Do any of you believe in both polygamy, and no divorce?

[MiddleEastMissionary]

I've studied polygamy and divorce as 2 separate studies, therefore a conclusion in one hasn't necessarily formed a conclusion on the other, but if none of you believe polygamy can be defended without exceptions for divorce, it follows I can speed up my study by just studying divorce. If you have concluded polygamy is allowed but no divorce is allowed I'm interested how you've reconciled it so let me know.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

I've studied polygamy and divorce as 2 separate studies, therefore a conclusion in one hasn't necessarily formed a conclusion on the other, but if none of you believe polygamy can be defended without exceptions for divorce, it follows I can speed up my study by just studying divorce. If you have concluded polygamy is allowed but no divorce is allowed I'm interested how you've reconciled it so let me know.

I am not sure I understand the logic of your premise. You state that if we do not believe polygamy can be defended without exceptions for divorce, it follows that you could just study divorce.

But that is NOT the language of the poll you posted.

So, I believe in a man's right to divorce a woman for cause. I also believe a man has the right to marry more that one wife.

I also believe that if either of those things were false, the other would still be valid.

Also, your tagline indicates a huge desire to see teachings by quote unquote, church fathers. Why are you looking so hard for those quotes???

 

[Mark C]

Why would you say "no divorce is allowed," when YHVH says, "Here's how it is to be done"? (IN DETAIL, Deuteronomy 24:1-3, with the instruction literally repeated twice.)

Is He right, or are you?

 

[Mark C]

And the Scripturally-correct term is "polygyny", BTW. Polygamy is actually NOT permitted in Scripture, because that term INCLUDES what is known correctly as polyandry.

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

Why would you say "no divorce is allowed," when YHVH says, "Here's how it is to be done"? (IN DETAIL, Deuteronomy 24:1-3, with the instruction literally repeated twice.)

Is He right, or are you?

And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put heraway. 5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

10And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Mark 10:3-12

 

[UtahLife]

Divorce is allowable, not preferable, but allowable.

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

Divorce is allowable, not preferable, but allowable.

Here’s the nuance, Paul says if you’re divorced you must remain “unmarried or be reconciled” 1 Cor. 7

 

[OttoM]

A man can righteously have more than one wife - if done according to his Word.

A man can righteously divorce his own wives - if done according to his Word.

Did not Paul elaborate on a suitable reason for divorce? Do you think he would contradict the Messiah?

1 Cor 7:12; 15
If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

You have to understand that the pharisees came to Yahoshua (Jesus) attempting to trap him. You have to also understand that according to their own traditions - a man can divorce his wife for practically any reason - such as burning or over-salting his dish (Talmud). This goes against the written word of YAH. Yahoshua (Jesus) went straight to the heart of the matter. Keep your promised covenants. Marriage is not meant to be so easily broken. However, that does not mean divorces are sin. Yes, divorces are indeed allowed. Because the perfect word allows for it. The problem is that the pharisees did violence to that written word, and elevated their oral/traditions of men:

Mark 7:6-13
You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,

‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’

8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

9 Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ 12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. 13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”

 

[OttoM]

Here’s the nuance, Paul says if you’re divorced you must remain “unmarried or be reconciled” 1 Cor. 7

1 Cor 7:10-11
The wife should not separate from her husband 11 But if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.

Biblically speaking - a wife does not even have the right to issue her own husband a certificate of divorce. It's a fairly new concept/law that a wife has the legal authority to even divorce her own husband. In the 1800's (and before) the wives had no legal grounds to divorce their own husbands. They could only "leave" their husband. If they do leave their own husbands - then as long as their husband is still alive - if they go and sleep with another man - they've committed adultery. That's why the Creator specifically instructs Paul to write down that they're to remain un-married or reconcile to their husband. The husband of course can find another wife, and the wife that left can still reconcile back to him (as an additional wife).

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

A man can righteously have more than one wife - if done according to his Word.

A man can righteously divorce his own wives - if done according to his Word.

Did not Paul elaborate on a suitable reason for divorce? Do you think he would contradict the Messiah?

1 Cor 7:12; 15
If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

You have to understand that the pharisees came to Yahoshua (Jesus) attempting to trap him. You have to also understand that according to their own traditions - a man can divorce his wife for practically any reason - such as burning or over-salting his dish (Talmud). This goes against the written word of YAH. Yahoshua (Jesus) went straight to the heart of the matter. Keep your promised covenants. Marriage is not meant to be so easily broken. However, that does not mean divorces are sin. Yes, divorces are indeed allowed. Because the perfect word allows for it. The problem is that the pharisees did violence to that written word, and elevated their oral/traditions of men:

Mark 7:6-13
You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,

‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’

8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

9 Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ 12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. 13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”

I agree with much of that, but I would say divorce doesn’t allow you to remarry based 1 Cor. 7 (Paul is speaking of divorced persons, and says they must reconcile or remain unmarried.) is that what you mean by allowing divorce? Divorce but no remarriage aka til death?

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

1 Cor 7:10-11
The wife should not separate from her husband 11 But if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.

Biblically speaking - a wife does not even have the right to issue her own husband a certificate of divorce. It's a fairly new concept/law that a wife has the legal authority to even divorce her own husband. In the 1800's (and before) the wives had no legal grounds to divorce their own husbands. They could only "leave" their husband. If they do leave their own husbands - then as long as their husband is still alive - if they go and sleep with another man - they've committed adultery. That's why the Creator specifically instructs Paul to write down that they're to remain un-married or reconcile to their husband. The husband of course can find another wife, and the wife that left can still reconcile back to him (as an additional wife).

I respect that argument, but I don’t see how Mark 10:11 “you commit adultery against her” and especially Luke 16:18 “18Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.” fit if the man is also guilty of adultery for remarrying, at least after divorce. And maybe now you’ll see why I’m uncertain on if this would also implicate polygamy being condemned in the NT.

 

[OttoM]

I agree with much of that, but I would say divorce doesn’t allow you to remarry based 1 Cor. 7 (Paul is speaking of divorced persons, and says they must reconcile or remain unmarried.) is that what you mean by allowing divorce? Divorce but no remarriage aka til death?

That commandment is strictly for the wife:

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

A husband should definitely not divorce his wife. However, if she has committed a deadly sin - that she was 100% not ignorant of - such as sleeping with another man or involved in spiritual witchcraft - then is it not gracious to simply hand her a certificate of divorce and send her out of your house? Pagan women involved in spiritual adultery and prostitution has gotten many righteous patriarchs in trouble - bringing curses upon their own household. Of course, men should never marry an un-equally yoked women. However, what if it's something she hid really well, or start doing into their marriage? Then a certificate of divorce would be the gracious thing to do. It's either that or potentially see your entire household fall. Look at the story of Gideon, for example. One of his wives was a pagan/un-equally yoked. The offspring from that marriage ended up murdering most of his sons.

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

That commandment is strictly for the wife:

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

A husband should definitely not divorce his wife. However, if she has committed a deadly sin - that she was 100% not ignorant of - such as sleeping with another man or involved in spiritual witchcraft - then is it not gracious to simply hand her a certificate of divorce and send her out of your house? Pagan women involved in spiritual adultery and prostitution has gotten many righteous patriarchs in trouble - bringing curses upon their own household. Of course, men should never marry an un-equally yoked women. However, what if it's something she hid really well, or start doing into their marriage? Then a certificate of divorce would be the gracious thing to do. It's either that or potentially see your entire household fall. Look at the story of Gideon, for example. One of his wives was a pagan/un-equally yoked. The offspring from that marriage ended up murdering most of his sons.

That’s an interesting point. What do you think about Malachi though saying you’ve abandoned the wife of your youth? Or the fact that despite God divorcing his people he nevertheless still considers himself married to her despite the divorce and the adultery? Would other men be free in your view to marry the woman you’ve divorced?

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

That commandment is strictly for the wife:

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

A husband should definitely not divorce his wife. However, if she has committed a deadly sin - that she was 100% not ignorant of - such as sleeping with another man or involved in spiritual witchcraft - then is it not gracious to simply hand her a certificate of divorce and send her out of your house? Pagan women involved in spiritual adultery and prostitution has gotten many righteous patriarchs in trouble - bringing curses upon their own household. Of course, men should never marry an un-equally yoked women. However, what if it's something she hid really well, or start doing into their marriage? Then a certificate of divorce would be the gracious thing to do. It's either that or potentially see your entire household fall. Look at the story of Gideon, for example. One of his wives was a pagan/un-equally yoked. The offspring from that marriage ended up murdering most of his sons.

What can “let not the husband put away his wife.” mean but don’t remarry? He just said the woman can remain unmarried if she can’t reconcile, so being unmarried can’t be ‘put away’ it’s the act of remarrying that stands in the way of later reconciliation.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

That’s an interesting point. What do you think about Malachi though saying you’ve abandoned the wife of your youth? Or the fact that despite God divorcing his people he nevertheless still considers himself married to her despite the divorce and the adultery? Would other men be free in your view to marry the woman you’ve divorced?

why would you say that God considers himself still married to the one sister he divorced?

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

What can “let not the husband put away his wife.” mean but don’t remarry? He just said the woman can remain unmarried if she can’t reconcile, so being unmarried can’t be ‘put away’ it’s the act of remarrying that stands in the way of later reconciliation.

The putting away means kicking her out of his house. That is consistent. That is what it means.... Divorce is different. After a separation, they can be reconciled. After a divorce if she has gone on to be with another man, they cannot be reconciled.

 

[OttoM]

That’s an interesting point. What do you think about Malachi though saying you’ve abandoned the wife of your youth? Or the fact that despite God divorcing his people he nevertheless still considers himself married to her despite the divorce and the adultery? Would other men be free in your view to marry the woman you’ve divorced?

If a wife has been properly divorced by the husband - absolutely - she is free to re-marry. She can find another husband and enter into a covenant with him.

However, that would mean she can’t ever go back and reconcile to her previous husband. Creator feels the same way:

Jeremiah 3:1
If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled? But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers— would you now return to me?” declares the LORD.

Deut 24:4
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The marriage law remains firm until the husband dies. That is why only after Yahoshua (Jesus) died on the cross - and rose back again - did he tell his disciples to go and preach the good news to the gentiles. There can now be reconciliation through the Son. The northern kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) were already scattered among the gentiles, and many of them assimilated.

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

why would you say that God considers himself still married to the one sister he divorced?

How do you interpret this

They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
…
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
Jeremiah 3:1-14

 

[MiddleEastMissionary]

The putting away means kicking her out of his house. That is consistent. That is what it means.... Divorce is different. After a separation, they can be reconciled. After a divorce if she has gone on to be with another man, they cannot be reconciled.

Romans 7:1-3 says
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Divorce/remarriage doesn’t end the marriage or there wouldn’t be anyone to cheat on in this scenario. It’s even more explicit in Jesus’s 8 gospel condemnations of remarriage after divorce as adultery.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Romans 7:1-3 says
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Divorce/remarriage doesn’t end the marriage or there wouldn’t be anyone to cheat on in this scenario. It’s even more explicit in Jesus’s 8 gospel condemnations of remarriage after divorce as adultery.

a Divorced woman, no longer has a husband. So, verse 2 would not apply to the divorced woman. And death does break the marital bond, so she is able to marry herself unto another in that case also.

But a woman who HAS a husband, is committing adultery if she marries herself unto another man. God does not care if a woman is able to legally obtain a state marriage license to another man while she is still married to her husband. Many people think that a woman can divorce a man and free herself but that is not the case. Her husband has the ability to set her free but she cannot set herself free from him.

We know that under the color of mans law, a woman CAN divorce a man and marry herself unto another. But in that case, in the eyes of God, she is committing adultery even though she has married herself unto another man.

These verses do not mean that a woman can never remarry after her husband has divorced her until he also dies.