-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Does marriage involve the spirits?
- Thread starter Jim
- Start date
This passage contrasts the fleshy union of a man and a woman with the spiritual union of a believer and Christ. So the bond between a man and his wife is physical, and reflects the bond between the man and God, which is spiritual. The man has two unions, with God and with the woman. The bond with God is not physical or sexual. The bond with the woman is not spiritual. Both are different, yet reflect each other.1Cor 6:15-17 said:
do we really understand what happens in the spiritual realm?
denying that realm simply because we do not recognize what is going on is simply arrogant.
I echo jag's question;
what is the pastors point?
why insist that the spirit is not involved?
and more to the point;
how does his opinion affect you, jim?
does it matter?
denying that realm simply because we do not recognize what is going on is simply arrogant.
I echo jag's question;
what is the pastors point?
why insist that the spirit is not involved?
and more to the point;
how does his opinion affect you, jim?
does it matter?
Yes, these are the critical questions. I get the feeling that this spirit/physical issue is simply a tangent or distraction from something more important that you were actually discussing.steve said:
Agreed. It's a pointless argument as either way it says nothing about PM specifically.Jim said:
However the fact that the pastor even used this reflects the old Gnostic heresy that the spirit is holy but the body is evil. Because arguing that you shouldn't do something because it is 'fleshy' only makes sense if 'fleshy' = 'evil', or at least 'undesirable'. If marriage is undesirable due to being fleshy, we should all be celibate.
But, if God created our bodies and then said 'It is good' (as He did), then there is nothing wrong with something being fleshy. You don't need to argue that something must be spiritual for it to be good and holy.
Although I agree our knowledge of the spiritual is imperfect, the best I can make of what the scripture says on this matter is that earthly marriage is physical while our relationship with God is spiritual. One flesh vs one spirit. This does not at all demean marriage, rather it raises it up as an amazing and holy reflection of our relationship with Christ.
No need to get into a long discussion on this though, it's a minor side issue that we can readily understand differently. My point is simply that your pastor's argument is pointless. Whether marriage is physical or spiritual makes no difference to the fact that it is entirely wholesome and good for a Christian, whether monogamous or polygamous.
But then again, it wasn't pointless. It successfully deflected the discussion from something profitable into an area where neither conclusion would make any impact on his belief that polygamy is wrong. And it was the key issue you took from the discussion to bring here. A cunning deflection you could argue. We must be very careful to recognise such deflections early and not let a potentially profitable discussion be dragged into one. It's like driving down a major road then being turned into a no-exit alleyway...
Is it worth seeing if you can probe your pastor a bit more? Maybe find out if the pastor's concern is:
IMHO, a great pastor will ask you:
- What has Jesus been telling you about this in your prayer times with him?
- What has your wife been saying to you about PM?
- What have the men you respect that have known you a few years been saying about this?
- Why do you think PM is good for your family?
- How do you see PM fitting in with what God is doing in your local church?
- What problem is this solving?
- And after all those questions, then the pastor can ask *you* how you came to see PM encouraged Biblically.
A pastor's role isn't to tell me what to do. 90% of a pastor's job is helping me learn to obey what Jesus has told me (and is telling us) to do. 10% of it is teaching theology, and then, it's mostly teaching me how to study theology for myself, not necessarily tell me what it should be.
1. Misguided Biblically for example, "The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman so if you do anything but that you're sinning so I'll have to kick you out of our church."
2. Misguided Biblically but has some valid personal input something like, "Blah blah Bible blah blah fear blah blah and I've known you for a long time and not sure you're ready to take on this kind of thing (yet)."
3. Misguided emotionally, "I'm not sure what I think about this Biblically but the rest of the church isn't going to like it and I'm afraid because I don't know how to control everyone. So you shouldn't do it."
IMHO, a great pastor will ask you:
- What has Jesus been telling you about this in your prayer times with him?
- What has your wife been saying to you about PM?
- What have the men you respect that have known you a few years been saying about this?
- Why do you think PM is good for your family?
- How do you see PM fitting in with what God is doing in your local church?
- What problem is this solving?
- And after all those questions, then the pastor can ask *you* how you came to see PM encouraged Biblically.
A pastor's role isn't to tell me what to do. 90% of a pastor's job is helping me learn to obey what Jesus has told me (and is telling us) to do. 10% of it is teaching theology, and then, it's mostly teaching me how to study theology for myself, not necessarily tell me what it should be.
excellent points, Samuel and jag
a couple of additional points;
when paul declares that the younger widows should marry instead of being cared for by the church, he is talking about their physical bodies, their fleshly bodies, if you will. so you can see it is not about them being fleshly in any carnal way. they are flesh and blood and need care, period. of course they are body, soul, and spirit, but it is the body that has the immediate need.
in addition to what jag said, a pastor is a shepherd whose job it is to lead the sheep to refreshment and sustenance, water and grass. but at this point the analogy breaks down. his job is not to keep the classes separate, as in the caste system, his job is to help the sheep to grow into becoming shepherds in their own right.
when the spiritual gifts were enumerated please notice that no one is called to be a sheep. we are all sheep who are expected to grow into our giftings, leading each other toward refreshment and sustenance. the ladies did that this weekend at their retreat, led not by an official pastor but by a sweet shepherd, one of their own number.
ok, rant over
a couple of additional points;
when paul declares that the younger widows should marry instead of being cared for by the church, he is talking about their physical bodies, their fleshly bodies, if you will. so you can see it is not about them being fleshly in any carnal way. they are flesh and blood and need care, period. of course they are body, soul, and spirit, but it is the body that has the immediate need.
in addition to what jag said, a pastor is a shepherd whose job it is to lead the sheep to refreshment and sustenance, water and grass. but at this point the analogy breaks down. his job is not to keep the classes separate, as in the caste system, his job is to help the sheep to grow into becoming shepherds in their own right.
when the spiritual gifts were enumerated please notice that no one is called to be a sheep. we are all sheep who are expected to grow into our giftings, leading each other toward refreshment and sustenance. the ladies did that this weekend at their retreat, led not by an official pastor but by a sweet shepherd, one of their own number.
ok, rant over
Maybe it's just me, but that Pastor sounds cynical to me. (i wonder what his WIFE would say in answer to that question?)
To me, i think there are certain things that are merely rhetorical sometimes - not necessarily this - and many more, including the rhetorical ones, that will only be answered in the after-life, by Jesus and Heavenly Father. That is just my opinion - i don't speak for anyone else.
j/L "Granny" Matrika / Rolling Buffalo Woman
To me, i think there are certain things that are merely rhetorical sometimes - not necessarily this - and many more, including the rhetorical ones, that will only be answered in the after-life, by Jesus and Heavenly Father. That is just my opinion - i don't speak for anyone else.
j/L "Granny" Matrika / Rolling Buffalo Woman
I have heard certain women say that when a man has relations with a woman, not only does he impart things to her (scientifically) but she gives DNA and other type mystical connections to him. Thus her objection is that if another wife is involved in the relationship and this other wife is unclean in some way, (think she means spiritually) it will affect the first wife badly. Any comments on this?
nyastar,
That a man imparts to a woman seems to be a given, even if we do not understand the full extent of what happens.
In my present understanding I do not see that same type of impartation happening in an "upstream" manner. If anyone has any evidence of this I would love to know.
However, if a man is not solid in who he is and what he believes, it is possible for him to be influenced. This did happen to King Solomon.
This is why it is so important for the man to see himself as the leader of the family, especially spiritually. It is his job to lead the fam toward righteousness. As opposed to the old saying that one rotten apple can turn the whole barrel of apples rotten, in this case the mans job is to be the good apple (and hopefully the first wife is also a good apple and being his helpmeet) that "un-rots" the rotting apple and brings her into being a good apple. One must definitely be led of the Lord in this because it will require great virtue on the part of the man (and, to a lesser extent, his first wife).
That a man imparts to a woman seems to be a given, even if we do not understand the full extent of what happens.
In my present understanding I do not see that same type of impartation happening in an "upstream" manner. If anyone has any evidence of this I would love to know.
However, if a man is not solid in who he is and what he believes, it is possible for him to be influenced. This did happen to King Solomon.
This is why it is so important for the man to see himself as the leader of the family, especially spiritually. It is his job to lead the fam toward righteousness. As opposed to the old saying that one rotten apple can turn the whole barrel of apples rotten, in this case the mans job is to be the good apple (and hopefully the first wife is also a good apple and being his helpmeet) that "un-rots" the rotting apple and brings her into being a good apple. One must definitely be led of the Lord in this because it will require great virtue on the part of the man (and, to a lesser extent, his first wife).