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Apostacy

Tlaloc

Tlaloc

Member
To my knowledge there are two major views in regaurd to apostacy of belivers. One that they where professing but never actually beliving or transforming, and two that someone may be reborn and fall from grace.

I should note that I don't think this topic has enough application to merit get heated, I'm merely interested in peoples views to hone my own.

The first camp generally has a line like 'you can't snatch someone out of the hands of God.' and tends to be more popular in general.

I have good teachers in both camps, I'm inclined to think the second view more scriptural, though the first is not to my knowledge totally negated. My experience with apostates whom, while professing, I worked to mature (and I've seen too many of them) did not suprise me when they turned away. There where many teltale signs in mannerism, in attitude, and in personal philosiphy. There may be some truely surprising turns away from faith, but I do not know of any truely surprising or unpredictable ones. To that end in practice I give the first proposition to possible be true, though that does not negate the second.

Thats all I have to say on that untill someone bites.
 
Not to bite on the theology bait, I do know that one group backslides and then rededicates their life to God. And the other group loses their salvation and gets resaved. However, the prayer and heart attitude towards God as this happens is similar for both.
 
Much can be said about this topic, but I have always felt like the "once saved, always saved" line left a lot to be desired in the way of Scriptural support, if we are to work out our own salvation with "fear and trembling".

To my mind, the most fear and trembling-inspiring verse in all of the Bible is Yeshua's warning in Matthew 7:22-23:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity ('without Torah').
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I heartily recommend (again, in this case) a couple of books by Stewart Best, called Poor Lost Christian and available online at:

http://www.poorlostchristian.com/chap01.htm

Blessings,
Mark
 
Though I am not a formally trained Biblical scholar, (e.g., I had to look up the word apostasy - lol) :oops: , I believe that if the actual definition which I found is applied, only the latter situation can actually be called apostasy. The definition that I found is as follows...

APOSTASY — a falling away from the faith.

Ronald F. Youngblood, general editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, consulting editors, Nelson’s new illustrated Bible dictionary: An authoritative one-volume reference work on the Bible with full color illustrations [computer file], electronic edition of the revised edition of Nelson’s illustrated Bible dictionary, Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.

If we use this definition, then it implies that the person actually HAD faith in God at some point and, in the case of a Christian, they believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, in order for apostasy to exist they would by definition have to ‘fall away’ from their original state of faith. The former group that you describe, I would submit were never believers to begin with. Therefore they could by definition not leave a place that they never went to in the first place. The Bible is very clear that the concept ‘once saved always saved’ is not true. I offer the following scriptures to support this truth.

Galatians 5:16-26 -

16I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Hebrews 6:4-8 -

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26-39 -

26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I have seen several people who turned from the truth and it is not pretty. There are a couple of scriptures that come to mind...

Matthew 6:22-23 -

22“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Luke 11:33-36 -

33“No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34“The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35“Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36“If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light.”

The first scripture is found in what I like to call the ‘path to perfection’, (Matthew chapters 5-7). It is in the midst of scriptures in which Jesus is talking about worldly wealth, fleshly things and how people who seek these things cannot serve God. The scripture in Luke is found in a place where Jesus was speaking about the fact that people should obey God and not need a ‘sign’ in order to be convinced to do so. I asked God one time what it meant when Jesus spoke about someone’s light becoming darkness and why it was ‘impossible’ for some of them to be returned again to repentance once they had turned away, (Hebrews 6:4-6). He showed me how it works. He showed me that the point of salvation acts as an anchor and 'pivot point'. The further one moves into the kingdom of light, the more accountability that person has. If they decide to turn to the dark side and willfully sin, then they literally flip 180 degrees into the darkness. Thus, as light as their light was, is how dark their darkness becomes. So if someone is greatly enlightened, then they turn against God, they are plunged into deep darkness. They trample on the only sacrifice for their sins and there is no longer a hope for them to enter the kingdom of God. I believe that if people are mature in the things of God and turn away, they cannot come back. If they are immature, then there may still be hope, (e.g., the prodigal son) but they should not take a chance.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
The most literel definition is 'divorce from God' but the one Ray read is the most practical one.

I should note to Weltan that I was refering to two views prevelent in Christian groups about the same event so they should be simalar. Are you refering to two distinct advents I'm not elaborating on here? I'm not shure what you mean.

It seems Mark and Dr.Ray are of the same view, and I think scriptural views tend to that view. I would be very intersted if anyone was avlible to take up the counter position though.

Yeah Mark, that section of Mathew is a big red flag warning. It is intersting that supernatural abilities are not a relibable mark of the state of someones heart. I tend to the view that supernatural gifts are gifts, and they are maintained even should the heart fall into darkness. Thats another good topic too.


Noting that the word apostacy is rooted in divorce, it follows naturally even from Torah that there would be no reconciliation. I suppose the view that they never where saved is kinder, though the view that they had it and spit on it is closer to reality.
 
Noting that the word apostacy is rooted in divorce, it follows naturally even from Torah that there would be no reconciliation. I suppose the view that they never where saved is kinder, though the view that they had it and spit on it is closer to reality.
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I agree, Tlaloc - particularly when it comes to the adultery/idolatry duality, and the repeated metaphor of divorce. Yeshua's use of the imagery "I never knew you", in that verse, which I contend is to be understood clearly in the complete, and ultimately most literal, Biblical sense, is key to understanding.

Stewart Best's work is helpful in outlining why there is a difference between our "knocking" or "asking", or even receiving some gifts of the Ruach (Holy Spirit), and the separate, later, act of Him, as the Master, the King, the Bridegroom, later coming to know us. From that understanding, it is clear why a subsequent act of adultery (knowing rebellion) is so much more damaging than ignorance.

...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. -- Luke 12:48



Blessings,
Mark
 
Jair,

I agree with you 100% that the gifts God gives us are permanent and that Satan just perverts them in those who turn away. I have seen this several times.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
I understand the two points you state for discussion. One point of those not actually ever being a Christian and the other of falling away. You are correct that my point would not have applied to the first of never being a Christian but to the second and falling away and the later discussion of 'once saved always' or not.

The problem of falling from grace is how that is determined. If it is just sin that happens and causes us to fall away then we are back to square one as even the best of us sin from time to time. If it is an actuall profession and position of the heart that Christ is from this point on rejected and the cross is no longer desired then, God is the judge in that case.

Why it is confusing is because we are not taught to be led by the Spirit into righteousness and virtue. First, we can not lead ourselves into righteousness, if so, we would have already have done so. The Holy Spirit and righteousness are often just considered positive nice terms and not an actual Holy Spirit and righteousness and virtue as actual things.

I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
Job 29:13-15
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
Mark 5:29-31
And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.
Luke 6:18-20
And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
Luke 8:45-47
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:4-6

To requote DrRay777
Galatians 5:16-26 -

16I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law...

This verse shows that the contention against sin is handled by walking in the Spirit, and is an ongoing activity by the Holy Spirit. In verse 18 we are to be led by the Spirit and then we are not under the law. And I am not saying the law is not proper, but that Christ sending the Holy Spirit is comfort of our safety as the penalty is covered on the cross.
 
I think that with some 34,000 known Christian Denominations, and each denomination with a body of theologians ready to explain each churches view, and each denomination believing that the other 33,999 are at least partly if not entirely apostate, that probably everyone of us is apostate by that standard. So the odds are 34000:1 that I am not apostate.

Add to that, the 2,100,000,000 members of these denominations who believed that just about everyone but them and a few close friends are apostate, chances are 2,100,000,000 :1 that I am deficient in holiness by most Christian standards.

There are about 5,000 members in my last denomination. Having more than one wife would be considered apostasy by 90% of my old family. So by their standard, the odds are 4,500:1 in favor of me being apostate.

Among my eight or ten closest friends, I am a G-d fearing, obedient servant of the living God, with maybe a few character flaws. By their standard, I hit pretty close to 100%.

I have preformed good, and I have preformed evil as a believer. My hope is my God is more merciful than the pointers out of blasphemy and apostasy. I accept no accusations by my enemies, and only accept criticism from those who have some kind of investment in me.

~ Rusty
 
With those odds, it's a good thing there is no such thing as luck when talking about salvation. Bought and adopted are we.
 
The other side of the coin.

Seeing the prevelent view here I sought out skilled teachers on the once saved always saved view. The key is in the term reprobate, which is a term dealing with apprasal of coiniage ect. I don't need to say that the term reprobate is used quite a lot, like the call at the end of second Corinthians to examine you'reselves lest ye be fount reprobates. Basically it means counterfit, it means a coin that is too light or too heavy and thus made of baser (or insuffitient) metals and thus is a forgery.

The illistration is a counterfit that looks real and may even be used and traded, but never actually was the real thing.

To that end I think I may have come to a synthisis of positions, which I'll lay out for apprasial.


In terms of ultimite end and predestination they never where heaven bound, they where always wanting and never could pass for the real deal under apprasial. To that end we must examine ourselves if we are found wanting, or rather examine ourselves by the holy spirit. No one else could certinly tell if we where real or a forgery, nor are we skilled enough to tell about others on that level, God is the Judge and apprasier.

In terms of what we can see, we can see people come to God, pretend to be, and we can see them when they fully turn and renounce God, and know they are dark and lost in darkness.

That is perhaps a functional synthisis?


Weltan,
I suppose the when of falling from grace is open to discussion as well. So far I had it placed at openly and loudly denouncing God and the faith. This is to me the only fully clear mark, and I've seen it happen. In one case my church abode with helping someone through a great deal of evil and sin, and worked with him to help him for several months as he fell into it, but as soon as he denounced God he was thrown out, there was nothing more we could do. There may be stricter definitions of when the fall occours, though I am not party to them myself.

Rusty,
Thank God our salvation is not based on orthodoxy.
Of course if Churches are seen as the brides instead of a bride there is a lot of room for differences in minor doctrines as there are different relationships with Christ. If we are to be one church and one orthodoxy then we're all damned.

Ray,
Very interesting, its very helpfull to see someone else with the same understanding of gifts as I do. So many will leave unnopposed anyone with the sligtest ability of healing or prophecy even when they spew garbage. Certinly they got the gifts when they where loyal, though at the time I met them they are certinly not. I wonder how many of the dark arts where gifts given millenia ago, perverted, and passed down. Of course demons are correctly associated with dark arts, but demons are less potent than people give them credit for, and the best demon summoner I know is an apostate.
 
I wonder if there are any passages in the bible that can be so construed so that salvation becomes a thing or a substance in which to be contained?

I just believe that if a person of sufficient age accepts the pardon of Christ by calling on His name through water baptism (acts 22:16), then that person then has a clear conscience, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21. In a divinely legal sense, the participant becomes a new person and should then live in this new identity and no longer in the old one, Colossians 3:9. If we sin again, then we must confess our sin and he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.- 1 John 1:9.
 
If we sin again, then we must confess our sin and he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.- 1 John 1:9.
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Provided, of course, we turn from that sin. (literally tshuvah in the Hebrew, or 'repent')

I don't think that verse was intended to be read as a "Get Out of Hell Free" card - so we can sin more, that grace might abound... ;)
 
I've never heard it used in that sense, as a get out of hell free card. That's not to say that there aren't many that believe in 'cheap grace.'
 
Memphis,

I could say 'The helmet of salvation' but I would be taking a metaphor literally, and committing a short list of other errors in proper Bible reading. Suffice it to say I see you're point, but its going to take some reading for me to get back to you on it, so I apologize but I'm going to defer a proper response till later. Thanks for that, of course you're right salvation represents an action not an object, that kind of changes the game of the conversation a bit.
 
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