Gender roles and traditions

[Smilesgalore]

I am looking into gender roles and traditions. I understand that there are differences based on denomination and theological approaches, but what are the roles and traditions you find most important in your faith? Some examples might include male leadership within the family, circumcision (male and/or female), head coverings, baptism, etc. each of these could be their own discussion and I hardly know much about the meaning behind any of it. Really looking for general principles now.

 

[frederick]

I am looking into gender roles and traditions. I understand that there are differences based on denomination and theological approaches, but what are the roles and traditions you find most important in your faith?

Keeping the divinely established differences between the two; male and female, clear. God created them male and female in His image - end of argument about LBGTQWERTYUIOP.... . Shalom

 

[Smilesgalore]

Keeping the divinely established differences between the two; male and female, clear. God created them male and female in His image - end of argument about LBGTQWERTYUIOP.... . Shalom

I meant specific roles. Does it matter? In some cultures only the man is permitted to work, etc.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I think for a lot of us the actual roles filled are pretty flexible. Someone brought up the Proverbs 31 woman already. She didn’t have many options closed to her. She dabbled in real estate, manufacturing, trade and agriculture.

For many of us here the vitally important, nearly non-negotiable principle is complete male headship over his home. For most of us no man has any authority over anyone else’s woman but he has complete authority over his.

We talk about The Metaphor a lot, how the relationship between a man and a woman was designed to be a living testament to the relationship between God and His People, some folks prefer to say Christ and the Church. The Metaphor, I’m the only drama king who capitalizes it, dominates much of the thought and principles we talk about.

Someone can provide you the verses to back this up if you’re interested.

 

[primrose]

I am looking into gender roles and traditions. I understand that there are differences based on denomination and theological approaches, but what are the roles and traditions you find most important in your faith? Some examples might include male leadership within the family, circumcision (male and/or female), head coverings, baptism, etc. each of these could be their own discussion and I hardly know much about the meaning behind any of it. Really looking for general principles now.

There’s so much here that could be delved into but a few big traditions that stand out to me are celebrating the birth of Jesus, celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, participating in communion to remember the sacrifice Jesus made out of the love for me, and baptism. Baptism to me is celebrated as the outward expression of the inward change. It is a person sharing their story of what God has done in their life, how they came to become a Christian and how they want to live their life from that day forward. Then, that person goes under the water and comes back out. At my church, baptism is something for a person who is old enough to understand for themselves and has already made the choice to be a Christian on their own. Another tradition of sorts is to spend time in prayer regularly and give to others what each one is able, not in a look-at-me sort of way but with compassion and understanding. I don’t wear a head covering or know too much about that.

As far as male leadership in the family, my husband’s role is to live a life with integrity, character and honor to God by providing, protecting and wisely using the resources God gave him to love and care for his family. We are a team with different contributions who are both responsible to create a peaceful, secure Godly home. As the male figure in the home, he’s the captain who needs to know when to stand firm and be a source of strength and reliance. As a wife, I am a support to my husband and respect him. I can do this in my words of encouragement, being a listening ear, having patience, and giving time, love and attention to the man I chose to both tackle the world with and laugh through the adventure.

 

[primrose]

yup, well said. Especially:

I think for a lot of us the actual roles filled are pretty flexible.

completely agree

 

[Smilesgalore]

I think for a lot of us the actual roles filled are pretty flexible. Someone brought up the Proverbs 31 woman already. She didn’t have many options closed to her. She dabbled in real estate, manufacturing, trade and agriculture.

For many of us here the vitally important, nearly non-negotiable principle is complete male headship over his home. For most of us no man has any authority over anyone else’s woman but he has complete authority over his.

We talk about The Metaphor a lot, how the relationship between a man and a woman was designed to be a living testament to the relationship between God and His People, some folks prefer to say Christ and the Church. The Metaphor, I’m the only drama king who capitalizes it, dominates much of the thought and principles we talk about.

Someone can provide you the verses to back this up if you’re interested.

I am interested snd I wonder what happens if the man is abusive?

 

[Smilesgalore]

There’s so much here that could be delved into but a few big traditions that stand out to me are celebrating the birth of Jesus, celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, participating in communion to remember the sacrifice Jesus made out of the love for me, and baptism. Baptism to me is celebrated as the outward expression of the inward change. It is a person sharing their story of what God has done in their life, how they came to become a Christian and how they want to live their life from that day forward. Then, that person goes under the water and comes back out. At my church, baptism is something for a person who is old enough to understand for themselves and has already made the choice to be a Christian on their own. Another tradition of sorts is to spend time in prayer regularly and give to others what each one is able, not in a look-at-me sort of way but with compassion and understanding. I don’t wear a head covering or know too much about that.

As far as male leadership in the family, my husband’s role is to live a life with integrity, character and honor to God by providing, protecting and wisely using the resources God gave him to love and care for his family. We are a team with different contributions who are both responsible to create a peaceful, secure Godly home. As the male figure in the home, he’s the captain who needs to know when to stand firm and be a source of strength and reliance. As a wife, I am a support to my husband and respect him. I can do this in my words of encouragement, being a listening ear, having patience, and giving time, love and attention to the man I chose to both tackle the world with and laugh through the adventure.

This is a beautiful answer, thank you!

 

[primrose]

This is a beautiful answer, thank you!

Aw you are welcome. And mind you, my husband and I did not come from traditional male/female examples set before us so we’ve really just built the plane as we’ve flown it

I noticed your question in another post regarding abuse and I wanted to just say my perspective that a man who is abusive to the family that God has blessed him with by harming instead of keeping them safe is not honoring to God. I would not want to be that man facing God in heaven and having to give an account for such actions, especially as something as special to God as the family unit. To my understanding, the Bible states that a wife follows her husband unless it goes against God’s law. The abusive husband is the leader in the home, albeit a poor one, and a wife might need to pray and seek help all from a separate living location. The wife of an abusive husband is likely to face some tough challenges in both making sure she and/or their children are safe while also trying to be an example of Christ and praying in earnest to God for direction each step of the way. Knowing she’s not alone and being part of a strong Christian community can also make a positive difference in her navigating that kind of terrible situation.

 

[FollowingHim]

I am interested snd I wonder what happens if the man is abusive?

Headship primarily means leadership. A good leader need not even raise their voice. Only a bad leader would resort to violence.

The Bible not only forbids abuse of wives (and husbands, this does go both ways) in passages such as Ephesians 5:22-33, but teaches people how to live in positive ways that are not abusive. The first role of the Church (peers and church leaders) is to teach this, to teach men to be good husbands and women to be good wives (along with all other aspects of life as a follower of God). When that fails, we are to firmly rebuke people who are in error. And there are clear procedures outlined in scripture for how to deal with disputes between believers.

If things are unable to be resolved by the church, people can always resort to secular courts. But that is a very flawed system as anybody who has been in a domestic legal dispute will tell you, and scripture is clear it is shameful for Christians to go to law against each other as they should have been able to resolve the matter among themselves. Arbitration is always better than litigation. So the church gives a considerable amount of constructive assistance to marriages to avoid things getting to this point. Most churches make marriage ministry a priority one way or another, and this ministry exists for those marriages that can't get constructive help through normal churches.

I meant specific roles. Does it matter? In some cultures only the man is permitted to work, etc.

Back to your original question: Each to their own. Much of what we see as the appropriate gender roles is human tradition rather than scripture. Women have always worked - most women through most of history have had an ambition to NOT have to work and be free to raise children! It's all a matter of perspective. It is important for a woman to have the freedom to be at home at least when she has young children.

Polygamy actually gives women more freedom to work if they wish - one wife can go to work knowing her young children are safe at home with her sisterwife and don't have to be put into daycare.

But regarding "The Metaphor" as @The Revolting Man puts it, there is an issue with women working for a boss and having to obey him, not just obey her husband. Her husband, and by extension her family, must come first. So a particularly demanding boss, or a job with long hours or many after-hours demands, would make it difficult for her to place her husband and family first before her work. It is philosophically simpler for a wife to be working in a family business than for an external boss. Different people will set different principles regarding this - provided they have the financial freedom to do so, such principles can be a luxury of the middle class...

 

[Keith Martin]

I am interested and I wonder what happens if the man is abusive?

Well, not knowing where you're from exactly, I can't address this for your particular neck of the woods, but here in the U.S. the statistics are in and solidly affirmed and reaffirmed, both by the Department of Justice and the National Crime Victimization Survey (for which I once worked) at the Census Bureau: domestic abuse is far more often initiated by women than by men in heterosexual relationships, whether marriages or other cohabitative arrangements (furthermore, domestic abuse between gay men is rare, and lesbian relationships far and away feature the most physical violence among participants, statistically).

Having prefaced what I'm about to write with that, I have a strong response but am not certain that I know enough about what you're asking to know just what you mean by, "what happens." Are you asking what the consequences for a man being abusive of his woman would be in the context of (a) a patriarchal family structure; (b) Christianity; (c) United States law; (d) our generalized secular postmodern progressive feminist culture; or (f) something else?

My own personal response is two-fold:

1. If we lived in Utopia, the answer would be that we should all hope that the same thing would happen to a man who is abusive that would happen to a woman who is abusive.
2. Back here in the real world, though, it makes sense to hold men even more accountable than women for being abusive, because, in the real world, the consequences of men getting violent tend to be significantly more serious than the consequences of women getting violent. Men are bigger and stronger, especially with concern to upper body strength.

And I look forward to answering the next question about wondering what happens if the woman is abusive.

 

[Joleneakamama]

most women through most of history have had an ambition to NOT have to work and be free to raise children!

This is like saying be free to not work for money at a job with set hours ....so you can work your tail of as a domestic engineer, childcare provider, chief cook and bottle washer, house cleaner, business assistant to the hubby perhaps and at the end of the day put on your sexy nighty and rock his world. Hopefully after all that the kids sleep in their beds, and no one comes and barfs in yours.

It really is the best job in the world.....never dull, many opportunities to learn new skills.

Life is WAY better closer to nature. Once upon a time myself and two sister in laws were living here....and all expecting babies. Just something about those old fashioned ways of life...and a man that knows how to work, fix stuff, slaughter and butcher the meat, teach his sons how to do all that. Yup! It's a good life!!

Let me pull your boots off dear.

It might be better job share style where you can flip a coin...or do rock paper scisors with that sisterwife for who does what on a busy day.

 

[frederick]

I meant specific roles. Does it matter? In some cultures only the man is permitted to work, etc.

Thanks for the follow-up question. For those of us who believe and seek to follow what God has said in the Bible, there is more freedom and opportunity than most realize. Whatever works for each person or family, and fits within the biblical boundaries is ok.

You ask, "Does it matter?" Yes, it matters as we must all give an account to Almighty God for what we do with our lives. My counsel to young couples is to always work together, within the biblical framework, to accomplish what will be pleasing to God and build up your relationship with Him and with one another. How that works out specifically will be different for every person/couple/family. And you are quite right; culture affects what and how some people will do this. The thing to keep in mind as you consider such matters is this; one day you will give an account for your life to God who is both Lawgiver and Judge. He made the rules and you will answer to Him for what you did. Thanks again and Shalom.

 

[Smilesgalore]

Well, not knowing where you're from exactly, I can't address this for your particular neck of the woods, but here in the U.S. the statistics are in and solidly affirmed and reaffirmed, both by the Department of Justice and the National Crime Victimization Survey (for which I once worked) at the Census Bureau: domestic abuse is far more often initiated by women than by men in heterosexual relationships, whether marriages or other cohabitative arrangements (furthermore, domestic abuse between gay men is rare, and lesbian relationships far and away feature the most physical violence among participants, statistically).

Having prefaced what I'm about to write with that, I have a strong response but am not certain that I know enough about what you're asking to know just what you mean by, "what happens." Are you asking what the consequences for a man being abusive of his woman would be in the context of (a) a patriarchal family structure; (b) Christianity; (c) United States law; (d) our generalized secular postmodern progressive feminist culture; or (f) something else?

My own personal response is two-fold:

1. If we lived in Utopia, the answer would be that we should all hope that the same thing would happen to a man who is abusive that would happen to a woman who is abusive.
2. Back here in the real world, though, it makes sense to hold men even more accountable than women for being abusive, because, in the real world, the consequences of men getting violent tend to be significantly more serious than the consequences of women getting violent. Men are bigger and stronger, especially with concern to upper body strength.

And I look forward to answering the next question about wondering what happens if the woman is abusive.

I think everyone understood the root of the question that if the woman is giving up power the man has the potential to abuse his power.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am interested snd I wonder what happens if the man is abusive?

There are some relief valves for those situations but I would turn the question around. What happens when lesbians are abusive in their relationships? Lesbians have the highest reported rates of domestic violence. Would you be asking this question on a lesbian focused forum? In face since their rates if domestic violence are so high you should be asking it there.

Like any group we focus on how to do things correctly. When things go wrong, like with domestic abuse, it has to be handled individually. Every screwed up situation is screwed up uniquely so it’s hard to talk about general principles of how to deal with it.

There are some general rules. Scripture allows for a woman to separate herself from an abusive man although there are restrictions on her going to a new man.

Ideally family and community would step in and resolve the situation. While a man has complete authority in his home the fellowship can bring some pretty intense pressure to bear when necessary.

 

[Smilesgalore]

There are some relief valves for those situations but I would turn the question around. What happens when lesbians are abusive in their relationships? Lesbians have the highest reported rates of domestic violence. Would you be asking this question on a lesbian focused forum? In face since their rates if domestic violence are so high you should be asking it there.

Like any group we focus on how to do things correctly. When things go wrong, like with domestic abuse, it has to be handled individually. Every screwed up situation is screwed up uniquely so it’s hard to talk about general principles of how to deal with it.

There are some general rules. Scripture allows for a woman to separate herself from an abusive man although there are restrictions on her going to a new man.

Ideally family and community would step in and resolve the situation. While a man has complete authority in his home the fellowship can bring some pretty intense pressure to bear when necessary.

But I was asking my specific question because I am studying this culture.

 

[Smilesgalore]

There are some relief valves for those situations but I would turn the question around. What happens when lesbians are abusive in their relationships? Lesbians have the highest reported rates of domestic violence. Would you be asking this question on a lesbian focused forum? In face since their rates if domestic violence are so high you should be asking it there.

Like any group we focus on how to do things correctly. When things go wrong, like with domestic abuse, it has to be handled individually. Every screwed up situation is screwed up uniquely so it’s hard to talk about general principles of how to deal with it.

There are some general rules. Scripture allows for a woman to separate herself from an abusive man although there are restrictions on her going to a new man.

Ideally family and community would step in and resolve the situation. While a man has complete authority in his home the fellowship can bring some pretty intense pressure to bear when necessary.

Also my question was directly related to the power exchange. In most LGBT relationships such a hierarchy is not present. Of course every relationship is different. Like many Christian egalitarian relationships do not live within the hierarchy you are describing. It seems like you are assuming that I am making assumptions when truly I am trying to understand.

 

[The Revolting Man]

But I was asking my specific question because I am studying this culture.

I may be a little defensive around this issue. This is a club we get beat with a lot. The point I inexpertly was making is that the situation of abuse wouldn’t be handled much differently than in other sub-cultures.

Our beliefs are vulnerable to caricaturization (is that a word?) by some very old albeit shallow stereotypes.

Some people here believe strongly in what the call domestic discipline which includes corporal punishment for wives. I personally raise the bar for “abuse” very high. Others have a much lowe tolerance for it. It’s just hard for us as a group, and this is a very diverse group, to draw a firm, theological position on the issue of abuse .

 

[Keith Martin]

It seems like you are assuming that I am making assumptions

We're making that assumption based on the fact that you're demonstrating them.

I think everyone understood the root of the question that if the woman is giving up power the man has the potential to abuse his power.

Case in point: you assume that a woman is giving up power in a patriarchal framework. What power that she truly possesses is she giving up? Second assumption: that being in a position of power over another person inevitably leads to an increase in abuse; where is your evidence for this.

You say you're just here to learn, but your questions are generally loaded with assumed bias. Now two of us have pointed out that lesbian relationships are the most physically abusive domestic relationships, but you gloss right over that, only addressing it by claiming the following:

In most LGBT relationships such a hierarchy is not present.

Please indulge me while I mention some credentials: I started the gay/lesbian support groups at two universities where I worked decades ago and was advisor to the pre-existing ones at every other university where I was employed. These claims about male/female hierarchies have been ballyhooed for generations, but your assertion that such a hierarchy being non-existent actually demonstrates that so-called hierarchical 'power' isn't the issue, and it certainly isn't the case that it's a dynamic in which men abuse women because they have power over them. Remember these two inconvenient facts: women far and away initiate most of the physical violence within male-female domestic pairings (and it is only the highly-practiced restraint exhibited by men that prevents these skirmishes from escalating into fatalities); and lesbian relationships are those that are the most likely to involve domestic violence. Your assumption is that the supposed power a man has over a woman if she submits (is respectfully cooperative) leads to increased levels of physical violence, but the evidence is that this is NOT the case. Instead, what the two facts I just mentioned have in common is that females are more prone to physical violence than are males. Men are violent with other men with whom they're not intimately involved, but they are neither prone to physical violence with female domestic partners nor male domestic partners.

 

[Smilesgalore]

We're making that assumption based on the fact that you're demonstrating them.

Case in point: you assume that a woman is giving up power in a patriarchal framework. What power that she truly possesses is she giving up? Second assumption: that being in a position of power over another person inevitably leads to an increase in abuse; where is your evidence for this.

You say you're just here to learn, but your questions are generally loaded with assumed bias. Now two of us have pointed out that lesbian relationships are the most physically abusive domestic relationships, but you gloss right over that, only addressing it by claiming the following:

Please indulge me while I mention some credentials: I started the gay/lesbian support groups at two universities where I worked decades ago and was advisor to the pre-existing ones at every other university where I was employed. These claims about male/female hierarchies have been ballyhooed for generations, but your assertion that such a hierarchy being non-existent actually demonstrates that so-called hierarchical 'power' isn't the issue, and it certainly isn't the case that it's a dynamic in which men abuse women because they have power over them. Remember these two inconvenient facts: women far and away initiate most of the physical violence within male-female domestic pairings (and it is only the highly-practiced restraint exhibited by men that prevents these skirmishes from escalating into fatalities); and lesbian relationships are those that are the most likely to involve domestic violence. Your assumption is that the supposed power a man has over a woman if she submits (is respectfully cooperative) leads to increased levels of physical violence, but the evidence is that this is NOT the case. Instead, what the two facts I just mentioned have in common is that females are more prone to physical violence than are males. Men are violent with other men with whom they're not intimately involved, but they are neither prone to physical violence with female domestic partners nor male domestic partners.

No, actually, I was not making assumptions. I asked the same questions in the Muslim group I am in. I have received nothing but negative feedback from you . If I had been making assumptions I would have stated “due to the abuse..” or something like that. You have not painted a very bright picture of patriarchy for someone who is just asking questions.