1: When does marriage begin? - Sex

[FollowingHim]

This thread is not to debate the topic named, but exists to collate scripture in support of one position only as part of a structured discussion. Posts that debate the topic will be deleted. Read this thread first before participating.

Position 1: Sex forms a marriage.

If a man and woman have sex, by default they are married. However:

• If they were ineligible to marry (e.g. if the woman was already married, so the sex was adultery), they are not married.
• If the woman was a virgin, her father has the right to annul the marriage.

The term "One flesh" is synonymous with marriage. When they become "one flesh", through sexual intercourse (physical act + potential formation of offspring / family), they are married.
Adam and Eve were put together by God, but were only married once they became "one flesh" through sexual intercourse.

Please post further refinements or explanations of this perspective, with scriptural backing, below.

 

[FollowingHim]

But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

This appears to be speaking about a man who is betrothed to a virgin. She is called "his virgin", so she belongs to him in some sense, presumably through betrothal. However, they are not yet considered married.

If he is strongly attracted to her sexually ("behaveth himself uncomely toward {her} ... and need so require"), and she has passed puberty ("the flower of her age", most likely referring to blood), they may marry. But this is presented as a second event, not the betrothal. It appears to refer specifically to sexual consummation, and only then is the marriage formed.

This is confirmed by the fact that he has the option to "keep his virgin", ie keep her as a virgin, and not his wife.

 

[MeganC]

I agree. Steve and I are not legally married but were married in the church and on our wedding night it was very clear that he was committed to me and it was also very clear for me that there was no turning back. Then when I found out I was pregnant (with twins!) that commitment was even greater. Since then I don't think of myself as anything other than his wife and I can only call what we have a marriage because nothing else describes it.

 

[Mojo]

I will bump this thread to help in the discussion in another thread.

One of my main problems with this viewpoint is..."What if a virgin's first sexual encounter is with her father....incest?

Is she married to her father?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I will bump this thread to help in the discussion in another thread.

One of my main problems with this viewpoint is..."What if a virgin's first sexual encounter is with her father....incest?

Is she married to her father?

No because he's supposed to be dead.

 

[Mojo]

Is she married to him up until the time of his death, then becomes a widow?

Note: I am not "arguing". I'm just asking questions. I want to know how this position works out.

 

[eye4them]

@Mojo, I believe it is not "sex with virgin" = marriage, but rather it is "sex with eligible virgin" = marriage. I believe that eligibility of the virgin depends on her and the man. If she's betrothed, she's not eligible for any man other than the one who betrothed her. It also depends on the man; if she is a prohibited relation in Lev 18/20. For example we have Lev 18:17 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter", (I'm sure that prohibits a man from "laying" with his daughter), and perhaps even Lev 20:14 also. There might be other eligibility requirements also, I don't mean to propose that this is an exhaustive list.

So I would think that if she is not eligible, there is no marriage as a result of sex. At least not in a legal sense. But, spiritually? I find that hard to answer.

 

[Isaac]

Question in regards to those that believe that sex alone = marriage. I was thinking about this today after seeing the topic come up on the other thread and this verse came to mind.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

From this, I read that sex (rape) occurs and THEN she becomes his wife after paying the father. If sex alone = marriage, then why is the marrying the woman mentioned as not yet taking place. Am I misreading this? Is it because was rape and not consensual? And what about the whole IF they’re found out? So if no one finds out, they’re not married, even though they had sex?

I’m in the same boat as Mojo and curious about this position. And how this verse is addressed.

*Disclaimer - I am NOT a rapist and do not plan on adding another wife by those means.

 

[FollowingHim2]

No because he's supposed to be dead.

Can you please show me where specifically it says that if a man has sex with his daughter he is to be put to death? Because I can't find it.

 

[Mojo]

Thank you @FollowingHim2 and @Isaac. To add to this, what if the incest is not found out because the daughter is afraid to report? Is she guilty of adultery or polyandry once she marries another man?

 

[Mojo]

@Mojo, I believe it is not "sex with virgin" = marriage, but rather it is "sex with eligible virgin" = marriage. I believe that eligibility of the virgin depends on her and the man. If she's betrothed, she's not eligible for any man other than the one who betrothed her. It also depends on the man; if she is a prohibited relation in Lev 18/20. For example we have Lev 18:17 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter", (I'm sure that prohibits a man from "laying" with his daughter), and perhaps even Lev 20:14 also. There might be other eligibility requirements also, I don't mean to propose that this is an exhaustive list.

So I would think that if she is not eligible, there is no marriage as a result of sex. At least not in a legal sense. But, spiritually? I find that hard to answer.

Thanks for the reply, but are there verses to support the exclusion clause of "eligible"?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Is she married to him up until the time of his death, then becomes a widow?

Note: I am not "arguing". I'm just asking questions. I want to know how this position works out.

I would think it would need the physical.

 

[Mojo]

I would think it would need the physical.

Huh?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Question in regards to those that believe that sex alone = marriage. I was thinking about this today after seeing the topic come up on the other thread and this verse came to mind.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

From this, I read that sex (rape) occurs and THEN she becomes his wife after paying the father. If sex alone = marriage, then why is the marrying the woman mentioned as not yet taking place. Am I misreading this? Is it because was rape and not consensual? And what about the whole IF they’re found out? So if no one finds out, they’re not married, even though they had sex?

I’m in the same boat as Mojo and curious about this position. And how this verse is addressed.

*Disclaimer - I am NOT a rapist and do not plan on adding another wife by those means.

I was getting really nervous till i got to the disclaimer... what a relief!

 

[Keith Martin]

I will bump this thread to help in the discussion in another thread.

One of my main problems with this viewpoint is..."What if a virgin's first sexual encounter is with her father....incest?

Is she married to her father?

No because he's supposed to be dead.

Can you please show me where specifically it says that if a man has sex with his daughter he is to be put to death? Because I can't find it.

I think @ZecAustin was being humorous about how the father should be a dead man, because that's what common sense would suggest as an appropriate outcome for a father who would participate in such an arrangement.

I've begun work on a book specifically about some of the unexpected conclusions one can come to if one explores Leviticus 18 with logic. The bottom line is that some relationships are clearly prohibited (including fathers and daughters or mothers and sons), but it's very common for casual Bible readers to assume that everything listed in Leviticus 18 is prohibited. Other threads have discussed the most commonly-mentioned exception to it just being a list of blanket prohibitions: not being allowed to marry one's wife's sister in order to vex her. Logic demands that this be interpreted as only preventing the marrying of sisters in a situation in which it was done to vex her (Lev. 18:18: "And you shall not take a woman to be a rival to her sister, by exposing her nakedness to her in her lifetime." CVOT), because otherwise we are attempting to minimize God's Divine Language by treating the phrase, "to be a rival to her sister," as if it's superfluous. Why mention vexing in this one particular potential nakedness-uncovering option if it wasn't meant as a qualification?

And what you don't find is God informing Moses et al that they were not to lay with their sons or daughters only if they were doing so in order to vex them. The Leviticus 18 prohibitions were written in the context of assuming that sexual intercourse and marriage were metaphorically attached at the hip, so it couldn't be clearer that a daughter wouldn't be married to her father just because the two had sex with each other, no matter whether it was coerced or consensual.

Lastly, I also can't find where Scripture asserts that a man is to be put to death for having sex with his daughter, but, @FollowingHim2, if you read Leviticus 18:24-30, you'll find that it's a behavior that will certainly not go unpunished.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

I will bump this thread to help in the discussion in another thread.

One of my main problems with this viewpoint is..."What if a virgin's first sexual encounter is with her father....incest?

Is she married to her father?

Or any form of family incest for that matter--uncle, brother, grandfather, step-father? It's happening in our very broken world and on top of all the emotional mess the girl is dealing with as a result of being violated, she's then faced with all the wrangling that is being discussed in this thread--trying to figure out where she stands now and how to try to move forward in life--often without the support of other males in the family or church for that matter!

 

[Keith Martin]

I'm now an old man, but even so please know I forgive anyone whose mind whirls trying to keep up with the various careers I've had in my life. One, though, was as a psychotherapist, and my specialty was sexuality in general and, for a time, childhood sexual abuse. So please don't be shocked when I write that it's a mistake to assume that every father-daughter sexual relationship involves the girl being violated by her father. Some involve adult daughters and their fathers, which inherently removes even most of the power to coerce that would have been the case between a father and his minor child. Some involve the daughters being the pursuer. Of course, in most cases, a father/daughter sexual relationship will involve violation, but even in Scripture we have examples of daughters seducing their fathers. [I even had a close friend four decades ago who was able to convince me that she had initiated a 6-year sexual relationship with her own father, and I never observed evidence to refute her assertion that the relationship had been anything but beneficial to both her and her father, a relationship that began after she moved back home in the wake of her mother's death.] People make choices all the time that don't compute for most of us.

Having said that, my previous paragraph only addresses the secular end of things. Scripture is another thing. Many behaviors that society at large accepts or encourages are either discouraged or prohibited in Scripture. It's important, though, to be certain we're being rigorous in our study of Scripture before coming to firm conclusions for our own understanding -- and certainly before feeling justified in condemning others for their behavior. Those of us in this crowd can readily recognize how unfair it is for other Christians to dismiss polygamy out of hand, but we can easily be guilty of doing the same thing about other, similar, issues by unnecessarily condemning either others or ourselves. It's important as well that, as Paul wrote in 2 Timothy, we "rightly divide" the Divine Word, which creates an imperative to read everything in context and to acknowledge that not everything in Scripture applies to us as individuals -- and, if that's so, then not everything applies to everyone else we might want to apply it to. It's even debatable if Leviticus 18 still applies to those of us who have never been Israelites and to whom the Grace of God wasn't directed until after Pentecost. But one thing is for sure about it: even subsequent to the Law having been fulfilled, and even if the original 10 Commandments aren't still in effect, the conclusion is unavoidable that the directives in Leviticus 18 are beneficially useful for every one of us. And that includes refraining from initiating or sustaining sexual relationships with near kin as elaborated upon in that chapter.

 

[FollowingHim2]

So please don't be shocked when I write that it's a mistake to assume that every father-daughter sexual relationship involves the girl being violated by her father. Some involve adult daughters and their fathers, which inherently removes even most of the power to coerce that would have been the case between a father and his minor child. Some involve the daughters being the pursuer. Of course, in most cases, a father/daughter sexual relationship will involve violation, but even in Scripture we have examples of daughters seducing their fathers. [I even had a close friend four decades ago who was able to convince me that she had initiated a 6-year sexual relationship with her own father, and I never observed evidence to refute her assertion that the relationship had been anything but beneficial to both her and her father, a relationship that began after she moved back home in the wake of her mother's death.] People make choices all the time that don't compute for most of us.

I watched a documentary once about brothers and sisters that were in relationships. They were in love, it wasn't just about sex. But one of the main reasons was because they were so similar. They'd found someone who was raised the same way, who had the same values, similar personality, and who they knew they got on with. They'd lived with them their whole lives already. So although we know it's wrong, I do understand them ending up in that place.
People also tend to pick a partner based on looks. They will choose someone who likes look them, whether they realise it or not. In the pre marriage course that Samuel and I did (looking back that was a bit of a waste of time....but anyway), there were 3 other couples, and all of them looked very similar to each other. It makes sense therefore, that someone would choose a close family member since they will look similar to them.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Lastly, I also can't find where Scripture asserts that a man is to be put to death for having sex with his daughter, but, @FollowingHim2, if you read Leviticus 18:24-30, you'll find that it's a behavior that will certainly not go unpunished.

The only place I am aware of that might indicate that is the verse that prohibits a man from marrying a woman AND her daughter. That did carry the death penalty...for the woman too! So this discussion about what constitutes marriage may help in understanding if incest is the same biblically as marriage, =a cohabiting sexual relationship, then maybe dad would get taken out and stoned.
It is always a good idea to study, and withhold judgment until the truth of a matter is clear.

 

[mystic]

brothers and sisters [had] found someone who was raised the same way, who had the same values, similar personality, and who they knew they got on with. […] People also tend to pick a partner based on looks. […] It makes sense therefore, that someone would choose a close family member since they will look similar to them.

On the other hand, the Westermarck Effect is a name for the idea that "people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to sexual attraction." (The thesis is quite sensible to me, no matter whether it accounts for the taboo on such relations — an idea noted in the above-linked Wikipedia article — or merely complements the taboo.)