or defending polygyny for long that the council at trent might not be something you were aware of. Most see the change of worship from the 7th day to the first as a fulfillment of the prophesy about "would think to change times and laws" but few ever mention the forbidding to marry that happened at the same time.
We really appreciate you sharing. You are correct, we didn’t have that info. I had briefly skimmed across the idea, but nothing concrete. Very helpful. We do attend a 7 th day Sabbath keeping congregation. 🙏🙏
 
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