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Curious

S

Sara

New Member
Hi All,

I am not a polygamist, nor am I considering it for myself. But after watching documentaries and the entire first and second season of HBO's Big Love, it's definitely sparked my curiousity - to say the least.

So from a guy's and woman's perspective, why is this right for you? Is it a social and religious obligation or more of something you've chosen for yourself because it works for you? I've read a lot of responses from people on this site, and for the most part people seem to live in the midwest and southwest. Why do you think this is more popular out there? I work in NYC and often have 12-14 days. I can't imagine having time for 1 child, let alone 3-8 of my own.

Ladies, how do you deal with knowing that your husband could easily sleep with another woman only hours after being with you? Strangely enough I have some male co-workers around my age (23) who actually seem to understand this lifestyle and why it might work (we've had a lot of discussions about Big Love.) I'm fairly socially liberal, but this lifestyle puzzles me because it appears that many of you are socially conservative.

Responses would be great.

Thanks,
Sara
 
Hello Sara,

If I may, I would like to address you're last comment first. While it may appear that many here are socially conservative, it is not strictly speaking a correct analysis. In fact I would say that the root philosophy of many here is very extreme libertarianism. This is partially because of the first part of a teaching of St.Paul "For me all things are lawful". Polygyny is not the status quo, so you cannot conserve it, so someone meeting to support polygyny cannot be strictly conservative. There are quite a few other ways in which the majority of this group deviates from the status quo. Most believe that it is the right and responsibility of a parent to oversee the education of his children, most reject the concept of the state's authority over marriage and some reject even getting a certificate at all, all necessarily question and criticize the status quo. But this freedom many of us believe in has another part to it. As the Greek philosophers said 'The average man obeys the law for fear of it, the wise obeys it because he understands it." and as St.Paul's quote finishes "But not all things are expedient (practical, good)"

Because of the pursuit of understanding most here live lives which are very disciplined in comparison to the norm. Freedom is good, but if you do not discipline you'reself someone or something (such as circumstances) will. To that end there are many things which we could never recommend, never do ourselves, and are obliged to prevent if possible. Total freedom giving way to understanding what's good explains views you are commenting on.

I am from Saskachewan, which is sort of west, but not at all south. I can't very well comment on a demographic I'm neither part of nor have studied, so I'll take a pass at that.

I would not say Big Love is a good example of polygamy, but it is a good show to raise awareness and questions. Neither Christians nor Messianic Jews (nor technically Muslims) have any religious or social obligation to polygyny. We do have a fundamental freedom to do something we can prove is good and beneficial. It's that freedom that people in the US call on to support even this illegal action, up here in Canada the law is for all intensive purposes a dead law (no prosecutions in many decades and when a case came to a judge he refused to prosecute it on the grounds the law would be overturned). So in my case it can't be any more or less than what works for us, it is a social stand for sure, but ultimately its whats good for my family. Mormons, in their core doctrine (not their modern doctrine, its a complicated issue) do have an obligation to polygyny. They are to my knowledge the only group that gives it as a religious duty for each member. Many cultures have polygyny a social duty for some people under some circumstances.

What women think about their husband having another wife in bed not long after her would be as diverse as women themselves, I hope someone else posts and tells you their view too.

One thing to realize is that it isn't a mater of 'might work'. Its historically the norm to have some polygamists in society. In the big picture its not weird to have a big family in a community. It is very weird to be in a situation that you have to work so much you cant imagine time for the most basic human drive. In the past slaves had time to think of their families, in the present common people don't. This is one illustration of why people here say that society is very broken right now. We produce more, with less effort, and have longer work hours and a harder time making ends meat. If someone doesn't want a family that's their precognitive, but when you have so many obligations you couldn't make time you need to step back and ask you'reself how you got into that situation and why you're staying in it.

On one last note, I think its important to point out that polygamy normally isn't mysogynist. Census data clearly shows more women then men, apply supply\demand, if its got to be 1:1 that devalues women. The historical root of mandatory monogamy in Europe (and consequently here in the Americas) lies first in Roman law, and was maintained by second century theology such as that of Tretullian, who said outright "its evil to touch a woman." It started in culture as a holiness law that viewed women as distracting. Fast forward to the 17th century where writings such as Theodatia comment on how badly women are treated in the monogamous societies of Europe compared to polygamous nations (even Islamic ones) around them. The main argument against allowing polygamy then was that women where a financial drain and not worth marrying if you could just sleep with them (no kidding). There is an example as late as 1890 where women who where for polygamy where the right to vote because of it, but I cant remember the name of the act now, it was in the USA.

Its only in this century that monogamy has somehow irrationally been tied to womens rights. Obviously the major surviving example of polygamy (Islam) is a bad one because Islam is in a cultural crisis this century. In the end though, you can't support womens rights by restricting who she can choose to marry. It's not something many women would want, but it is something many others do.

I hope that helps, and I hope you get some other prespectives too.

Jair
 
Jair did a pretty good job of addressing a lot of the points I might have made, Sara, so my response will be more limited.

I enjoy Big Love, not only because it shows a polygynous family and gives some insight into at least SOME of the problems such people face (as well as, of course, a LOT of Hollywood. Most of us don't deal with organized cult crime :o ) and seems to have some good insight into LDS history and fundamentalism.

I have a strictly Biblical bent, however -- no Mormon background at all -- and a Messianic perspective; there is no "religious obligation" whatsoever (in most cases** ! ;) ) for a man to have more than one wife - simply a recognition that there is no prohibition either. I have never lived in NYC, although I had occasion to take a number of business trips there at one time, and have a number of on-line acquaintances there. My experience is that you will find a far higher percentage of people who accept the Bible as the very real "Word of God" in some other parts of the country. (And I say this as one who lives very near to the Pagan Capital of Colorado, the People's Republic of Boulder -- :D ...and who also took about forty years myself to come to the conclusion that I had been wrong about Him and His Book for all my adult life. ;) )

There is NO marriage in my experience that is without problems, or that does not require a lot of sincere effort to help succeed. In that regard polygyny is simply the general case of marriage, where addition of another human being to the equation increases the number of relationships which must be considered. Children do this as well, of course, but from a different starting point!

I have concluded that it is not possible to have a truly fulfilling life, much less marriage, without an understanding of Who made us, and how He made us to be. That is the Big Step. Once you realize that ALL of what He wrote is true, the rest simply follows, and is part of His blessing.

May He give you His blessings as well,

Mark



----------------------------
** See other threads, if you haven't already. There are a couple of 'special case' exceptions!
 
Hello Sara and Welcome to the board from Chaplains Rose and myself.

I have to echo what has been written already but will add the following.

I came to realize that living in a polygynious way was and is not wrong. I grow up in the "church" as a Southern Baptist and remember reading the stories in the Old Testament and noted that there were men who had more than one wife. I just excepted that and did not really think about it until early last year. It was a combination of several things that made me start to reflect on what the Word of God has to say about this type of relationship or family. One of those things was a conversation with a fellow Brother in Christ on my platform ( I work in the Gulf of Mexico ) about marriage / relationship issues and another was when Chaplains Rose insisted on inviting her best friend ( of 26 yrs, and this is a story in of it's self )to be a part of our date nights when I was home from work. So to make a long story short, I started digging into what Gods word said, reading various web sights, reading other material on this and all that I had studied and read just confirmed what I had found in Gods word. That polygyny is another style of marriage that God approved of and commanded in some places. Chaplains Rose and I grew to understand this and both agreed to offer this type of marriage or relationship to her best friend.

I live down here in the Bayou country of South Louisiana, consider myself very conservative and believe that the Bible is Gods word. I read and study it regularly and have for years, but God is always showing me something new all the time, regardless of how many time I read the same things over and over. God speaks to us in His time and in His way through His word, thus the new and wonderful things I learn all the time.

Having said all of that, LOVE for my wife's best friend in conjunction with my belief in what Gods word says about polygyny and the desire to provide my wife's best friend with a "husband" who will Love her, and do his best to take care of her, who will Love her kids and grandson ( unlike her former husband )and OUR ( Chaplains Rose and myself ) desire to share our lives and family with her in a way that goes beyond meir friendship, is why we are seeking to live polygynious or in a Covenant Relationship / Biblical Family way.

I see that you say you work 12 to 14 hr days. You, and please do not be offended by this statement, have made your "job" your number 1 "thing" in your life. I am gone from my family on average of 6 mts out of the year, but am blessed with 4 wonderful kids ( ages 28 thru 19 ) and have an almost 2 yr old granddaughter. FAMILY is a BIG part of most people who live down here in the ole South and in the South West ( once you get out of the big cities, though you will find it there as well ). That is one reason I believe that polygyny may be more, shall we say, "alive" in these parts. Having "things" is good but when you let those "things" become the driving force behind why you work so hard, then they take away from the REAL joy of why one should work, and that is to provide for and care for their family. Again, please do not be offended, just being honest here.

Hope this answered your questions. May God bless your search and may HE be a part of your life.
 
Sara said:
I am not a polygamist, nor am I considering it for myself. But after watching documentaries and the entire first and second season of HBO's Big Love, it's definitely sparked my curiousity - to say the least.

So from a guy's and woman's perspective, why is this right for you? Is it a social and religious obligation or more of something you've chosen for yourself because it works for you? I've read a lot of responses from people on this site, and for the most part people seem to live in the midwest and southwest. Why do you think this is more popular out there? I work in NYC and often have 12-14 days. I can't imagine having time for 1 child, let alone 3-8 of my own.
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Hello Sara,

Over the years I have come to realize that family, love and relationships are what makes life worthwhile. By the time you reach 40 these things will mean much more to you than they do now. By way of answering your questions, maybe I can turn it around a bit and get to know you a bit better. What made you interested in polygamy and this board? Are you married? Is there something about our relationships that makes you wonder if you might be missing something? Too many people are merely "cocooning" into their own little worlds - polygamy is a means to rediscovering family and the importance of relationships.

Do you have sisters? Best friends? What is it about "Big Love" that fascinates you? I know that most people I know who are not polygamous wouldn't be caught admitting to watching the show. Perhaps you may find that deep inside you are longing for a life beyond the cement forest.
 
Hi Dapastor,

The first time I heard about polygamy was in 8th grade when we learned about the westward expansion. That was about it until Big Love came along. I thought it was a cute show, but definitely questioned the dynamics of a marriage with more than one wife..how does each feel about sharing her husband? How bad are the sexual tensions? Does it hurt each one of them to think about their husbands sharing their most intimate moments with another woman? And then I realized - clearly the dynamic of a polygynous marriage is not very much like the dynamic of a monogamous one. A woman is pretty much forced to view her husband and marriage in a different way and also give it a different purpose.

I'm not married (I'm only 25,) but I've been dating the same guy for over 5 years, and I feel like if it we get married, it will because we want to be happy together in a way that we can't be happy with anyone else. We live together, and I can pretty much see how the presence of someone else could help in certain ways. I work about 11 hrs/day not including an hour to commute to the City, so it would be nice if someone could take out the trash, do some laundry, and make dinner because I've been getting home at an average of 8 pm due to this market insanity. But then I could hire a housekeeper to do those things. Unfortunately, until I leave the financial industry, I'll pretty much have to not be able to be home to make dinner, etc.

In any case, I definitely don't feel like I'm missing something in my relationship. I think what intrigues me the most about this whole practice is sharing a man with at least one other person for the rest of your life. I really think it puts women into a role that involves having less power in a relationship than the male because he is the one who is desired by more than one person. I also think it paints sort of a harem around the husband - being surrounded by women who when one isn't available, another is, etc. It's like the Firm I work for, there's only one ED, and everyone sucks up to him because he makes the decisions. I think a man and woman should share equal power/responsibility in a relationship, and I don't think women should be painted into roles they may not want (i.e. housewife, mother, etc.) I think most practicers of polygamy definitely paint women into those roles. As a woman who always got better grades and makes more money and works more hours than my boyfriend, I really can't see any practical application/justification of placing the responsibility of the household decision-making/leadership responsibilities solely on the male which is the philosophy of "patriarchy" in polygamy.

We could definitely discuss more offline if you're interested, I don't want this post to go on forever.

Sara
 
I really can't see any practical application/justification of placing the responsibility of the household decision-making/leadership responsibilities solely on the male which is the philosophy of "patriarchy" in polygamy.
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In other comments you've made, Sara, I recall a reference to marriage and something like 'only the two' of you.

I will suggest that there's an aspect of marriage which doesn't yet resonate with you, but ultimately makes all the difference. What really makes for the philosophy of patriarchy in marriage is that God is the most important party to the Covenant. Without that understanding, it may not be "only about sex", but it's incomplete.
 
Its reply to something addressed to someone else, but Mark did it first, so meh.

One of the perks of poly is that its easier to have a working woman and a stay at hope person depending on their preferences or circumstances. I'm the guy, but I have periodic paralysis so I can't effectively work outside the home so I'm the stay at home parent for us. I would say most practicers in Canada and the U.S. don't paint women in those roles, but the ones in the media do. There is much more to life than sex, in all other matters the women outnumber the man. A lot of the main concerns about puting women down don't exist in practical application.
 
I stole this off of sisterwives about the true orgins of modern monogamy...

To me, it comes as no surprise that ... as in the former entry here by "mom," just the thought alone of adding a SW is sufficient to cause an increase in libido for her husband and, thus, also for her, too.

Men are basically polygynous creatures; we always have been. For this reason, historically almost every culture has permitted some form of either polygyny or polyamory for men in such societies. In fact, even today over 85% of all present world societies are ... polygynous! For those more evolutionarily inclined, it is a fact that over 80% of all mammals are polygynous and over 95% of all primates are polygynous. Thus, indeed, it is in our very genes.

So... why then is the vast majority of marriages in current Western societies monogamous? The answer to that is simple: a clash of cultures between Ancient Rome and Christian Jews.

By law, the Roman Empire only permitted monogamous marriage. However, it was not only acceptable but expected that a man be permitted as many sexual partners as he could acquire and/or afford. Not only was prostitution completely legal and acceptable in Roman culture, being itself a fully legal and taxable means of income, but men were also just as able to purchase and enjoy as many sex slaves ... of either sex and regardless whether adults or children... as they could afford and properly maintain. When one speaks of the decadence of Rome... we truly have no conception of the depths to the sensual depravity considered wholly natural in Roman society and available especially to men.

In contrast (yet still not so great a contrast) under Judaic law, while a man could not have sexual slaves and while male homosexuality was expressly forbidden, yet a man could have as many wives as he could afford to properly maintain. And were he to be more affluent, he could also have concubines, too, who were "lesser" wives and who had far fewer rights than the primary wives. While for the most part a man's sexual partners were first married to him, yet the divorce laws were such that the marriages could be fairly easily terminated and the women replaced as desired by the man, primarily.

In both cultures it was most certainly a man's world, sexually. I'm not championing either culture's views on women or the inherently misogynist attitudes and practices with each. I'm simply stating the basic sexual parameters of each as a foundational understanding of the environment as existed when our current monogamy laws were first established at the time of the advent of organized (Catholic) Christianity by about the time of the Councils of Nicea and the subsequent foundational eucemenical councils thereafter (ca. 4th-6th Century CE).

My point here being that prior to such councils, Jewish and Roman men were permitted by the laws of both cultures to have multiple sexual partners within the context of each society's legal and moral system. Now, whether such were as wives, concubines, sex slaves, etc., depended on of which culture you were a constituent.

However, during such "Christian" councils, it was decided to keep the Roman law of legal marital monogamy as well as keeping all the Jewish prohibitions against adultery and, by extension fornication, while abolishing as "sinful" and "evil" the important counter-balancing Jewish and Roman laws that validated a man's true polygynous nature and provided legal and acceptable allowances thereof in their marital relationships. Thus... in forcing together laws from two entirely separate and extremely different cultures, mongamy was made law and polygyny was outlawed... both forms contrary to the originating cultures, themselves, and also contrary to the religious teachings of either culture... including those of the Historical Jesus, whose teachings the Roman Christian orthodoxy purported to be following!

And ever since, men have fought against this mandated monogamous marital lifestyle so contrary to their nature ... as well as, imho, equally contrary to the TRUE nature of women (I am not about to get into my thoughts on that at this time, however).
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- Rephaiah
 
And actually, 6th, the whole truth is a bit more unsettling even than that.

Roman (and earlier Greek) pagan culture included a large element of temple goddess worship, and the associated temple whores and sex acts were a large part of that decadence. Idolatry and adultery are related by more than phonetics and symbolism.

Likewise, there is more to the eventual Catholic banning of polygyny (and, in a very related case, simply marriage among priests) than just joining of cultures. There is a large, and consistent, element of Gnostic heresy and destructive self-denial ("mortification of the flesh" and related doctrines) in the "Church", which included the very pervasive teaching that marital sex is at best a 'necessary' evil, or worse. But it took almost a thousand years for polygyny and priestly celibacy to become the kind of 'tradition' which completely overrode God's Word.

Finally, there is another element which should not be ignored. Once the Church and State were joined, power became a far more important element of policy than worship. As Jacob's family demonstrated (and later, even the Mormon patriarchs), polygynous families have a tendency to accumulate great family wealth. Guess who finds that a major threat?




I've posted this link before, but it bears repeating. J.W. Stiver's very thought-provoking work, Eros Made Sacred - the Biblical Case for Polygamy, is here:

http://familyabbeys.org/eros.htm


Blessings,
Mark
 
Appreciate the work everyone's done here in terms of researching the history of polygamy/polygyny.

For me the question is whether or not these ancient rules/doctrines/beliefs actually hold any validity in today's more modern society. Judging from what I've seen from everyone's posts, it seems to me that the answer to that question is in the eyes of the beholder.
 
In that regard it's a lot like our utterly criminal fiat 'money' system, Sara.

It often takes a while, but such abominations are eventually destroyed. Some of us beholders are already finding it hard to watch.

Blessings,

Mark
 
For me the question is whether or not these ancient rules/doctrines/beliefs actually hold any validity in today's more modern society. Judging from what I've seen from everyone's posts, it seems to me that the answer to that question is in the eyes of the beholder.
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Sorry Mark C, what are you talking about here?

Whether or not "ancient rules" or beliefs hold any validity in today's more modern society, Sara.


I contend that polygyny is Biblically permitted and that "honest weights and measures", ultimately boiling down to honest money and honest exchange in contract, are demanded in those same ancient rules. In fact, references to the latter are all OVER the text, and I can make a good case that our current fiat money system is something God "hates".

Both the structure of the family, and of the basis for lawful contract, are at the root of Biblical law. Societies which debase either of them never fail to fall into despotism. We are watching BOTH be undermined with increasing rapidity.

No fiat currency in history has EVER survived long term. The dollar, devalued well over 95% since 1913, and an utterly fiat, baseless unit of exchange since 1971, will NOT be the first.

We are, I contend, seeing what devaluation of marriage does to a society. It's taken quite a while, and the eyes of many beholders won't be able to see it.

Likewise, the dollar has taken over 35 years to enter this final phase. But I submit that, while most people* will still miss the real root cause, the demise will be sudden, catastrophic, and painful to behold.

That's why I meant it will be hard to watch.

---------------------------------
* Even Keynes admitted that not 'one man in a million' would be able to spot the deception.
 
Mark

These problems are not just in this country, it is worldwide. Most people will not have a clue on what to do when this falls. So then it will be easy for them to accept the great peace maker. People like stability in their lives and he will promise it. Just a thought.

Dairyfarmer
 
No argument there, Dairyfarmer. There in fact IS no currency in the world which is NOT fully fiat in nature. (Which is part of the reason why this coming REALLY Great Depression will be 'biblical' in extent. :( )

It took me about 40 years to come to the realization that the Bible was what it is, and seeing the inevitable destruction that we will witness was part of coming to that understanding.

Blessings,

Mark
 
Sara,

I would have to say that the term 'modern' does not apply here as we are talking about sociological constructs rather than technological ones. A more refined ability to control nature does not translate quit pro quo to sociological changes. For example, ancient Greece killed unwanted children by leaving them on hilltops, we can efficiently kill them without having to wait for them to be born. The sociological phenomena of infanticide is the same, though the mechanism is different. In the same way today's identity theft isn't sociologically different than forgery a century ago. Cars and computers do not change how we should relate to other people, nor do they change basic standards of good behaviour.

With that agreed to the question is reduced to 'can something that worked in the past and in other cultures work now?'

The question "Is this what I want in my life?" is a matter of personal taste, the matter of "can it work?" is much more straightforeward.

Ultimately though the question is entirely, as you put it, modern. The question before me was my 'wife wants another wife, what should we do?' The question before any polygynist is 'Should we do this now' and the question for anyone else is 'should I object to their choice, and if so why does it offend me?' Historical citations are evidence for the effectiveness of the pro polygamy choice and a crucial reason for finding in our favour.
 
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