• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Could the churches be wrong in other areas?

Memphis Dwight

Memphis Dwight

Member
Most of us here have studied our way out of the error of monogamania -- the idolatrous teaching that a man is limited to having only wife at a time.

What other areas could the churches have been wrong on?

I believe that the Catholic church in particular allowed alot of myths and half-truths to creep in over time.
 
Absolutely, MD. It's not just licensing of marriages and churches, of course.

The 'paganization' of His people -- whether it is called 'idolatry' or spiritual 'adultery' -- is arguably the worst evil imaginable among those who claim to be called by His Name. Deuteronomy 7 and 12 tell the story in detail, but Deuteronomy chapter 13 is perhaps the most blunt of all when it talks about those who seek to "entice thee" to "serve other gods".

When He says - repeatedly - that we are to have 'no fellowship' with the works of darkness and pagan worship, the warning was given in the strongest possible terms.


Blessings,

Mark
 
This is one thing that really gets to me Memphis. I think we can both see and say easily that there are a large number of pernicious ideas floating around in North American churches. Fideism for the poufy post-modern philo heads, Ceasation among what would otherwise be among the most focused bible studiers, universalism which has become even more prevalent lately, agnosticism which creaps into churhc itself via fideism, Catholic mythology you've mentioned already, the list goes on and on...

But what really gets me is that all these sudry errors which can be seen easily only tag along with certain types of Christians, no individual error like that is held by even half of the Christians in North America. Whereas monogomania is held by the overwhelming majority, and I am at a loss to find another single error held by such a majority (I agree with you, Mark, about creeping paganism, but I maintain that comes from different paths for different people, more like a cumulation of errors). I have been looking for another such common error, and I would be glad if anyone could find one.

As it sits, we are marked men. Like any true Christian necessarily affirms by his faith that the majority of people are on the broad way to hell, we necessarily affirm that the majority of Christians have made a critical error in understanding God. We are on an even thinner path among people on an already narrow road. Its a loaded thought.

If there is another similar error it is that there is no objective goal in our growth and walk with Christ. It may be that the idea we cannot become mature Christians is as prevalent as monogomania, if it turns out to be then I will no longer be at a loss to find a second error. Addressing that error is one of Doc Rays main things, so perhaps he can comment on it.


One way or another, it seems monogamy is among the most serious and common errors, I think it's worth while to consider what our opponent has in mind by purveying this error.
 
Very interesting post, Tlaloc.

I'll quickly address your last point first ---

One way or another, it seems monogamy is among the most serious and common errors, I think it's worth while to consider what our opponent has in mind by purveying this error.
Click to expand...

The obvious answer is that marriage is at the very root of what He has ordained as the relationship which models His love for EACH AND EVERY ONE of US...

...just as a husband is to love EACH AND EVERY ONE of his wives as the individuals they are.

But there is more, if those reading will bear with me.

So this merits a considered response as well:

...no individual error like that is held by even half of the Christians in North America. Whereas monogomania is held by the overwhelming majority, and I am at a loss to find another single error held by such a majority [perhaps creeping paganism...] I have been looking for another such common error, and I would be glad if anyone could find one.
Click to expand...

At least four or more come immediately to mind:

- The VAST majority of "Christians" support licensing, and at least tacitly acknowledge that ONLY marriage approved by a truly superior authority is acceptable; certainly not anything as trivial as a mere Covenant before God. [:cynicism on]After all, only through Government can a man's word be trusted, and Someone must protect women, since we can't trust God in that way, can we? :twisted: [:cynicism off]

(Trust me on this one, Jair...
that "majority" will persecute those who merely SPEAK against that heresy; it's not enough just to try to destroy that man's family.)

- Almost ALL believe that the only TRUE money that matters has nothing to do with what God calls honest weights and measures, made from the precious metals He put in His creation for us. I'd be willing to bet that debt, and unLawful -- even unConstitutional -- fiat "money" based on it, is accepted as "real" by over 98% of those "Christians" who then also deny that they are in fact slaves to the lender. Such people love fake money even more than fake marriage.

- "Romans 13" (as amended by Caesar's Church) means that we must obey "the government". Funny how that vocal majority of "Christians" who believe that the "law" was "done away with", still worship this singular exception! (And conveniently ignore those Apostles who not only went to jail for doing exactly that, but wrote the text they now distort.)

- "Many paths lead to god." From a former president who "worshipped" at mosques and shinto temples and proclaimed exactly that, to leaders who deny not just what the Bible says about marriage, but even that there is ANY God superior to "Democracy" -- this one is a given. And watch what's coming next! Why else would it no longer be acceptable to teach in that false god's 'schools' that some truths are self-evident, and that we are "endowed by our Creator" with ANYTHING? Any government which seeks absolute power can acknowledge no authority greater than Itself -- particularly if "every path" leads to IT.

- I could add "Easter" - but you've already mentioned "creeping paganism". I'd just argue that renaming the most important event in human history after a pagan goddess, changing times and feasts to cover it up, and replacing everything He said to do "forever" with "traditions of men" that He repeatedly calls abomination is more than "creeping". But I submit that the VAST majority of self-proclaimed Christians would villify me for even suggesting so! (I've already recommended J.W. Stiver's book about how monogamania derives directly from Ishtar/Eros/goddess worship before. Idolatry IS adultery, writ large.)

But we agree on the essential, Jair - and this is my real answer to your question. Satan has accomplished ALL of this by sowing doubt about ALL of the Word - starting with the first lie in history, which began with the words "Has God said...?"

The lie begins with truth, and then a mixture - just a little bit of doubt, a little bit of lie. (Which is the reason, I contend, that we were so often warned about even "adding to" His Word!)

I end with admittedly a VERY tacky story (actually from a joke), but one which makes the point so graphically that it will not be forgotten. Those of you who might be offended, please quit reading here.









Question:
"What do you get when you mix nine gallons of chocolate ice cream with one gallon of dark, creamy human excrement?"

Answer:
"Ten gallons of crap."

Moral:
Mixing 90% of His Truth with a Lie
yields 100% Abomination. The Big Lie.


Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
This is developing into quite a stimulating discussion. Thaloc, always a pleasure to see others with a good vocabulary range.

One of the areas that is quite frustrating is the mule-like stubborn ways of the herd and their refusal to strengthen their thinking abilities.

An oversimplified example of how a discussion with one of them usually goes is something like this:

Me: The primary use of the coffee mug is to hold liquids such as coffee or hot cocoa for drinking purposes.

Other person: No! That is not the only use of the coffee mug. Some people put coffee mugs on their desk to hold pencils and pens. And some use coffee mugs even as a paper weight.

See what just happened? I said primary use but the other person changed it by substituting the words only use. So now he is arguing against a view that I never put forward.

Now take the above example and multiply it exponentially and that is how the herd operates.
And if I were to show the other person how he changed the words, then somehow his reply would lead off track again in some other confusing way.

Most folks have become lazy and can't stay on track.
If I say it is the ideal that women of child bearing age stay home and raise children, I would hear: Show me where it says it is a sin for a woman to work. See the switching of the premises?

I once worked up a most brilliant argument, using the bible as my guide, why it is sinful for God's people to go along with the court system's manner of stealing a man's children and giving them to the divorced wife. I put it out there on several boards and it just got crapped on. I mean even by men calling themselves conservatives. And after I left, they just went back to discussing their Fox News and all.

Some of these Fox News Christians seem to think that Barack Obama is the first socialist president ever. It was these people that were trashing the John Birchers forty five and fifty years ago when the Birchers were trying to warn the populace of the impending communist takeover.
 
Mark,

I think we agree on the essential and then some. You have my total agreement as to the obvious answer, and I think this one error has a cascade effect and causes problems in other areas.

Marriage licensing certainly is a problem when put above the actual marriage, perhaps I'm fortunate or perhaps its my different area but many churches around here (even ones I don't like) eagerly hammer that marriage is of God and any license is secondary. My church has said that for a long time, others have gotten on the ball about it once gay marriage was shoved down the countries throats a few years ago. Perhaps its just that here we're already dealing with something that forces people to wake up.

I go to both sides on the money thing. I agree that you're premise holds true with credit cards and all the forms of debt that eagerly pave the way to bankruptcy, but debt against legitimate assets such as property or investment grade goods is a legitimate business deal and a way to liquidate assets without losing them. On the other side I have a pretty decent communistic bent (I hate Marx, I'm more along the lines of Christians having all things in common, like Leadner I guess) that negates currency as it exists today totally. In short I wish we could do without money, but as it sits I believe there are legitimate ways to use the system as we have it.

Romans 13 misuse is a big problem. Thankfully its not that widespread, at least where I am.

Pantheism is going to bite us hard, it already is. I'm surprised I didn't put that on my short list, good point bringing it up.

Its been said by many of the good leaders of Christianity at different times that we wouldn't have these divisions among us if we just believed what the Bible said. Those little things break us all down, like you said, 100% crap.

Bless you,
Jair


Memphis,
Yes, it is.

Being too lazy to stay on track is a big problem, you cant learn if you don't care. Just this week I was dealing with a ceaseationalist, and I pre-empted his arguments three times. How someone could post something that's already been cleanly shot down without any other defense is beyond me. The worst part is the three arguments he tried to make where 'you don't understand my positon' 'the text means something different to me' and 'why should I listen to a lay person anyway.' No kidding...


I think it is wrong to go along with the court systems child trafficking, when the Texas FLDS thing came down last year my wife and I followed it actively, did what we could, and gave lots of prayers. FLDS are no allies of ours, but its not for the state to do that to anyone. Even that incident pales in comparison to the many many lives they destroy in the system. If you have a biblical argument against it please post it here, I could use more arguments against it.

As for switching premise, the proper question would be 'do you believe it is a sin for a woman to work?' without assumptions, then you can get somewhere. The premise swap is a pretty brutal tactic of ignorance, I'll bet you get mad when people pull that on you. Its too bad but people have a problem with basic reason. True wisdom comes from God, and has to be asked for diligently, the more people set their ways above Gods the harder it is going to be to reason with them. Thats my position anyway.
 
I go to both sides on the money thing. I agree that you're premise holds true with credit cards and all the forms of debt that eagerly pave the way to bankruptcy, but debt against legitimate assets such as property or investment grade goods is a legitimate business deal and a way to liquidate assets without losing them.
Click to expand...

We disagree on the 'communism' thing, Jair; I am libertarian to the core (after all, if God gives us a choice as to Whom we choose to serve, even the "devil's own government" should do no less.)

But I'm not arguing against debt per se...unlike things which are called "abomination", or otherwise prohibited - debt is not. However, we are warned that the "debtor is slave" to the lender - and we see that being played out in spades today.

And fraudulent trade -- dishonest weights and measures -- IS condemned, repeatedly! 'Debt as MONEY' is one of the worst kind of frauds, since it not only fails to give "value for value", and abuses widows, orphans, and the poor, but entraps into slavery as well. (Ironically, what we now see in the world could simply not even EXIST if there was a Jubilee every 50 years to reset the debt bomb before it could go nuclear -- like we are about to witness!)

Perhaps a thread on "slavery" would be a good one for discussion, in part because there is so MUCH of it now in the world (given the widespread debt slavery), and also because it is important to recognize that a SLAVE who is given wives by his master is NOT allowed to take them with him if and when he ever "goes out free"!

I tend to suspect that "love of money" being the root of "all evil" is particularly poignant when a people love 'money' so much that they are willing to accept even a lie in its place. No wonder they are so readily enslaved.

And that, of course, is where I contend the advice to "come out of her, My people" is so important.

Blessings,
Mark
 
Note that communism is an economic system while libertarianism is a philosophy of government. The two are not mutually exclusive. Marxism is a philosophy of government incompatible with libertarianism, but like I said, I hate Marx.

The idea behind christian community is that people freely and willingly give when a brother has a need, which is perfectly compatible with libertarian government philosophies so long as the members of the community are all in fact Christians. Communism today is associated with authoritarian stupidity because thats the only way its been widely applied. Just like Polygamy is associated with Muslims and Fundamentalist Mormons, just because its done wrong in the public eye doesn't mean it can't be done right.


Jair
 
I once had a long discussion on the topic with an Orthodox rabbi while a guest on his radio show. After I remarked that, given Amerikan tax and SS law, most men of our ages had already spent more of our working lives in forced servitude than Jacob did in earning his first two wives, he laughed and told me something I have never forgotten, and we discussed many times subsequently over the years.

And - true to the thread title here - it also counts as something that the vast majority of state-approved 'churches' get wrong.

The Hebraic purpose of slavery, as outlined in the Torah, and as taught by the sages, is to teach a man how to be free. If a slave later says (as per the text), "I love my master...and do not WANT to go out free" - it was a sign of FAILURE. That master failed to teach his servant what it means to live as a free man, and take care of his own house.

I always thought that was a fascinating point - particularly in light of the fact that the government master -- the prince of this world -- has EXACTLY the OPPOSITE goal, in teaching those who learn to rely on the Almighty State's Benevolence (as opposed to God) to live forever as slaves, and not even realize their status.

Of course, the ultimate lesson of bond service, as Paul points out, is that there is only one Master, and King, Who is truly worthy of our service. Him alone are we to serve.

Blessings,
Mark
 
Yes Mark, that defiantly counts as something almost all churches get wrong. Us who are here discussing and polygamy in the tone we are make us a rare people indeed.

When I talk about this I think of my Great Grandfather. He was a farmer and always had a hired had. They where usually started in their late teens when they where in a tough spot (the last one was kicked out by his parents at 15) and worked for him for five to ten years. After that they would go on their way and leave with a wide variety of skills they learned from working with him on the farm. They would go with practical skills like mechanics and construction and agricultural knowledge and with deeper understanding of patience and faith. To me that always seemed to reflect what we're talking about here about Hebrew slavery. They work hard, they learn a lot, and they leave with new skills and freindship.

Anyway, I think we have the same understanding here, always good talking to you,

Jair
 
Mark,
I am libertarian to the core as well. All evil is to be determined by the standards and principles laid forth in the Old Testament. Deviate from them and we step into our own slavery.
 
'Those who will not serve God will serve Tyrants," as we both probably recall, MD. Too bad that such sentiments are almost as taboo in Caesar's Skools as the Bible itself...


Blessings,
Mark
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top