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Christian motivation...

NeoPatriarch

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Real Person
Male
Just thinking out loud...

For years I have seen this debate and always without fail framed as a defense.

Is there a way to "put the ball in their court"? ...and Perhaps put the MOP on the defensive?

Is there a way to lead with the needs of widows and single women, followed by the obligation of the church?
Perhaps then followed by a discussion of the purposes of marriage.

Why do churches not supply for widows?
Why do men not visit widows and orphans in their affliction? (that sounds like a church ministry)
Why do churches not supply husbands and fathers when they could?

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This is a powerful scripture...no wonder churches shy away from the term "religion".

Anywho, I appologize for the stream of consciousness style, but somethings coming into focus. I was thinking some of you might be able to help me nail it down.

God Bless,

Robert
 
WOW! I just had lunch with a long time friend I had not seen for about two years yesterday and brought up this very thing...

Why do churches not supply for widows? - Because the church has conformed to the government and given the government the responsibility for the things it does not wish to deal with.

Why do men not visit widows and orphans in their affliction? (that sounds like a church ministry) - They are too busy playing with their Monster Trucks and other toys...

Why do churches not supply husbands and fathers when they could? - That would violate their demonic doctrine of monogamy...

Wow this was an easy one... : D
 
Martain Madan put MOP on the defensive over women's issues at large. Have you read or heard of Thelyphethora? Its very useful for an offensive.

Why do churches not supply husbands and fathers when they could? - That would violate their demonic doctrine of monogamy...

It pretty much says that (though it does not use the term demonic) and it adds with evidence that the church actively encourages the existence of single mothers and prostitutes by freeing a married man from the obligation to take care of whomever he defiles. Not much has changed really, though
 
Martin Madan was a man ahead of his time. How clearly what he writes reflects what we see. Almost prophetic.
 
Tlaloc said:
It pretty much says that (though it does not use the term demonic) and it adds with evidence that the church actively encourages the existence of single mothers and prostitutes by freeing a married man from the obligation to take care of whomever he defiles. Not much has changed really, though

:shock:
 
I guess I should explain,

Martain Madan founded and worked as Chaplin of locks womens hospital in London for a couple decades before he wrote his work. The title literally means 'on the female ruin'. He worked with women such as prostitutes, abandon women, and many others who would be considered the dregs of society for quite a long time. His work was addressed to the politicians of his day to make laws protecting women from such ill treatment, and he saw that mandatory monogamy worked out as the excuse for men to take a mistress and abandon her with child because. He also related it to prostitution and commented several times on the debauchery in the priesthood at various times (no, large scale sex scandles in the Church are not new by any stretch of the imagination)
 
Aaah, thank you, that makes sense.

:)
 
Here is a very harsh quote of his I found.

As Madan himself states "The only real and substantial difference between the ancient Jews and the Christians is this: The former took a plurality of women whom they maintained, protected and provided for agreeably to God’s word. The latter take a plurality of women and turn them out to ruin and destruction not only against God’s word but against every principle of justice and humanity. Or in other words, if the jew took as many as he could maintain, the Christian ruins as many as he can debauch...We may boast of our marriage and condemn polygamy, but there is not a nation under heaven where polygamy is more openly practised than in this Christian country, for, though a man can marry but one at a time, he may have as great a variety as he pleases without ever marrying at all...To punish a poor deserted creature for being a prostitute, when it is put out of her power to force her seducer to provide for her as the divine law enjoins, is equally cruel and foolish, not very unlike the man who threw his child into a ditch and then beat him for being dirty."
 
Re: Christian motivation 4 marrying widows

Sometimes I find myself staring down the muzzle of my own gun. It's happening again.
I am a strong believer in the marital ministry (James 1:27; 1 Cor 7:8,9; 1 Tim 5:14 and Deut 25:5ff) of believers marrying believing widows to minister to them in their "distress/affliction" (from Strong's 2347:
affliction, anguish, burden, tribulation, trouble), in their need to marry when they come under the command to marry (1 Cor 7:8,9; 1 Tim 5:14).

This ministry is how three ladies became mine. The two younger ones have since opted out of our polygyny. A 70 year old man is not a hot item in the marital market. Well I have come under conviction as to how serious I really am about this "ministry."

I was very intimate with a classmate @53 years ago and I have made the commitment to be her friend as long as possible. Her mother died when she was a small child and her father became mentally ill and abandoned her when she was in high school. She has been alone and supporting herself since the 11th grade. Then she married a rabid atheist who harassed and troubled her mercilessly for her faith, until he died of cancer about 15 years ago.
He children are abusive and exploit her shamelessly. She feels totally unloved by what family she has except for her one young granddaughter who is good to her.

She is struggling with being very controlling, co-dependent and manipulative. I tried to include her in my family's Christmas and Thanksgiving events but my first lady and my kids can't handle her. So I don't invite her anymore. Instead I try to have lunch with her once a month and around the holidays. She indicates that she is very lonely and starved for affection.

I have refrained from asking her if she wants to become one of my ladies because I'm not sure she is genuinely saved (she attends church regularly put apparently has no daily communion with Father), I am not physically attracted to her at all, I'm not sure how she feels about Biblical polygyny, and I'm afraid she might want to do polygyny with me just to get more of me. Of the two of my ladies who came on board my polygyny because they wanted more of me, one has opted out and the other is as unsubmissive as my first lady. I am not eager to get another rebel aboard, especially when I have no sexual desire for her (marriage is a sexual relationship), and she is not physically or emotionally attractive to me.

So am I being a hypocrite by dodging and delaying the possibility of polygyny with this lady? My polygyny is working so well that all my ladies are away from me and with their children and grandchildren this Christmas, leaving me to go and be with my children and grandchildren.

===========================
Marrying needy women, especially widows.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is
this: to look after [bereaved, parentless, orphaned] children
and widows [lacking husbands](5503) in their distress and to keep
oneself unstained by the world. 
(5503) ch>ra, — khay’-rah; the idea of deficiency; 
a widow (as lacking a husband), literal or figurative: — widow.

Deficiency: An abandoned, forsaken, rejected, deserted, divorced 
woman, especially a mother, has the deficiency of lacking a much needed husband. With this 
understanding, it is possible to see them under the umbrella of James 
1:27.

Godly widows, abandoned mothers and wives, especially those who are not seniors, are under God's command to marry and if they are godly and sensitive to the Spirit, they will be the most likely to respond to the opportunity to marry a godly polygynist who has a servant's heart to maritally serve such women.

***Deut 25:5If brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, his wife shall not be married to a stranger outside the family. Her husband's [single or married] brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. [If he refuses to marry her and have children by her] 9then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'

***1 Tim 514 Therefore, I want younger widows(5503=women bereft of a husband) to marry, have children, manage their households, and give the adversary no opportunity to accuse us.
(5503) ch>ra, — khay’-rah; feminine of a presumed derivative apparently
from the base of (5490) (ca>sma) through the idea of deficiency;
a widow (as lacking a husband), literal or figurative: — widow.
Thayer's Lexicon: 1) a widow, 2) metaph. a city stripped of its inhabitants and riches is represented under the figure of a widow
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 5503&t=KJV
Hebrew OT equivalent: (H488) 'almanah, a widow, of a state bereft of its king, desolate; (H491) 'almanuwth, widowhood, Israel bereft of its land
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... rongs=H490
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... rongs=H491
Thayer and Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicons: "bereft woman", i.e. deprived of or robbed of a husband, and so lacking a needed husband

***1 Cor 7: 1* ¶ But concerning the things of which you have written to me: It is good for a male not to continue -keep on - touching a woman; 2 but because of and to avoid sexual immorality each man should be [sexually] having his own woman, and each woman should be [sexually] having her own man. . . .4. The woman doesn't have [sexual] authority over her own body, but the husband [does]; in like manner also the man doesn't have [sexual] authority over his own body, but the woman [does]. 5 Do not be denying each other [sexually], unless, it may be, by consent for a time, that you may devote yourselves to fasting and prayer, and again be conjugally cohabiting [sexually reuniting], that Satan tempt you not because of your incontinency. . . . 8To the unmarried and the widows (5503=women bereft of a husband) I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they are not [Strong's 3756] continuing to restrain themselves [are not abstaining from sex sin], they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with desire.

9 But if they are not [Strong's 3756] continuing to restrain{1467} themselves [are not abstaining{1467} from sex sin], they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with desire.
9 But if they do not have self-control, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with desire. HCSB
 and if they have not continence -- they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn; YLT

The Word for the godly husband, and his godly wife if he has one, about seeing a widow, or a woman who has lost her husband or the father of her children, under command to marry and in need of a godly husband:
***1 Jn 3:16 This is how we have come to know love: He, [Jesus Christ,] laid down His Life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brethren. 17 If anyone has this world's material possessions and sees his fellow believer in need but has no pity on him, closing his heart against him, how can the Love of God be abiding in him? 18 Dear children, we should not Love with words or speech but with actions and in Truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the Truth, and how we assure and set our hearts at rest in His presence . . .

The application in the case of widows , or women who have lost their husbands or the fathers of their children, or is this:
If anyone has this world's material possessions and sees his fellow believer in need but has no pity on her, closing his heart against her, how can the Love of God be abiding in him? 18 Dear children, we should not Love with words or speech but with actions and in Truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the Truth, and how we assure and set our hearts at rest in His presence . . .

Widows and husband deficient women often have been socially, physically and emotionally abused, beaten and perhaps even "robbed"Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."  Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

"So any person who knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:16-17
 
to me, the question that has not been answered is;

what responsibilities of the husband define "marriage" in the eyes of our Creator.

maybe you qualify as husband to these women, maybe you do not. i do not know.
 
[5] = JESUS ON THE PERMANENCE OF MARRIAGE COVENANTS =
It is the entering into marital covenant that makes a man and a woman become husband and wife according to Scripture:
***Ezek 16:8"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.

By means of the covenant/betrothal Joseph had become Mary's husband:
***Matt 1:18Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

Wife by covenant:
***Malachi 2:13 And this you do with double guilt; you cover the altar of the Lord with tears [shed by your unoffending wives, divorced by you], and with [your own] weeping and crying out because the Lord does not regard your offering any more or accept it with favor at your hand. 14 Yet you ask, "Why does He reject it?" Because the Lord was witness [to the covenant made at your marriage] between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously<898> and to whom you were faithless<898>, [breaking your covenants]. Yet she is your companion and the wife of your covenant [made at your wedding]. 15 And did not God make [you and your wife] one [flesh]? Did not the One [true God] make you and preserve your spirit alive? And why [did God make you two] one? Because He sought a godly offspring [from your union]. Therefore take heed to yourselves, and no one should deal treacherously<898> and be faithless<898> to the wife of his youth, [breaking your covenants]. 16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: "I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment/covering with violent cruelty, injustice and unrighteousness<2555>. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly<898>, [breaking your covenants with your marriage mate]. [From the AB]
{Strong's 898} — bagad, baw-gad'; to cover (with a
garment); figuratively, to act covertly; by implication, to pillage: —
deal deceitfully (treacherously, unfaithfully), offend, transgress(-
or), (depart), treacherous (dealer, -ly, man), unfaithful(-ly, man)
{Strong's 2555} — chamac, khaw-mawce'; violence; by
implication, wrong: — cruel(-ty), damage, false, injustice, X oppressor, unrighteous, violence (against, done), violent (dealing), wrong.<Br>
<br>
T: Yes I know that there are differences in the translations of verse 16. The following have Jesus-Jehovah hating BOTH divorce--forsaking-evicting AND him who divorces, forsakes and/or evicts his mate:
[1.] "For I hate divorce," says Adonai the God of Isra'el, "and him who covers his clothing with violence," says Adonnai-Tzva'ot. . . . [Complete Jewish Bible; Stern]
[2] " 16"For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. . . NASB & ASV
[3] "16 For hate sending away, said Jehovah, God of Israel, And He [who] hath covered violence with his clothing, said Jehovah of Hosts, . . . YLT
[4] "16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment [his wife] with violence. . . ." AMP

T: Then you have those who translate it without the statement that God hates him who divorces, forsakes and/or evicts his mate:
[1] 16 “ For the LORD God of Israel says 
 That He hates divorce, 
 For it covers one’s garment with violence,” 
 Says the LORD of hosts. . . . NKJV
[2]16 "If he hates and divorces [his wife]," says the LORD God of Israel, "he covers his garment with injustice," says the LORD of Hosts, . . . HCSB
[3] 16 "For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. . . . ESV

T: You should be able to understand that if Jesus hates the divorce-forsaking-evicting and covenant breaking of married people, and He considers it to be violent cruelty, injustice and unrighteousness<Hebrew 2555>; then those who do such things are guilty of evil, sin, trespass and transgression which results in God's judgement, wrath and punishment. One should do everything possible to avoid such behavior and such consequences. Christians who do such will be chastened with weakness, sickness or even the death of their bodies to get them to stop doing such sin (1 Cor 11:30-32; Heb 12).
***"16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: . . . 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, . . ." Prov 6 NASB

<Br>
***Mark 10:2 And some Pharisees came up, and, in order to test Him and try to find a weakness in Him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to dismiss and repudiate and divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They replied, "Moses allowed a man to write a bill of divorce and to put her away." 5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this precept in your Law. 6 But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female. 7 For this reason a man shall leave [behind] his father and his mother and be joined to his wife and cleave closely to her permanently,
8 And the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has united (joined together), no man should separate or divide." 10 And indoors the disciples questioned Him again about this subject. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever dismisses (repudiates and divorces) his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; 12 And if a woman dismisses (repudiates and divorces) her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."<Br>
<Br>
***Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brethren--for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law--that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive? 2 For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband. 3 Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.<Br>
<Br>
 
fair enough, i see what you are saying.
a relationship that has a covenant and has been consumated is a marriage.
i am still exploring the rights and responsibilities of the husband and keep coming back to the concept that the more responsibilities a husband assumes, the more his authority.
of course, if a woman signs a covenant taking full responsibility for herself and her children and giving him full authority then that is that, but i would not expect it to work out. he has in fact made her autonomous and should not be surprised if she acts that way.
 
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