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Yeshua in the Tanahk
- Thread starter Nikud
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After the Lord rattled my cage with feasts and Sabbath, I had to prove that Jesus is indeed in the Old Testament. I did, in spades. This article testifies to one way He shows up. The Angel of the Lord is another. The Memra in the Targumim is still another. The A-T occurances. Then, the character shadows in Joseph, Isaac, Jacob, etc... Truly, He is on every page.
solid brother, excellent point.
There's a wonderful book, John's Logos Theology which effectively undoes all the "logos as sofia" and other Hellenized philosophies about the logos high virtue and such.
The focus is as @Ancient Paths said, on the targums (Aramaic translations of the TaNaKH which were extremely popular in the 1st century)...memra מימרא & dibbura דבורא= "the word" in Aramaic (aleph at the end is the definite article instead of ה at the beginning in Hebrew).
It's quite amazing how the comments fill out concerning the memra in the various targums. He also points this out in Hebrew Tanakh as well.
The targums really bring something interesting to the table, so many places where the word of the L-rd is personified, the word of the L-rd led us out of Egypt, the word of the L-rd sits in judgement, etc. there is so much.
I recommended this book a while back and @aineo bought it since they were doing a John study with his family. He liked it quite a bit.
Be advised this book is written by a scholar so at times it can be heavy. What's neat is he was a layperson who changed professions from Engineering to being a scholar.
Anyone wanting to delve in the Aramaic targums, there is a great deal of information now available free at
COMPREHENSIVE ARAMAIC LEXICON PROJECT . Texts are available in Old Aramaic, Imperial Aramaic, Biblical Aramaic, Babylonian Aramaic, and others.
The real strength of this project is it's "analytical lexicon", you can get a nice breakdown and definition of each word in popular targumim.
A special note about targum onqelos, this is still massively used today. I used to have a chumash (torah + haftarot and minimal commentary, rashi, etc).
The Tanakh text appeared large in Hebrew, but in the collumn was the Aramaic from targum onqelos. In Azhkenazi communities it is tradtionaly to read the torah portion in Hebrew twice in Hebrew each week and 1 time in targum (Aramaic).
It should be noted that many of the targums comment as they translate. So you may have a 10 word sentence in Hebrew expanded to 15 + words in Aramaic becaue they are explaining things. It's kind of like an ancient world "Amplified Bible". The usefulness today is that it really gives us insight to how the masses viewed scripture in the day.
Targum Neofiti have some very interesting Messianic interpretations.
Full disclosure I only have made it a third of the way through the book I'm recommending because it is so dense. I underlined the heck out of so any things, found plenty of neat things and then on to the next thing. There are just so many hours in the day, but it's an invaluable resource and I reference it at least monthly now.
I may return and give some examples later (will wait and let someone beat me to it hopefully
*****edit here are some examples from the book I mentioned*****
Targum Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 32:39 says, “When the Word of the LORD shall be revealed to redeem his people, he will say to all the peoples, ‘I am he who is and was, and I am he who will be.’ ” As we saw, the threefold “I am he” of John 8:24, 28, 58, present, future, past, could be seen as a fulfillment of this quasi-biblical prophecy. In this Targum God goes on to say, “I through my Word put to death and make alive” (v. 39) and that God “through his Word will make atonement for the sins of his land and of his people” (v. 43).
Targum Neofiti Deut 32:39 reads quite differently but is also of interest: “See now that I, I in my Word, am he, and there is no other God besides me.
In the Targums, the divine Word is usually indicated by a form of the Aramaic word מֵימְרָא (Memra), which, when so used, is not a translation of anything in the Hebrew text; rather, the phrase “the Word of the LORD,” is often a circumlocution, or substitute, for the Tetragrammaton (the “four letters,” השם, or YHWH), the pre-eminent OT name for God.
Another important word used in “the Word of the LORD” as a way of rendering MT “the LORD” is דִּבֵּירָא (Dibbera), also spelled דִּבּוּרָא (Dibbura). This word is used primarily in the Pal. Tgs. of the Pentateuch and appears infrequently compared to מֵימְרָא. Yet, among its relatively few uses are several that give key support to the view that the Logos title in John does in fact depend on the Word of the LORD terminology from the Targums. Dibbera/Dibbura is generally overlooked by those considering the Targums as possible background for the Logos title
Gen 3:8 says that Adam and Eve heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden; in v. 10 Adam says, “I heard the sound of you.” In Pal. Tgs. Gen 3:8, 10, Adam and Eve hear the sound/voice of “the Word of the LORD” strolling about in the garden. Both Memra (Tgs. Neof. and Ps.-J. Gen 3:8, 10; Frg. Tg. P Gen 3:8) and Dibbera (Tg. Neof. [mg.] and Frg. Tg. P Gen 3:10) are used.
In place of “I will meet you,” Tg. Neof., Tg. Ps.-J., and Tg. Onq. all read “I will appoint my Memra.” In reporting the fulfillment of this purpose in Num 7:89, Tgs. Neof. and Ps.-J. say that from above the mercy seat, between the two cherubim, the Dibbera used to speak to Moses.
. Also, in Num 17:[4] God describes the place before the ark as the place where he meets with Moses, and again Tg. Neof., Tg. Ps.-J., and Tg. Onq. say that his Memra meets Moses thereץ
ok that's enough to wet the appetite, I have many many many many more underlines if you guys want a page dump. I don't mind reviewing these anyway but I just don't wanna drown you in this if it's too much.
lemme know
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Another book, written by a Jewish scholar,
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism (Library of Early Christology)
Demonstrates that it was common in the first century and earlier to view the "Angel of the L-rd" as the "2nd power in heaven"; what some would call Binatarianism.
The book is unique in that the author was an observant Jew and a scholar. The view of "2 powers in heaven" was later denounced as heretical after the rise of Christianity, for obvious reasons, but had once been quite common.
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism (Library of Early Christology)
Demonstrates that it was common in the first century and earlier to view the "Angel of the L-rd" as the "2nd power in heaven"; what some would call Binatarianism.
The book is unique in that the author was an observant Jew and a scholar. The view of "2 powers in heaven" was later denounced as heretical after the rise of Christianity, for obvious reasons, but had once been quite common.
Dang, @IshChayil , you ran with that one!!
You are correct, John was not presenting new or novel insight when he said, "in the beginning wad the Word..." He was simply using the established understanding of His day to ID the Mashiach.
The Memra is a GREAT study.
You are correct, John was not presenting new or novel insight when he said, "in the beginning wad the Word..." He was simply using the established understanding of His day to ID the Mashiach.
The Memra is a GREAT study.
Targum Neofiti: "And I will put enmities between you and the woman, and between your sons and her sons. And it will happen: when her sons keep the Law and put into practice the commandments, they will aim at you and smite you on the head and kill you; but when they forsake the commandments of the Law, you will aim at and wound him on his heel and make him ill. For her son, however, there will be a remedy, but for you, serpent, there will be no remedy. They will make peace in the future in the day of King Messiah."
Ancient Jewish tradition identified this mysterious person called “Shiloh” in Genesis 49:10, as being the Messiah:
“Until Shiloh comes”: this alludes to the King Messiah” – Midrash Genesis Rabbah 98.8, ibid 99.9
“The Messiah’s name is Shiloh” – Midrash Lamentations Rabbah I.16.51
The Targums [Ancient Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Hebrew Bible] are almost unanimous in giving “Shiloh” a Messianic interpretation for they rendered Genesis 49:10:
“Until the Messiah comes whose is the Kingdom” – Targum Onkelos
“Until the time King Messiah shall come, whose is the kingdom” – Targum Jerusalem
“Until the time King Messiah shall come whose is the kingship” – Targum Neofiti I
“Until King Messiah shall come, the youngest of his sons” – Targum Ps. Jonathan or Jerusalem I
“Until Shiloh comes”: this alludes to the King Messiah” – Midrash Genesis Rabbah 98.8, ibid 99.9
“The Messiah’s name is Shiloh” – Midrash Lamentations Rabbah I.16.51
The Targums [Ancient Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Hebrew Bible] are almost unanimous in giving “Shiloh” a Messianic interpretation for they rendered Genesis 49:10:
“Until the Messiah comes whose is the Kingdom” – Targum Onkelos
“Until the time King Messiah shall come, whose is the kingdom” – Targum Jerusalem
“Until the time King Messiah shall come whose is the kingship” – Targum Neofiti I
“Until King Messiah shall come, the youngest of his sons” – Targum Ps. Jonathan or Jerusalem I
Is it possible for Logos/Sofia and the Aramaic Targum, personified "word" concept to both be applicable?
Could it be hitting two birds with one stone? A gentile would appropriate his Hellenized understanding to Jesus. The Jew would understand it as a personified Lord.
Could it be hitting two birds with one stone? A gentile would appropriate his Hellenized understanding to Jesus. The Jew would understand it as a personified Lord.
Sure why not... it could also be from modern culture where some affirm good news "woooord!"
BTW I wasn't trying to belittle the view that it could very well have all the Hellenized nuances as well; these most of us know already; the relatively new insight outside of scholarly sources is the Aramaic take on it... which is huge from the perspective of Tanakh passages referencing G-d appearing as a man and calling that the word, something we don't get from the Greek angle.
Since the thread is "yeshua in the tanakh..." Greek LXX doesn't get us there nearly as much as this targum angle... at least I shouldn't have been belittling that view... thanks for the check!
I was felt directed to a certain page today in my hebrew bible and the very top line, where my eyes fell, said,
ישלח דברו וירפאם וימלט משחיתותם
"He will send His word, and he (the word) will heal them, and he will rescue them from their destruction"
Psalm 107:20
guess who...
ישלח דברו וירפאם וימלט משחיתותם
"He will send His word, and he (the word) will heal them, and he will rescue them from their destruction"
Psalm 107:20
guess who...
Totally get it. I was just introduced to the Aramaic concept of "Word" a few months ago. It was interesting and totally made sense. But, it was presented as a somewhat better, or more appropriate interpretation. I felt like it was something that God could use for multiple perspectives and needs. When you introduce someone to the Almighty who has little concept of him, you have to use language they can relate to in their reality until the Spirit can move on them to understand His true and grand reality a little more.
Keep up the good word @IshChayil