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And now, for something a little ‘different’...

Longview

Longview

New Member
Male
Boy howdy.

You wake up one day and something like this is on your plate.

Man how do I even start this blankety blank post...

First a caveat: this subject is not remotely new to me but talking about it with others is. Very. I’ve been reading scriptures about marriage for decades. I’m going to state some things plainly. They are my beliefs.

This isn’t easy for me. This is requiring some faith to even be here.

Okay. Here goes. Just the facts, and I guess my basic bio. Breathe deep and just walk it out, here. You’re just people.

All right. Bio first.

I’ve been a Christian since 1974. 47 years. I was raised Methodist, went to church at least twice a week so honestly don’t remember ever not believing in Jesus Christ. But I consider the moment I gave my heart to Him to have been during a screening of Johnny Cash’s film Gospel Road, on a Sunday evening during MYF. I know I was never the same after that. I have been a voracious Bible reader ever since. Cannot shut my mouth about Jesus Christ. I read very little fiction, except for professionally related, I read almost entirely Bibles or Bible related. Almost 50 years worth. My range of churches was unusually varied at first because I was stationed different places so I went anyplace that had a cross on the door, but after I left the military I kept looking for a home.

That has been quite an education...

Methodist
Catholic
Church of Christ (McKean)
Church of Christ (mainline)
Holiness Pentecostal
Charismatic nondenominational (various)
Southern Baptist
Seventh Day Adventist (whoa)
Presbyterian
Episcopal

But I was never what I would describe as a typical good Christian boy. Too wild. I was an athlete in high school, loved a girl, got in fights, drank beer, joined the military, went to college and dropped out of college four times, loved more girls, considered Catholic priesthood, was given a scholarship to seminary, could not become sure it was right for me, so declined the offer. Got married while in school, started a manufacturing company, had a son, got divorced. Asked God to have His will for my life finally, thought he’d make me a missionary to Africa or drunks, became an actor of all things, met a wonderful girl, led her to Christ (really just guided her to the runway she was already heading toward), baptized her. I’ve now been an actor in Los Angeles for 20+ years.

And I think it may be possible that I am biblically married to and responsible for at least two Christian women. My first wife, at 16 (both of us), and my current wife. I’m not sure of any others. I believe my first legal marriage biblically terminated in divorce. My first wife was not a Christian, I don’t think, and she filed. However, as much as she can’t stand me, it’s possible we’re still married.

There is so much to this whole thing that can’t possibly be covered here in one post. Probably not in a thousand.

I do not believe there is such a thing as casual sex, to God. And I am positive there is almost no such thing as divorce in God’s eyes and His are the only eyes that matter.

I don’t believe Christianity as it exists today is remotely monogamous, though all throughout out Christendom it is claimed, because God, the joiner of all marriage together, simply does not acknowledge divorce.

Divorce doesn’t exist.

So just to clarify, I am convinced that Christianity as it exists today is extremely polygynous, it is simply also extremely adulterous with the heads of churches and denominations acknowledging divorces and “remarrying” people. It isn’t real. I’m saying it’s not a real thing.

People. Do. Not. Marry. People.

Only God marries people.

(Even the Catholic Church acknowledges that priests do not marry, they only “witness” God’s marriage of man and wife.)

I cannot find a shred of evidence where a woman can be married again if she has been married before God. (Unless husband dies.) And I can’t find a shred that if a man is married before God to more than one woman that he can ever be unmarried to her.

Adultery? Adulterating what God has done? Sure. It can be forgiven. It’s a sin.

Married? It’s a state. It cannot be changed. It is impossible for a woman to have her first, twice. The man is also changed, he becomes husband, First, head, responsible.

We are not merely physical beings. We are soul and body, and in Christ, Spirit. There is a state of change which takes place biologically and spiritually, and neither are alterable.

It’s very similar to, and I believe somehow related to, the same type of change of state that occurs when a person is spiritually born, or born again. That person is not the same. They are indwelt by, one with, the Holy Spirit. They cannot be fallen, without Christ, again. If a woman gives herself to a man, she is forever altered, her state is ‘one with’, married.

This is only meaningful to human beings whose state has been altered by our Creator, from our fallen state to sanctified, requiring an act of will, the only way, by abandoning all to Jesus Christ, His purpose behind all of this in the first place.

God is ALL about our giving up our will for His.

He’s all about order.

What is more about order than 7 Holy Spirit filled women having one Holy Spirit filled husband, head and authority, second only to God in all things?

...and that was a great deal more than I meant to write. Sorry. I think I’ve been wanting to say that to someone for a Very long time. I guess it certainly gives an idea of who I am.

No names for the moment, I think.
 
Shalom and welcome! Blessings on your journey and love the many thoughts.
 
Mr. Longview, welcome to a very nice corner of the internet! :)
 
Welcome!

I guess that we don’t have to ask you to tell us about yourself, sometimes people are a bit reticent.
Great job out of the gate!
 
How does your wife feel about this?
We have a ladies chat on Monday evenings, 7.30pm Eastern time. We'd love for her to sign up and join us in the chat.
 
Wanted to clarify a couple of things. But first of all thank you all so much. I feel almost crazy to be even considering any of this and yet the Bible and the facts keep lighting up in this area, and you all seem like honestly delightfully normal people. And I don’t get a creepy vibe or like it’s a bunch of dudes trying to justify hooking up. I mean when I reached out to the main site, didn’t know about this forum yet, I got a reply from a female. Like... I’m saying an articulate, normal sounding Christian woman cheerfully welcomed me, talking about Jesus, and invited me to sign up here at the site where men have more than one wife. I just sat here stunned looking at my phone. I’m telling you I almost wept.

Stared at that email for days. I was all “that just happened.”

Oh, the clarification. Probably not a detail that would mean much to anyone but me and my wife, well, wives, (wow I just said that), but I am convinced I was biblically married first at 16 to my first (and I was her first.), as does she. She was a Christian as was I. She is 1st wife. Or wife 1. (Maybe senior wife?). It was about 15 years later that I was legally married and later biblically divorced. Then I married wife 2, to whom I am still very happily married. I could not BE happier married. But I am convinced I am also married to wife 1.

I have talked about this with wife 2 (she has a lovely name and I would use it if I could. Maybe one day), and she was originally devastated, you can not possibly be loved more than this woman loves me, and we don’t talk about it much but it does come up and we talk about it a bit more. She’s an incredibly bright, highly educated Christian woman, both of them are, both read and study the scriptures, so they’re both becoming aware of the reality of saints’ patriarchal headship over plural wives in scripture.

I don’t think either of them are ready for this forum yet though. Although I truly hope they can be someday. This is a lot to carry alone. And you really do seem like great brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
By the way, I have spoken one on one with Larry Crabb, Robert Wilkin, and Steve Brown, and all three acknowledged over the phone that more than one wife is not unbiblical, a sin, or even simply wrong in any biblically legitimate context. Two of them defaulted to prevarications like “it’d be hard.” and “no woman I know would stand for it.” Crabb didn’t. But I could tell he was angry I got it out of him.

This is a legitimate question to ask our Lord. And He is the only One who may answer.

Father tell us the truth.
 
Longview said:
both of them are, both read and study the scriptures, so they’re both becoming aware of the reality of saints’ patriarchal headship over plural wives in scripture.
Click to expand...

I take it from this you are still have some level of relationship with 'divorced' #1 and are hoping for reconciliation?
 
This is sort of interesting, hence the title re: ‘different.’ The nomenclature becomes a problem. Just describing all of this becomes difficult because, it seems, Satan has done a pretty slick job of removing certain words, concepts, from our verbal communication. After a while if we don’t have the words, we no longer even have the thoughts.

Bear with me please. This is a lot I know. Thank you to anyone who attempts to wade through any of this. I’m trying to get all this straight in my heart and mind. And to do it here where I’m not in a vacuum, where other Christians can hold this all up to the light.

So to keep wives and potential wives straight, I feel I need to explain how I’m approaching terms, and then organize them from there:

I don’t believe any marriage which is simply acknowledged by any legal system is valid before the bench of God. It’s meaningless like all of life without Him is. I acknowledge “the law of the land” scripture, and I live according to them as well as anyone. The problem is as Peter and John encountered, God sometimes brings us to places where "Which is right in God's eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges!“ Acts 4:19, becomes a point of departure from the unity of sin, for the Kingdom of God. Hitler, Assad, Stalin, all laws of the land. It is self evident.

So two men simply are not married by God, nor are two women, a man and a sailboat, nor an animal to a human. Such things are beneath humanity. Notable, btw, that Latin “ab homine“, ‘away from human’, is the root of the word abomination. It’s not a word to get all freaked out about. (I’ve never understood that.) It’s a technical term. It’s simply concrete truth. Like thermodynamics. So simply because the law which affirms its own sin by affirming the marriage of a woman to a dog, affirms any legal union between two people even if make and female is honestly not even relevant.

Okay. So we are only married before God. Only.

Concurrent to that, I don’t believe “true divorce” is a real thing. It’s like saying “true lie.” Before God, I’m saying.

More coming. I have to memorize some stuff.
 
Welcome @Longview.
Longview said:
Notable, btw, that Latin “ab homine“, ‘away from human’, is the root of the word abomination. It’s not a word to get all freaked out about. (I’ve never understood that.) It’s a technical term.
Click to expand...
Thankyou for that, it's really useful information. And it shows that I like how you think. Calmly and rationally. It's good to have you here.

Looking forward to reading your next instalment!
 
rockfox said:
I take it from this you are still have some level of relationship with 'divorced' #1 and are hoping for reconciliation?
Click to expand...

Yessir. That previous post was in order to have a base from which to talk about it all. I still need to clear up some of the order of precedence.

So I honestly don’t yet know how to approach defining or perceiving marriage in its various forms and contexts. It seems that there are at least two things by (in this century) described as marriage: worldly marriage and sanctified marriage, and by those terms I mean “worldly” a legal union between two unbelievers or even two believers whom have been truly married previously and have legally wed in disobedience (and I truly believe most do not even realize that’s a thing.), and “sanctified” marriage is one which truly takes place between man and wife with God as the Joiner.

I think Christians literally have nothing to do with or in common with civil marriage or union. Or rather that it’s simply not relevant to us. Federal benefits, okay, other legal benefits, okay, when I have to make deals with the works I find the world absolutely positively wants something for it. It’s a little like tax exempt status for churches No bueno. If I take the cookie I gotta dance.

My Father doesn’t need any _____ stale ___ cookies to feed my family and grow His kingdom. My Father is the ancient Rancher with cattle on a billion hills (adjusted for inflation.). I don’t need anyone signing anything for me.

My Father’s Name is written on me and my house.

At 16 my first was married to me forever. We were separated from each other by circumstances neither of us understood at the time or can remember. It’s possible that it was one or more of our parents. She was given a letter from me that I did not write. We were moved out of classes we had together. She graduated and went to college. I stayed another year.

She is wife 1 in my timeline. 1979.

We have been back in communication for nine years. I see her often.

I think the confusion came in up in an earlier posts where I referred to my first legal marriage. We were legally divorced, but I am to this day not sure how God views that marriage. I was walking farther from Him then than at any time in my life and it was a very worldly marriage. But I do think it’s possible she was a Christian, just a very worldly one. I know she was very sexually active before me. If she was joined to another in God’s eyes before me it is not possible that she was my wife before God.

But for organization, I’m calling her wife 2. 1992.

I am currently legally married, she was not a virgin when I met her but I don’t believe her two prior relationships constituted marriage. Possibly. But at this point I don’t think so.

Wife 3. 2001.

There also another one out there but I’m honestly not sure where it stands. It was kind of its own thing. She came to Christ while we were dating (between wife 2 and 3.), and I stopped seeing her because I thought it was “getting too serious.” Which was stupid. Of course it was serious. We were intimate. But I honestly don’t know where that falls before God.

Look. I’m not trying to complicate my life more. God knows I have enough to do. Or the lives of all of these truly incredible human beings. ... But I truly believe no one will look at these things because were ALL in these tangled messes (I have two deacon friends who have adult “hi. You’re my dad” kids from hookups in the 80s...) and I believe God wants us to look at all of this. And I think it may even have a very good purpose.

Boy howdy. You people are really incredibly patient. I can’t tell you how grateful I am to be able to at least try to process this all out.
 
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I think you'd find the various discussions we have had here on what constitutes marriage quite interesting. There are two schools of thought that never fully see eye-to-eye. Check out this discussion:
https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/0-when-does-marriage-begin-structured-discussion.13233/

Basically, the two views on this are:
  • Sex = marriage. If you have sex, and she is available, you're married (if she wasn't available it's adultery).
  • Sex + Covenant = marriage. If you have sex, you are obliged to take her as your wife (including getting her father's permission). If you fail to take her as your wife you are sinning - but she's still not your wife.
I'm firmly in the second camp for a range of reasons.

Consider your current wife, who was not a virgin when you married. If sex = marriage, then she truly became the wife of the first man she slept with. If divorce does not exist, then she still is the wife of that man, and you are living in adultery. So she cannot be your wife. But that is not correct. You know that cannot be correct - you refer to her as your wife. And we know it is not correct - many of the men here have married non-virgin women. Most women today are not virgins - we live in a screwed-up society.

We must not hold to a legalistic view of this that is so strict it doesn't actually make sense in our own life, and then think that our own life is the one exception to the rule but the rule applies to everyone else. If we say "sex = marriage, so any other woman having sex with a man is bound to her - yet my specific wife isn't bound to her old fling and is free to be mine" we say that the law really doesn't work, isn't important, and can be ignored. Or, we say we're somehow above the law that everyone else must comply with.

Far better to find an understanding of the law that doesn't mean we end up just ignoring it.

And this I find in the understanding that sex does not automatically constitute marriage, but rather creates an obligation to marry. With marriage being a covenant, an agreement, a state of being. Most simply, marriage is the state of (for want of a better word) "owning" a woman - being able to honestly say "this is my woman".

Exodus 22:16-17:
"And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins."

The verse does not say "she is now his wife". Rather, it commands the man to make her his wife. And her father has the option of refusing to give her to him - once again this shows she is not yet his wife.

A virgin daughter is her father's property / responsibility. She cannot be lawfully taken from him against his will, by just sleeping with her - that would be theft. Even if she is slept with, she is still his, not yours. He must agree to give her to you, if he doesn't give her to you she's not your woman.

However, theft happens. I don't think any of us would argue that a woman who was taken against her father's will and has been married to you for many years is not your wife - she is your wife. Because if you steal something it ultimately, to all practical purposes, becomes yours (if it hadn't become yours, it wouldn't be stolen!). If you steal somebody's hamburger and start eating it, they're hardly going to ask for it back - it's now your hamburger. Nevertheless, it was sinful to take it in the first place, and you still owe the person you took it from compensation for stealing it.

So if you sleep with a woman when she's in her father's house, you have an obligation to marry her. But if her father does not allow this, and takes her away from you, she is not your wife. He disallowed it, and he has full authority to disallow it. On the other hand, if you eloped with her anyway and you both settled down together, she is your wife - you sinned in stealing his daughter, you owe him an apology and maybe even financial compensation, but she is now your wife.

Based on this, I would say that the woman you are calling "wife 1" is not necessarily your wife, because you never took her as a wife, you never formed a committed relationship with her and this was by the sound of it specifically disallowed by her parents. However, if she has not subsequently married anyone else and her father's objection is no longer relevant, you do have an obligation to offer her a position as wife. I'd be simply taking the position that your door is open to her if she wants to join your family.

Also, divorce happens. The Bible does give provision for divorce under certain limited circumstances (e.g. Deuteronomy 24:1-4) - which means that divorce is real. Heavily restricted for certain, but it does exist.

If marriage is a covenant / agreement, then divorce makes sense. Divorce is the dissolution of the covenant of marriage. If is something we should not do, because what God has put together we should not separate (Matthew 19:6). However, if we do divorce, the divorce is real. It may have been sinful to divorce, but that doesn't mean the divorce didn't occur.

It was sinful to steal your friend's hamburger and eat it - but the fact it is a sin does not mean that the theft never occurred. It means it did occur - and it was sinful.

So I believe that if two people divorce, they are usually sinning by divorcing (because there is only one legitimate reason for divorce permitted by Jesus). But if they divorce anyway, they are truly divorced. The divorced woman is free to remarry as per Deuteronomy 24:2. If the divorce was sinful they will answer for this sin on the day of Judgement (and be forgiven for it of course if they are a follower of Jesus). Which means that your Wife 2 is no longer your wife.

I hope those musings help as you try and mentally organise all the complex threads of your own past!

Our primary obligation is to live correctly from this day forward. The past may be a mess which we cannot fully comprehend - but what matters is today.

Wife 3 is your first responsibility. If you managed to get Wife 1 but lost Wife 3 in the process, you would have achieved nothing. Keep Wife 3.

Then, you can consider obligations to past women:
  • Wife 2 was divorced. You chose to divorce her, so she is truly divorced (rightly or wrongly). If she has subsequently remarried, she is not your responsibility and you actually cannot remarry her (Deuteronomy 24). If she has not remarried, taking her back is an option.
  • Wife 1 was never actually a wife as her father disallowed it. However, if she has not married anyone else, you by default have obligations to be open to have her as your wife.
  • Wife 2.5 was not your wife either as you never committed to her - but like Wife 1 you may have an obligation to take her as your wife if she has not subsequently married anyone else.
In all three cases, if they have subsequently remarried, they are no longer your responsibility. That might simplify a lot for you.

Please note that I state all this knowing others will disagree with this perspective, and that's ok, they can post other perspectives for you to consider if they like. This is what I believe.
 
FollowingHim said:
Wife 3 is your first responsibility. If you managed to get Wife 1 but lost Wife 3 in the process, you would have achieved nothing. Keep Wife 3.
Click to expand...
This is the most important part of that entire post. Don't rush to do something feeling that you have an obligation if wife 3 is going to freak out and walk out the door over it.
 
Welcome! I am so glad you decided to introduce yourself to us! I know you will find some great support here. Sorry for the late reply, been busy with life these last few days.

Please tell your wife that there are many wonderful ladies here. We would love to be a support for her.
 
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