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Gut reaction

Slumberfreeze

Slumberfreeze

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Jacob's home life (from my perspective) suuuuuucked. His wives either hated each other, or acted like it. His wives' maidservants got to be non-people to bear children for their mistresses. Nontheless, the children from each given mother formed their own little factions.

The worst part to me is that Jacob got home one night and discovered that his plans for how the evening was going to progress were meaningless. He had been purchased for the low, low price of some mandrakes.

That story does some things to me, viscerally. I feel sad for Leah that she needed to resort to this behavior to get attention from Jacob. I feel deep sympathy for Reuben that he got drawn in some small way into his parent's bedroom politics. (This is nightmare fuel for me)

And of course I cannot help but wonder how Jacob did not start flipping tables when he found out just how rotten his wives were being to each other and how they had essentially reduced him to a commodity to be traded for in their war against each other. From head of house to hired stud in one move. I would throw such a hissy fit that no-one in the house would look me in the eyes for weeks. I would break furniture and use ugly language. GAHHH!

Anyways, while it is easy for me to say that I understand the doctrines surrounding polygamy better every day; I can't say that my gut is quite as optimistic. Forgive me for displaying my deeply rooted misogyny, but when Solomon said "Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found" I bear a measure of witness. How does a man master his house with the insanity that women (no disrespect intended) bring when they get together?

Or is this whole rivalry thing not really a big deal, and Jacob just really let it get out of hand?

ps. It was slightly cathartic to type this. I feel a little better already.
 
I agree with your gut reaction. Exercise extreme caution when considering anything along these lines. ylop.
 
Heh, I was just covering this topic earlier today, as many people will use this story as an example of why poly is bad!

Yeah, that family had serious issues! Of course, most of those old testament families had some pretty big issues. Cain killed Abel, so should we not have kids? I look at it in a couple of ways.

1) We can learn from the mistakes of others. In this case, how NOT to lead a family (Jacob basically just stayed out of it and didn't do any actual leading), and the problems unchecked jealousy and comparison can cause.

and

2) If God can use these jacked up people to do such mighty things, then it gives us hope as flawed beings that we can be useful to him as well!
 
Slumberfreeze!!! ROFL @ the hissy-fit, but your gut reactions are spot on.

So the Mandrake episode. My hubby's response would have been, "Oh really? Who put you in charge? I'll take those." At which point no wife would be seeing him that night and the mandrakes may or may not have ever appeared again. lol

There is a reason in Isa 41:14 Yah refers to Israel as Jacob the worm imo. He chose Jacob not because Jacob was wonderful but because He is merciful. Ex 20:6 for example. If we love Him, He is compassionate. Jacob was a very blessed man, if not a very good leader. It gives one hope doesn't it! I agree that much of the family drama would have been avoided if he had been a good leader....but his example gives me so much joy in knowing how merciful YHVH is.
 
Hi
I can't agree with your "Gut reaction"
You use the words "hated each other" I don't see this at all.
Yes there was some rivalry but hated each other.?
Does all conflict equal hate?
Wives maid servants get to be non people?
I thought they where servants and got elevated to a type of wife?
The children formed little factions? Which verse was this I missed. I'm not a very good reader sometimes, I'll read it again.
Jacob had his plans for the evening altered but where does it say he didn't agree?
What's to say that in his house the wives made those decisions.
The low low price of some Mandrakes. ?
Where does it say the price of the Mandrakes.
Reuben drawn in some small way into bedroom politics?
Are you sure about this , I read he brought the mandrakes in from the field
Perhaps As you have read this you have put your own slant on it and assumed your life's normal is there's.
Has your history tainted your interpretation?
Or perhaps my reading is worse that I thought.
I think I will have to read it again as it appears I've miss a bunch of things
 
ylop: Thank you, I will.

UntoldGlory: I agree that this isn't really an argument against poly, but a warning against bad leadership. God's mercy IS incredible :D

Elisheba : My hissy-fits are legendary! I am envisioning your husband as John Wayne. He's a stone cold mandrake confiscator who can't be bought. It's funny that you mention Jacob as a worm, I've been meaning to do a study on towla for a while, and still haven't gotten to it.

Mr. B: That's a lot of questions there. There's no question my history has tainted my interpretation of many many things, but let me clarify:

I call them non-people as an exaggeration, but their status was below that of a wife. They remained servants to their mistresses, their children were considered their mistresses, their deaths are not recorded, I don't see that jacob ever loved either of them..

oops gotta go again! this happens sometimes.. sorry.
 
Just on the mandrakes, as a bit of a twist to the story. Mandrakes are commonly thought to have been believed by Bible folk to have been some sort of an aphrodisiac, which seems to be basing this notion off of this particular story... However, from my studies at University, it seems that back in the A.N.E., people used mandrakes as a drug to get a type of 'high'.

Read that way, this story could be even more dysfunctional...
 
Further clarification:

The mandrakes themselves were the price of his hire.

The factionizing of his children isn't in any one verse, and I may be reading into it a bit, but I think there was a reason that Levi and Simeon avenged Dinah, and that Joseph was kind to Benjamin and made the rest of them sweat. ehh... ok I know I'm reading too much into that, but it has nothing to do with my family history. I have many brothers and sisters with different moms and fathers, and there are no factions between us. They all love each other (or answer to me!) There is a serious bro-fest between two of my little brothers right now, and they have NO parents in common, HAHA!

Jacob agreed readily enough, I suppose. And I even suppose it wasn't an out of bounds thing for the wives to do. Not really. If the wife has authority over the husband's body (surely a runner up for least quoted verses)- maybe it isn't such a transgression that the women felt emboldened to barter amongst each other for sleeping arrangements. The arrangement just seems less than ideal to me.

Yeaaahh.. Reuben. Can you imagine scoring some sort of rare herb or whatever it's supposed to be and handing it to your mom, and like the next day it's gone? And you're all like... ey ma? Did someone steal our stuff? And yer mum's just sitting there rubbing her belly, she looks you in the eye and says " I think I'll call it Issachar if it's a boy... Dinah if it's a girl."

lolwut?...

I mean the positive side is that I know what it's like to know details about some of my siblings' conceptions. It's great to be able to shut down a little bro who's getting lippy by letting him know that you know EXACTLY what was going on in the laundry room of the Disneyland hotel 9 months before he was born. So there's that.

On the other hand, you now know that

a) Your father doesn't really love your mom... so what does that say about you? Hint: It means you aren't Joseph.
b) Your mom is living a very sad sort of life.

But my gut reaction wasn't the details really, it was that my gut tells me that polygamy can become complicated and dramatic really easily.

in a nutshell anyways.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
How does a man master his house with the insanity that women (no disrespect intended) bring when they get together?
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A man masters his household by mastering himself. The word 'submit', as used in the Bible, is a verb not a noun. It is something that a woman does, not something that is done to her. Breaking furniture and using ugly language are usually counter-productive if the goal is getting her to follow God's command to submit to her husband.

A man has authority over his wife, or wives, as Christ has authority over the church. When was the last time that Christ whipped you for disobedience? Or broke your furniture because you made Him mad? Or cursed at you?

I control my own actions not my wives. Five women so far have learned that coercing me to change my beliefs on polygyny does not work. They threatened to leave when I showed interest in another woman, as many women do, and I offered to help them pack their bags. I will not be controlled and that makes me the master of my household.

Jacob's mistake was in accepting the deal that Rachel and Leah had brokered for the mandrakes. My answer would have been, 'No, I sleep with whomever I choose or else I sleep alone.' I simply refuse to be controlled.

That does not involve breaking furniture, throwing hissy fits, using foul language, etc. Any man who does such things obviously has self-control issues in my opinion. A man cannot control his household until he controls himself first.
 
MrB said:
Reuben drawn in some small way into bedroom politics?
Are you sure about this , I read he brought the mandrakes in from the field
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I think this may be the verse that you missed.

1 Chronicles 5:1 NIV said:
The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel (he was the firstborn, but when he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his rights as firstborn were given to the sons of Joseph son of Israel; so he could not be listed in the genealogical record in accordance with his birthright,
Click to expand...

Yes, Reuben was drawn into the politics of the marriage and a lot more besides.
 
I am 100% sure He has destroyed one of my cars because I misrepresented Him. It wasn't exactly a whipping, but it was just and necessary for my instruction. I do expect stripes later on down the road, for I have been a truly obstinate servant. :D

But that's mostly just me being nit-picky. I take your point.

I should mention that I've never broken any furniture. Ugly language is a different matter, but I said those things mostly to convey the utter revulsion I would have if I was tested in that way.
 
Jacob had major problems with favouritism. Favourite wife. Favourite son. Son "dies" -> new favourite son. Son reappears -> favourite grandsons. Seeing a pattern here? Basically the whole mess was his own fault. But also since the problem's so obvious it should be really easy to avoid.

Also, interestingly, after Hannah's death Leah appears to have become the favourite wife. In Gen 37:9-10, Jacob refers to Joseph's "mother" bowing down to him. But Joseph's mother Rachel was dead (11 brothers, so this is after Benjamin's birth & Rachel's death), and Jacob had three other wives, presumably still alive. Who is this "mother"? My best guess is that it's the new favourite, presumably Leah. This man had serious issues.

Something similar seems to be the case with Elkanah. He gave Hannah special treatment because "he loved her" (1 Samuel 1:5-7). He repeatedly reinforced this year after year. Peninnah would tease Hannah about being barren, but why did she see a need to? Might this not simply have been her revenge against her for Elkanah's favouritism? Somewhat speculative but makes sense to me - my gut reaction is still "favouritism = very bad idea".
 
A few thoughts that occurred to me as I re-read this story, because Jacob obviously had a tendency to choose favorites, but there is more to this story to consider.

1) People and their relationships change over time and this story spans a great deal of time, with some serious changes.
2)Jacob didn't choose Leah in the first place and feeling love for someone you didn't choose takes a long time and intentional effort. (As an adoptive parent, I'm well familiar with this.)
3)Somewhere along the lines, Rachael and Leah made peace and stopped fighting with each other. I believe this is shortly after the incident with the Mandrake roots, but that takes some reading between lines. Mostly, I base that thought on the fact that they were definitely in one accord about leaving Paddan-Aram.
4)By the time they all left Paddan-Aram it is apparent that Jacob has come to respect, and probably even love, Leah, or he wouldn't have called her out to the field with Rachael to have a say about leaving.
5)The status of Jacob's other wives is a bit different from a wife in our culture. Sometimes they are called wives, but others they are called concubines, or most often servant-wives. It's apparently a cultural thing for them to have a completely different satus and I would never claim to understand the intricacies of the cultural implications, but could it be that Rachael's servant, who while a wife to Jacob was still a servant, took a great part in raising him and she was the mother referred to in the dream?

Often people use this story as an argument against poly, but when you see how the family developed into a more loving, better functioning unit, that also voids the argument, as many monogamist marriages have to develop over time in similar manners.
 
FollowingHim: I hear you. My guts like your guts. :D

GloryGirl: I do agree that it didn't quite end in tears the way I would have expected. I don't see this as an argument against poly, but a cautionary tale about what happens if you don't lead your house appropriately.
 
I also don't see this as a cautionary tale against poly, I've just heard it used that way. Of course, the same argument would mean you should never have children, but people don't like to hear that.
 
GloryGirl said:
I also don't see this as a cautionary tale against poly, I've just heard it used that way. Of course, the same argument would mean you should never have children, but people don't like to hear that.
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No, they don't. There are a lot of people in this world who don't want to hear anything that rocks their boat regardless of how true it might be.
 
FollowingHim said:
Jacob had major problems with favouritism. Favourite wife. Favourite son. Son "dies" -> new favourite son. Son reappears -> favourite grandsons. Seeing a pattern here? Basically the whole mess was his own fault. But also since the problem's so obvious it should be really easy to avoid.
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FollowingHim - my husband is telling me that favouritism is biblical, he quoted Jacob, he says it's biblical to love less/ love more one wife or the other. He also added, that as with children, the parents have favourites also. Any thoughts?
 
My thought is that every relationship will be different, they won't be the same and really shouldn't be. Anyone who has bought Christmas gifts for multiple kids knows that you can't make everything "even". There are times I like a given child more or less, but I don't think that's the same thing as "loving" them more or less. I do believe the favoritism shown by Jacob was cautionary. While I think it would be counterproductive to try and make everything equal all the time, actual favoritism would likely be detrimental to the family.

I don't think God was a big fan of the favoritism either: "When the LORD saw that Leah was unloved, he enabled her to have children, but Rachel could not conceive".

It's to be expected that there will be a "honeymoon phase", and that in any relationship romance will go through waxing and waning cycles, but again, that's different than a "you're my favorite" kind on mentality.
 
Ohhhhh yeeeaaaahhh!

You know I have a son that is mellow and rational and just about exactly my temperament. And my daughter is a tiny alleged human that has no caution or capability to learn from her mistakes.

I love them both so much that it defies quantification, but in reality my interactions with my son are calmer, enjoyable affairs and I mostly just follow my daughter around with intent to slap her around for whatever she's doing now. I can task my son to bring in wood for the stove while I get the fire started. I must restrain my daughter from climbing into the fire pit.

I would deny having favorites. BUT my son envies the amount of time I spend with my daughter, and my daughter envies the freedom and privileges of my son. Different people require different responses, even IF there's no favoritism involved. Add to that the fact that people DO suck and will have favorites even if they aren't aware of it, and we're all pretty much hosed.

It isn't as though I chose to like pizza and dislike okra. Preferences are like that, my tongue chose for me. If okra had feelings, I would would learn to like okra, but it would be a learning process. And it would be quite some time before I destroyed a plate of okra with the same enthusiasm that I would wreck a pizza with.

I'm not sure where I was going with that. Equality is something we're not really promised. I am tempted to believe that Jesus does not feel as strongly about me as He does the Jews. I do know He loves me enough to die for me, so we're already at the "You had me at hello" stage and it shouldn't really matter to me that I might be His okra. My postmodern barbarian background surely isn't His favorite, but He loves me pretty well anyways.

What IS scriptural is "Those who had much did not have too much, and those who had little did not have too little" which is to say everyone got enough, whether much or little. I think a husband of more than one wife (or indeed, a father of more than one child) should strive to limit lavishing over-abundant affection on his "favorite" (*cough* coat of many colors *cough*) and should strive to make sure that his less-favorites should suffer no lack of affection.

And if you do seem to be less preferred, there is no point in saying "prefer me more". There are going to be 144,000 guys that get to follow Jesus around wherever He goes. None of us are them. Lord knows a polygamy discussion website would be a weird place for Jewish virgins to hang out. Commit yourself to the Lord, rejoice in your place in His life, and rejoice that those 144,000 are there for Him as He purposed. You will please Him more that way, and at His right hand are pleasures forever more. There is enough love to go around.

I know it's not exactly the same, but we get all jealous about our parent's/husband's perceived favoritism and not so much about Jesus's perceived favoritism. Even though our temporary human douchenozzle affiliates are not worthy to be compared with the Lord of Glory.

Humans are lame.
 
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