Had a talk with pastor lol

[NickF]

Not a single scripture was brought that showed Poly as sinful. Just straw man, and false equivalency. Eisegesis from someone who espouses strict Exegetical reading of scripture. THEN I almost laughed out loud when he had the pride and audacity to proclaim "honestly I think that polygamy is a doctrine of devils".

Literally quoted a scripture about the doctrine of devils being forbidding to marry, while he was forbidding to marry... I think someone's conscience is seared...

Approached this as an academic interest and truthfully explained that I am not living in polygamy, nor am I pursuing anybody to that end, not looking to add a wife, or anything of the sort. Simply trying to find the truth in the Word alone. He was shocked when I was not convinced by his lack of scripture proving his case that marriage is intended to be monogamy.

My points were as follows:

1. God has illustrated himself as having multiple wives: God would not portray himself as evil or contradicting his laws
2. No scriptural commandment designating it as sin.
3. Scriptural commandments requiring the marriage of someone regardless of your marital status.
3. Scriptural commandments regulating how marriage to multiple women is to be conducted.
4. No chastisement or speaking against a man for having multiple women.
5. Because of all this, the ecclesia's denouncement of Polygny is unbiblical, and a holdover from pagan rome and greece.

He was responding to my first casual questions from the other day where I mentioned God never called it sin, and that he portrayed himself as having multiple wives. Also that God through Nathan said He (God) would have given David more wives if he wanted them. That God would not condone or assist sin.
I said "Sin is transgression against God's Law"

I'll copy his whole scriptural printout he gave me a little later today. Thinking of just giving him a copy of "The Great Omission"... But I have a feeling I'd be casting pearls... might be best to just let it go and tell him I've dropped the matter (of discussing it).

 

[frederick]

Not a single scripture was brought that showed Poly as sinful. Just straw man, and false equivalency. Eisegesis from someone who espouses strict Exegetical reading of scripture. THEN I almost laughed out loud when he had the pride and audacity to proclaim "honestly I think that polygamy is a doctrine of devils".

Literally quoted a scripture about the doctrine of devils being forbidding to marry, while he was forbidding to marry... I think someone's conscience is seared...

Approached this as an academic interest and truthfully explained that I am not living in polygamy, nor am I pursuing anybody to that end, not looking to add a wife, or anything of the sort. Simply trying to find the truth in the Word alone. He was shocked when I was not convinced by his lack of scripture proving his case that marriage is intended to be monogamy.

My points were as follows:

1. God has illustrated himself as having multiple wives: God would not portray himself as evil or contradicting his laws
2. No scriptural commandment designating it as sin.
3. Scriptural commandments requiring the marriage of someone regardless of your marital status.
3. Scriptural commandments regulating how marriage to multiple women is to be conducted.
4. No chastisement or speaking against a man for having multiple women.
5. Because of all this, the ecclesia's denouncement of Polygny is unbiblical, and a holdover from pagan rome and greece.

He was responding to my first casual questions from the other day where I mentioned God never called it sin, and that he portrayed himself as having multiple wives. Also that God through Nathan said He (God) would have given David more wives if he wanted them. That God would not condone or assist sin.
I said "Sin is transgression against God's Law"

I'll copy his whole scriptural printout he gave me a little later today. Thinking of just giving him a copy of "The Great Omission"... But I have a feeling I'd be casting pearls... might be best to just let it go and tell him I've dropped the matter (of discussing it).

Good points and presented in a plain and clear manner. BUT it doesn't fit the current popular narrative so, like taking ivermectin for covid, it's vigorously rejected. There's nothing new under the sun. Thanks for sharing.

 

[NickF]

Is it a sin? Show me with scripture alone where GOD calls it sin.
1 John 3:4​

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

This is going to be my response IF I decide it's even worth a response.

Jeremiah 3, 31:31-32
Why would God portray himself practicing a supposed "doctrine of devils"? Is the Lord not holy? Is he changing? Does his Law pass away? Is he a sinner?

Not one law proscribing this practice. Numerous laws regulating how it was to be managed for the protection of women.

Numerous laws proscribing specific sexual acts and defining them as immoral and sinful. Not one of those laws touches a man having 2 wives. However there are laws specifying what women he may take to wife.

That anybody can call themselves a "Bible believer" and not see this is shocking to me.

The only arguments I have heard take scripture out of context, misappropriate scripture, twist, or pervert scripture. Use traditions or culture to dictate morality. Or make up a doctrine that does not exist with eisegetical nonsense. See Matthew 19 on Divorce and the original plan of lifetime commitment. Then take that and read into it your own ideas and pass that off as "applying the principle" to polygny.

I want you guys and gals to shoot holes in my arguments if possible. Please play the worldly church's advocate. (similar to devil's advocate but sometimes worse).

What's crazy is I'm not even someone who really wants a second wife! I wish this would all go away and I could live my life in peace. I don't want the upheaval, (and for those of you who know who strongbad is) "what with all the letter writing and the angry mothers and the subsequent stringing me up in town for all to see"

But the problem is I believe God isn't going to let me walk away from this one. I mean while I don't want the drama, that's just my selfishness on display. There's a need, and I think I'm gifted and trained enough to actually do well with 2 or more women. Just working through the "but do I hafta" attitude.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Numerous laws regulating how it was to be managed for the protection of women.

No authority regulates a prohibited practice. "You are not allowed to murder, but when you do follow xyz rules."

Man lost track of what marriage was "A cohabitating sexual relationship" and now think it is a legal contract with the state as a third party. Then they refuse to look at the laws in the bible regulating the practice.
How many men apply "she isn't related to me" rational when they take their step daughters to bed WITH NO REALIZATION that YHWH considers that marriage, and marrying a woman AND her daughter was a death penalty offense?

Too many!

And too many ministers today are like so many law enforcement officers. They act like they are the law instead of studying it so they can actually get it right.

 

[Sam Speaks]

I can sympathize with pastors. Most of them lay down their lives for their flocks, year in, year out. And most of them have relationships within their denominations that would be severed (ie, they would be defrocked). Plus they know the world (and 99% of the church) will be against them if they openly affirm PM.

Now imagine one guy in your congregation challenges you on PM. If you affirm it, your church will split (really it would be even worse than most church splits because of the topic) and you will become the talk of the town, never to recover. You will most certainly be defrocked, never to recover. And there is no PM friendly denomination to take you in.

What are the chances you are going to affirm PM just because this one guy had good arguments? If it happens at all, it will probably take years and the pastor would be starting over in life with the world against him. Much more traumatizing than a regular layman getting booted out by his church.

 

[Farmer Moses]

I can sympathize with pastors. Most of them lay down their lives for their flocks, year in, year out. And most of them have relationships within their denominations that would be severed (ie, they would be defrocked). Plus they know the world (and 99% of the church) will be against them if they openly affirm PM.

Now imagine one guy in your congregation challenges you on PM. If you affirm it, your church will split (really it would be even worse than most church splits because of the topic) and you will become the talk of the town, never to recover. You will most certainly be defrocked, never to recover. And there is no PM friendly denomination to take you in.

What are the chances you are going to affirm PM just because this one guy had good arguments? If it happens at all, it will probably take years and the pastor would be starting over in life with the world against him. Much more traumatizing than a regular layman getting booted out by his church.

I hear what you are saying on a human level and it is logical in a way, but I am sure the scribes and pharisees had much to lose as well if they acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God and Messiah. Not that the weight of these biblical truths are equivalent. But at the same time, truth is truth and lies are lies. Isaiah 5:20 comes to mind:
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! And they being teaching elders have a greater responsibility for rightly dividing the word of God than laypeople. They should be more concerned with how they will answer God for what they have taught and led their flock to believe on the last day than their salary and fringe benefits. Matthew 18:6 comes to mind as well. Just sayin.

 

[NickF]

Isaiah 5:20 comes to mind:
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! And they being teaching elders have a greater responsibility for rightly dividing the word of God than laypeople. They should be more concerned with how they will answer God for what they have taught and led their flock to believe on the last day than their salary and fringe benefits.

I was thinking this while he was explaining that the thing I was discussing was "a doctrine of demons". If it is, then it should be easy to prove using scripture.

I can sympathize with pastors. Most of them lay down their lives for their flocks, year in, year out. And most of them have relationships within their denominations that would be severed (ie, they would be defrocked). Plus they know the world (and 99% of the church) will be against them if they openly affirm PM.

Now imagine one guy in your congregation challenges you on PM. If you affirm it, your church will split (really it would be even worse than most church splits because of the topic) and you will become the talk of the town, never to recover. You will most certainly be defrocked, never to recover. And there is no PM friendly denomination to take you in.

What are the chances you are going to affirm PM just because this one guy had good arguments? If it happens at all, it will probably take years and the pastor would be starting over in life with the world against him. Much more traumatizing than a regular layman getting booted out by his church.

I totally hear and sympathize with this. But no man can serve two masters. You either serve God and stand for truth, or you bow down to culture, the world, mammon, and submit to that master rather than God. His works will be tried by fire as will mine. It's my responsibility to ensure what I am teaching my children, and that the way I am leading my wife is in accordance with God's will. He should affirm scripture, and to hell with the world's sinfulness. Sadly he has either been consumed by a masters in divinity and the glory of that piece of paper, or he has fallen prey to his own pride. Scripture is clear on this issue.

 

[NickF]

And too many ministers today are like so many law enforcement officers. They act like they are the law instead of studying it so they can actually get it right.

Ooof. That hits so close to the mark. It's pride and vanity. Hurts my heart because I truly love the guy. But I think he is too consumed in his own self righteousness and pride to be able to come to the knowledge of the truth. There doesn't seem to be any logic or truth that would convince him. Probably best to just walk away from the fight.

 

[FollowingHim]

I was thinking this while he was explaining that the thing I was discussing was "a doctrine of demons". If it is, then it should be easy to prove using scripture.

Exactly.
You could just ask him where, in scripture, it says that polygamy is a doctrine of demons.

Probably best to just walk away from the fight.

But that is the right response at this stage. He's not in a mood to change his mind, and if you push it too far he's going to think there's something going on that you're not telling him about which is behind your sudden interest in polygamy. At this stage it doesn't matter so you can drop it.

But seeds have been sown. Continue to expect him to back his views with scripture in other areas also. Be the guy constantly pushing him back to the Word on all things - not the guy that's obsessed with polygamy. This topic will come back up again if God wants it to, and by then the Holy Spirit may have worked on him a bit more.

I still recall the odd challenging statement people have made to me over my life. When I cannot adequately answer something, sometimes it sticks in my mind and keeps bothering me, sometimes for years, until I've figured it out. If he is frustrated or embarrassed that he could not answer you from scripture, this may keep churning in his mind for a long time.

 

[NickF]

Exactly.
You could just ask him where, in scripture, it says that polygamy is a doctrine of demons.

But that is the right response at this stage. He's not in a mood to change his mind, and if you push it too far he's going to think there's something going on that you're not telling him about which is behind your sudden interest in polygamy. At this stage it doesn't matter so you can drop it.

But seeds have been sown. Continue to expect him to back his views with scripture in other areas also. Be the guy constantly pushing him back to the Word on all things - not the guy that's obsessed with polygamy. This topic will come back up again if God wants it to, and by then the Holy Spirit may have worked on him a bit more.

I still recall the odd challenging statement people have made to me over my life. When I cannot adequately answer something, sometimes it sticks in my mind and keeps bothering me, sometimes for years, until I've figured it out. If he is frustrated or embarrassed that he could not answer you from scripture, this may keep churning in his mind for a long time.

Thanks for confirming, I've noticed two trends of yours in reading hundreds of posts in this forum. Side tracking the OP from the subject, and really wise and pithy stabs straight to the heart of the matter. Glad to have the latter this evening

 

[Joleneakamama]

Exactly.
You could just ask him where, in scripture, it says that polygamy is a doctrine of demons.

When one is the sort that includes the "first book of opinions" as cannon the conversation is a dead end road.

This topic will come back up again if God wants it to, and by then the Holy Spirit may have worked on him a bit more.

My hubby had his brother that was adamant polygyny was sin come back years later, after much serious bible study, and acknowledge that he was wrong and it is biblical.

Those dead end roads can get pushed through.....but not usually by the mere mortal friend or relative they initially disagree with.

 

[steve]

The problem with a monitized religious system is that popularity controls the purse strings.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

There’s a good chance you’re going to be shunned, at least by him... perhaps the whole congregation. Hopefully not, but I’ve seen it happen and experienced it personally. But, be joyful in persecution, because you are standing up for the truth found in God’s holy Scriptures.
Proverbs 30:5-6 KJV “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Every bit of truth in God’s word matters.

 

[PeteR]

But the problem is I believe God isn't going to let me walk away from this one. I mean while I don't want the drama, that's just my selfishness on display. There's a need, and I think I'm gifted and trained enough to actually do well with 2 or more women. Just working through the "but do I hafta" attitude.

Welcome to the crucible... It's threads like this that confirm we are part of something Yah is doing, not the crazy wanderings of our hearts. HE is clearly opening the eyes of those who are seeking Him and are willing to risk or even lay down personal reputation, ministry, family, friends, etc to follow His.

Blessings on your journey!

 

[Bass Reeves]

I can sympathize with pastors. Most of them lay down their lives for their flocks, year in, year out. And most of them have relationships within their denominations that would be severed (ie, they would be defrocked). Plus they know the world (and 99% of the church) will be against them if they openly affirm PM.

Now imagine one guy in your congregation challenges you on PM. If you affirm it, your church will split (really it would be even worse than most church splits because of the topic) and you will become the talk of the town, never to recover. You will most certainly be defrocked, never to recover. And there is no PM friendly denomination to take you in.

What are the chances you are going to affirm PM just because this one guy had good arguments? If it happens at all, it will probably take years and the pastor would be starting over in life with the world against him. Much more traumatizing than a regular layman getting booted out by his church.

I could sympathize with the pastors position until a few months ago when I read Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola. Recognizing that churches exist and operate in the west with no scriptural warrant, that the vast majority of teachings and practices are adopted from Greco-Roman Paganism where they also kidnapped enforced monogamy from was a major step for me in deciding to leave the institutional church.

The Western Church has strayed so far from biblical doctrine it's almost not recognizable their practice. The office (rather than ministry) of the pastor isn't laid out in scripture. Pastors have interposed themselves as the spokesperson for YHWH and in the process taken on a burden none of us were given to carry. As long as the pastor remains more committed to his denomination or churches confession of faith than he is to the scripture, he is furthering pagan worship in his congregation. We must be willing to give all to advance the Kingdom, that all includes reputation, church harmony, fellowship and all the credentials we earned from the worldly systems if they require us to teach that which is directly contrary to the scripture.

 

[NickF]

I could sympathize with the pastors position until a few months ago when I read Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola. Recognizing that churches exist and operate in the west with no scriptural warrant, that the vast majority of teachings and practices are adopted from Greco-Roman Paganism where they also kidnapped enforced monogamy from was a major step for me in deciding to leave the institutional church.

The Western Church has strayed so far from biblical doctrine it's almost not recognizable their practice. The office (rather than ministry) of the pastor isn't laid out in scripture. Pastors have interposed themselves as the spokesperson for YHWH and in the process taken on a burden none of us were given to carry. As long as the pastor remains more committed to his denomination or churches confession of faith than he is to the scripture, he is furthering pagan worship in his congregation. We must be willing to give all to advance the Kingdom, that all includes reputation, church harmony, fellowship and all the credentials we earned from the worldly systems if they require us to teach that which is directly contrary to the scripture.

Just checked the book out from my library. Been looking forward to it. Maybe I’ll suggest it for a bible study with all the men in the church we’ve been going to. *trollface*

 

[Keith Martin]

Just checked the book out from my library. Been looking forward to it. Maybe I’ll suggest it for a bible study with all the men in the church we’ve been going to. *trollface*

Totally awesome book, though; a few years ago it was the central discussion in the men's break-out group at a summer gathering. Definitely qualifies as a gateway drug into the realm of biblical truth.

 

[Bass Reeves]

View attachment 2886
Totally awesome book, though; a few years ago it was the central discussion in the men's break-out group at a summer gathering. Definitely qualifies as a gateway drug into the realm of biblical truth.

Gateway drug? I guess churches need to ban it before too many people become addicted

 

[Mc_B]

Has anyone read the rest of Frank Viola's series from Pagan Christianity? Looks like the first is everything wrong and the next ones are how to fix it.

 

[Keith Martin]

Has anyone read the rest of Frank Viola's series from Pagan Christianity? Looks like the first is everything wrong and the next ones are how to fix it.

I've read them all. Pagan Christianity is the lodestone. The others are good but don't rise to the quality of Pagan Christianity. Viola's passion is clearly home churching, but as the series proceeds, if my memory serves me correctly, he delves more and more into his very particular prescriptions for how to exactly implement home churching.