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Beautiful Maasai Family: Three Wives, No Jealousy
- Thread starter raulus
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Fascinating video
Thanks for sharing it with us.
A couple days ago, I had an extended conversation with a coworker originally from Africa regarding the subject of polygamy. His father had three wives and nineteen total children. They lived in a family compound similar to that seen here (he is not Maasi).
We have talked about this subject before, and I've made it clear to him that I believe the Bible teaches polygyny to be legitimate marriage. He agrees with that.
I am curious about what polygamous life is like, and asked him a number of questions.
He said that the whole family ate together, with the wives switching off on cooking duty.
He said they all called all the moms "mom", and that the other moms would freely discipline the children (often with one's own mom being present and laughing at you).
He said he felt close to all of his siblings and didn't think any differently of his "half" siblings than his "full" siblings.
All in all, he didn't have anything bad to say about it.
Very interesting. I love how normal it is for them. I love to hear how they make things work, so fascinating. Everyone molds around the man of the house and seek the betterment of the family. It is all so beautiful to me.
I find it interesting too that we're the most Christianized nation in the world, yet Africa, parts of Asia, and the Middle East keep a much more biblical marriage than we do. Not just speaking on multiple wives, but the fact that the man has the ability to take more than one, biblical wifely submission, and strength and masculinity, which was so prevalent throughout reading the biblical world.
Looking at these cultures on these aspects, feels like I'm looking back into the world of David, or Elkanah. A vestige of the past, is what it feels like.
There is really nothing not normal about it.
I never could wrap my mind around jealousy.
I never could wrap my mind around jealousy.
So I assume that you'd believe jealousy to be solely from the heart, and not due to a circumstance?
I think (based solely on my own experience) that jealousy is partly due to insecurity. If I really thought that my support came strictly from my husband and his efforts I wouldn't want to tax or drain that supply. But when I keep in mind that our blessings come from an infinite creator, I have no problem sharing whatever we have.
If you see any family member as a burden, you'll see them all that way. If you see them as blessings you'll see them all that way.
I feel very blessed to be a wife, mom, and now a friend and support to my sisterwife. That her son looks to me when she's gone is a sweet honor.
What we have is by His grace/favor. You can't store it, or hord it. It goes further shared. The most valuable things aren't things....they are people. That is what makes this such a blessing. We get the rare opportunity to make loved friends family.
If you see any family member as a burden, you'll see them all that way. If you see them as blessings you'll see them all that way.
I feel very blessed to be a wife, mom, and now a friend and support to my sisterwife. That her son looks to me when she's gone is a sweet honor.
What we have is by His grace/favor. You can't store it, or hord it. It goes further shared. The most valuable things aren't things....they are people. That is what makes this such a blessing. We get the rare opportunity to make loved friends family.
I agree it's fascinating. Almost enviable. I have a theory that, in their case, it has less to do with being "Christianized" (Catholicized?) or not, and more to do with being more or fewer iterations removed from the first civilizations. The most ancient civilizations that we have any evidence of had laws and customs shockingly close to those of the Hebrews. Adhering to traditions (not moving the boundary stones of their fathers) has kept these "primitive" civilizations closer to the truth that they ALL originally were intimate with, regardless of what language they used to describe it. All can trace their lineage back to Noah, after all. Each collapse/rebirth/mingling of civilizations down the lines of time equated to essentially playing a game of telephone with those traditions which represented the truth. Here we are now, claiming to be wise, but became fools with a totally obscure and perverted sense of truth, while these forgotten peoples have been mostly undisturbed in their remembrance of the truth as it was passed down to them, whether they understand it's meaning or not.
I recall the story of some Mennonite missionaries who went to a remote primitive tribe and preached to them. The natives had their own version of the creation story, and easily understood the Biblical account, recognized the discrepencies in theirs, and accepted the Biblical version as authentic. I think that understanding also lended itself to their ease of understanding and acceptance of salvation, as it is pictured in the sum of creation all around us if we are not blind. When they were told about evolutionists, they laughed. But, when you think about it, how much easier was it for them to accept salvation than a "learned" man of today? This pathway to understanding and accepting salvation is why I think this Biblical marriage ministry, with insistence on the legitimacy of polygyny and the authority of the male, is beneficial, not superficial, and worth pursuing.
I have an unpopular view of jealously, I actually think it's normal. Women want men to provide, love and lead, if he has other women and other children there's a possibility that all of those things are spread thinner. It's almost survival- instinctive for a woman to be concerned about how other wives and children will effect her, not only emotionally but rationally. Whether any of those things are actually effected is another story however the concern is still valid.
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It's valid, but evidence of a scarcity mindset and lack of trust. Totally understandable when that trust isn't proven to be warranted, but the onus is upon the untrusting person to vet the trustworthiness of the other, and push past that scarcity mindset. To be vulnerable enough to be hurt is the only way to actually have a relationship. Otherwise you're just waiting and expecting the axe to drop so long that eventually the other person gets tired of the lack of real intimacy and they drop the axe, proving that the untrusting person was "right all along".
Not saying "trust everyone". Just have the self awareness that your scarcity mindset and lack of trust is a thing, it will negatively affect your future relationships, and only you can change it. Until you own that part of yourself, you will be unlikely to have a deep and abiding intimacy with any man.
Jealousy is like pain, it's a signal that something might be wrong, letting you know you need to pay attention. If you let that pain control you, then you're gonna have a bad time mmkay? Let it be a signal that you need to communicate and move past that pokey emotional spot, not a pain that you sink into like a smooshy couch.
There's my $2 of un-askedfor advice.
Ladies need to be taught that the time to figure out whether to trust him (ie. judge him) is before they accept the ring.
After they accept it, their focus needs to be how to work with him. It is too late at that point to decide that he can’t be trusted and you must jealously judge what he is doing.
Because jealously is judging that he isn’t worthy of being trusted.
Of course, twinges of jealousy are a normal temptation from the enemy, not much different from the twinges of jealousy a man might feel about another man’s wife. It’s merely a temptation and needs to be dealt with as such. Feeding it and letting it grow because “it’s natural” has damaged or destroyed many relationships.
I think you are both likely correct, in different ways. I'd like to get to the bottom of this, hopefully biblically, because this is a great question of mine. Your response, @Joleneakamama is a refreshing game-changing perspective(for me at least, because I'm new here), likely coming from a place of wisdom and experience dealing with the matter. Your sentiment seems to relate more to these African ladies. A very pro-polygyny way of thinking, that any man would be glad to have in a wife. But I personally relate more to @LovesDogs perspective, thinking of my own past, and see that that is how my own wife feels as well. I do think that is the normal train of thought on the matter, at least speaking for us western folk. This is possibly how Leah from the bible felt as well, and you could say God too, as an explanation to why he restricted Rachel's childbearing. It seems He wanted Jacob to love her more than He did. That Leah did potentially suffer due to scarcity of supply, potentially disliked in comparison to the 'fairer' model.
“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon.”
Genesis 29:33
“And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?”
Genesis 30:1-2
Honestly, I can say that Jacob and how he dealt with his wives is the most problematic testimony that we have for polygyny. The story tackles the scarcity mindset head-on. This is always used as ammo against why Christians shouldn't have more than one wife, or why people say that it is "unideal". I handle this argument by saying that Jacob was in the wrong for diminishing his first wife. We see in this instance, that God is on the side of Leah, so Jacob must of been wrong in loving one and hating the other. He wasn't being a Jesus-like shepherd of a husband to both wives, in love. But this account does give credence to this side of perceiving jeslousy, to an extent.
Maybe with this being said, the husband also has a hand to play in the jealousy of his wife or wives? I think it's a fair surmise. If Jacob had loved Leah more, would Rachel had conceived more children? And would Leah had been so miserable?
Biblically in KJV, the word mainly used in conjunction with Jealousy in the english language, is envy. Here is the word origin of envy,
late 13c., from Old French envie "envy, jealousy, rivalry" (10c.), from Latin invidia "envy, jealousy" (source also of Spanish envidia, Portuguese inveja), from invidus "envious, having hatred or ill-will," from invidere "to envy, hate," earlier "look at (with malice), cast an evil eye upon," from in-"upon" (from PIE root *en "in") + videre "to see" (from PIE root *weid- "to see").
A question for the topic too, is how do we explain the jealousy of God? How does his jealousy tie into the equation? What can we learn from Him, is it then okay for a husband to be Jealous, or people in general?
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And here are some pertinent bible verses related to envy and jealousy. I won't put too many, then it'd be exhaustive:
“the LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.”
Deuteronomy 29:20
“But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.”
Acts 17:5
“or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.”
Numbers 5:30
“So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.”
Zechariah 1:14
“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, And by a foolish nation I will anger you.”
Romans 10:19
“So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.”
Ezekiel 16:42
“Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 9:6
“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”
Titus 3:3
“They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”
Deuteronomy 32:21
“he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,”
1 Timothy 6:4
“Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; But who is able to stand before envy?”
Proverbs 27:4
“Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:”
Philippians 1:15
“Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,”
1 Corinthians 13:4
I'd like to know the thoughts of you all on envy, and jealousy, in the context of verses. I lean towards seeing it as a normal response, but having to do with many aspects of spirituality and wisdom too. Choosing to love instead of envy, to just accept things as they come, or to see it as a gift from God, is a very mature, possibly even spiritually mature response. With kids even, sharing toys is often taught, but is it natural for them to desire to, without being taught? I lean towards saying no. If they could, they would keep it all to themselves. This is why I think an angry and jealous first wife is very relatable to having an only child mindset, when it comes to jealousy. Most of them have never been taught that a man can have more than one wife, and suffer the same exact way as an only child gaining a sibling after so many years--it is in the same vein of jealousy, but obviously, worse.
And looking at it from this perspective, maybe it does have to do with how the wife is trained up from a child in her teachings and why some Maasai women can do it much easier. Just something to think about.
“Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
Proverbs 22:6
“the LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.”
Deuteronomy 29:20
“But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.”
Acts 17:5
“or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.”
Numbers 5:30
“So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.”
Zechariah 1:14
“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, And by a foolish nation I will anger you.”
Romans 10:19
“So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.”
Ezekiel 16:42
“Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 9:6
“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”
Titus 3:3
“They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”
Deuteronomy 32:21
“he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,”
1 Timothy 6:4
“Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; But who is able to stand before envy?”
Proverbs 27:4
“Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:”
Philippians 1:15
“Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,”
1 Corinthians 13:4
I'd like to know the thoughts of you all on envy, and jealousy, in the context of verses. I lean towards seeing it as a normal response, but having to do with many aspects of spirituality and wisdom too. Choosing to love instead of envy, to just accept things as they come, or to see it as a gift from God, is a very mature, possibly even spiritually mature response. With kids even, sharing toys is often taught, but is it natural for them to desire to, without being taught? I lean towards saying no. If they could, they would keep it all to themselves. This is why I think an angry and jealous first wife is very relatable to having an only child mindset, when it comes to jealousy. Most of them have never been taught that a man can have more than one wife, and suffer the same exact way as an only child gaining a sibling after so many years--it is in the same vein of jealousy, but obviously, worse.
And looking at it from this perspective, maybe it does have to do with how the wife is trained up from a child in her teachings and why some Maasai women can do it much easier. Just something to think about.
“Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
Proverbs 22:6
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So by what you're saying it is more of an issue of modernism, and the ideological trappings within modernism? Like feminism, progressivism, looking down on the past and traditions, thinking too highly of our own technological prowess, etc. that has removed us from this fullness of marriage that we see in Maasai?
For American Christians though, who often tout sola scriptura, there must be some traditions that are also in the way of perceiving the matter correctly. It is indefensible to be anti-polygyny and sola scriptura. There are no anti-polygyny verses in the bible but a plethora of pro-polygyny verses. What causes God fearing Christians to just deny the fullness of marriage as scripture states it? I think strong tradition is partly the culprit. It is taboo to even question this subject. I personally believe for each person there is probably something that comes into their life and pushes them to research this subject, even being potentially Holy Spirit led. I don't believe it is even in a regular Western person's frame of thought to come to this naturally, due to strong tradition.
I completely agree with you on how the primitive cultures are more connected to Noah and original marriage than we are. Culturally, they think biblically about marriage. That is a very beautiful thing, and enviable like you said. A man need not go through backlash and cultural shaming in doing something honorable by God in their culture, unlike ours.
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I loved the video. I think the most important lesson from the video was her statement, "I learned to be happy." She was given away to a man she didn't know at a young age and was still full of joy with her life. The video didn't mention religion, so we don't know what she believes, but the lesson about happiness/joy is very powerful.
On the topic of jealousy, I was listening to Doug Wilson the other day and he pointed out that if another man hits on your wife she wants you to intervene. A man should jealously guard his wife. God is a jealous God. Applying that idea to the illustration of husbands representing Christ and wives representing the church, Christ jealously guards us from evil, but the church should not jealously guard Christ from being shared. The same goes for wives not jealously guarding their husbands from other (potential) wives.
On the topic of jealousy, I was listening to Doug Wilson the other day and he pointed out that if another man hits on your wife she wants you to intervene. A man should jealously guard his wife. God is a jealous God. Applying that idea to the illustration of husbands representing Christ and wives representing the church, Christ jealously guards us from evil, but the church should not jealously guard Christ from being shared. The same goes for wives not jealously guarding their husbands from other (potential) wives.
Jealousy is entirely appropriate in some situations. If your wife is lip-locked with another guy and wrapping her leg around him, it is the only reasonable response.
Let’s not judge Jacob too harshly, he had 7 years of hard labor stolen from his life and was given a wife that he didn’t want. It would be pretty natural for him to have some level of resentment towards her.
But Yah wanted what Yah wanted, which may have been twelve tribes from the loins of 4 different women, and an example of an over-the-top patriarchy. One that we can look at and realize how bad we don’t have it.
Edit: Remember that we have the whole of Scripture to compare our situations with and see how to deal with things in a Godly manner. The patriarchs who will living these examples were flying blind. They had no idea that their decisions were going to be teachings for us millenniums later. They were in the moment with human feelings and distractions.
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It's refreshing to see someone put so much thought into the jealously issue, thank you. I find it interesting myself, it feels like too often jealousy is easily dismissed as a woman just being emotional, having a cold heart, influenced by feminism or not trusting her husband enough. I'm sure some of those things do influence, however I don't think it's that simple.
Also I feel like many women can relate to the way @Joleneakamama feels, that's what makes polygamy so appealing. They just have some feelings of jealously into the mix as well.
Very often a little child feels jealousy when a new baby arrives. They learn to get over it. As someone alluded to, that's a bit of learning many today don't get. So in part this is natural.
But so is a carnal nature.
God has a right to be jealous over His people committing adultery with other Gods. As does a husband. It is a monogamous, matriarchal mindset that has a wife feeling jealously over some other woman stealing what 'is hers'.
A man who finds a wife finds a good thing, and as my wife pointed out one time, she loves me and so wants good things for me.
But so is a carnal nature.
God has a right to be jealous over His people committing adultery with other Gods. As does a husband. It is a monogamous, matriarchal mindset that has a wife feeling jealously over some other woman stealing what 'is hers'.
A man who finds a wife finds a good thing, and as my wife pointed out one time, she loves me and so wants good things for me.
They feel what the adults around them condition them to feel. If the adults are worried about the child being jealous, tell the child not to be jealous and that they'll still love them just as much, and generally think negatively about it - the child will be jealous. On the other hand, if the parents are simply excited about the new addition and get the child excited about the new addition too and helping, the child will not be jealous but excited.
We have 7 children, and to my knowledge never had a problem with older children being jealous of the baby. Because we never expected it, so it didn't happen. Instead, our toddlers would come and give their most precious toys to the baby to express their love for them.
I expect it's the same with wives. The culture will largely dictate the presence or absence of jealousy. In the West we can expect jealousy because it's a reflection of the society women have been exposed to all their lives, and it will take a conscious effort for any woman to set this aside.
When our 2nd was born, our oldest child did have some issues. But it wasn't jealousy. I think you could look at it from that mindset and see it as that if you wanted to though. He had previously only had one night away from us, and he was away for 2 with his grandparents. Then he came back home and everything was different. There was a baby in the house. The routine was different.
So, he threw tantrums, and he was deliberately doing things he knew he wasn't allowed to do, like playing with the phone. We kept the rules the same, disciplined him the same, kept his routine as close to what it had been as we could. He was fine in 2 days. He never directed any of this grumpiness towards the new baby at all.
None of the other children did this. I think that it's different for a first born.
Well said @FollowingHim!
We have nine children and never saw jealousy, just love and acceptance. Even when adding a sisterwife and her son. All our children had a welcoming attitude to the new family members... even my daughter in law!
The most recent change has our oldest daughter having to look at who her dad is talking to though, as he now uses all the same terms of endearment for his other sweetheart too! We just look to see who he's talking to. Sometimes he'll say darling one, or darling two. Lol
We have nine children and never saw jealousy, just love and acceptance. Even when adding a sisterwife and her son. All our children had a welcoming attitude to the new family members... even my daughter in law!
The most recent change has our oldest daughter having to look at who her dad is talking to though, as he now uses all the same terms of endearment for his other sweetheart too! We just look to see who he's talking to. Sometimes he'll say darling one, or darling two. Lol