honourable marriage

[steve]

in one of these threads the idea of marrying prior to, or without, any ceremony was mentioned as if it was a reasonable, biblical way for a marriage to begin.
i agree that it is a way, but not one that honours the state of marriage nor the participants (especially the chief participant, our Creator).

i would like to see the biblical justification for promoting this idea.
please do not use the brides relationship with Yeshua as proof, and be carefull with assumptions about isaac and rebecca.

i think that this board needs to be very careful to not promote any "underhanded" methods of marriage. do we really want to support the idea that "secret" marriages are healthy for this movement?

secret from the neighbors, i get it
secret from the workplace, maybe but it may come back to bite you
secret from your physical family, numerous ones can testify to the shortsightedness of this one

 

[porkchop]

Yes this will be interesting...we talk about all of these things almost every day but so far haven't come up with any practical solutions at all.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

i would like to see the biblical justification for promoting this idea.

I would like to see Biblical justification for the idea that the government or the church must give approval before a man and woman can marry.

I would like to see Biblical justification for the idea that there must be some ceremony before a couple is considered married.

In spite of the fact that I don't think it is a Biblical requirement, it is a good idea to have some kind of ceremony. We humans sometimes need to have things "driven home" so that we are reminded of the serious nature of marriage, and a ceremony with witnesses and preferably a minister, elder, or other Christian leader "officiating" is one way to do that. (I put the quote marks around "officiating" because it is not official according to the government unless they have given permission for the wedding to take place!)

Yes this will be interesting...we talk about all of these things almost every day but so far haven't come up with any practical solutions at all.

uhhh....help? How and when do we tell family? friends? fellow church members? coworkers? others? I got fired as Assistant Pastor and disfellowshipped just for saying that the Bible does not teach that it is a sin for a man to have more than one wife. And that was in private conversations with other leaders, not public a public statement made while preaching or teaching! Had any bigwig from that denomination actually read my Doctoral Dissertation, they would have burned me at the stake!

What will happen if/when I take a second wife? After my experiences, I'm sort-of gun shy about telling anyone!

But trying to keep it a secret just won't work.

 

[porkchop]

It's a rock and hard place.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

BTW, "disfellowshipped" is what the Roman Catholic Church would call "excommunicated."

The difference is that the denomination I was kicked out of kicked me out because I obviously backslid and lost my salvation, :twisted: then refused to recant the truth...so they don't want me contaminating their tradition with Biblical Truth.

As I understand it (someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong) the RCC says you lose your salvation if you are excommunicated, not that you are excommunicated because you already lost it.

If a person is going to be judged by the same standards that he uses to judge others, the leaders of that denomination are in trouble. I was branded a backslider and kicked out for "believing a lie!"

 

[porkchop]

I think you're right on that..I remember getting the wrath of my mother-in-law when my husband was excommunicated because he stopped attending church. Because I was a (horrid protestant) somehow it was my fault. My in-laws still think he's going to hell now and it's still my fault!

 

[ylop]

Steve I think you are absolutely onto something here. I had been thinking along the same lines and in fact yesterday talked with one of my sons about the concept of honour in general.

Rock and a hard place as donnag said is where I am at. Mainly because I have come to the position where, as with my current wife, I must obtain the additional woman's father's consent to marry her. If her father does not consent, I will not marry her.

This is not a sidetrack from your original post but a reinforcement of the concepts of honour, family and openness.

Like Polydoc, I do not think that any consent is required from church or government to marry. And my personal views of government's role are anarcho-capitalist.

However for me, if I pursue a woman against her father's consent, I am encouraging her to break the commandment of honouring her mother and father. And I won't do that. This being almost entirely theoretical at this stage, I have to envisage a scenario whereby I find a woman who may consent to a polygamous marriage, somehow get her to agree for me to speak with her father about it, all the while not touching her or doing anything inappropriate, then getting her father's consent, then making sure she still wants to proceed, then actually marrying her in some kind of ceremony that is not public so i dont get arrested but not private so i am not being sneaky, then hoping my wife doesnt withdraw her previous consent to the relationship (because i am sure it will be harder on her in reality than theory), then hoping that my new wife hangs in despite all social pressure...rock and hard place is an underestimate.

ylop

 

[Anonymous]

Because I was a (horrid protestant) somehow it was my fault. My in-laws still think he's going to hell now and it's still my fault!

It probably is your fault. You're such a trouble maker. :lol:
Seriously, Most churches or denominations that are supremely authoritarian have a death grip on the conscience of their people and cause them to live in the bondage of fear. It must be a tremendous responsibility to be the keeper and dispensor of the grace of God. People just don't want to pay the price of blind obedience. Imagine that! I for one desire to leave that authority in the hands of the One to whom it belongs, God Himself. More on track with this thread topic, too many institutions and even individuals have the notion that it is in their hands to determine what is an honorable marriage. The criteria for what is an honorable marriage is the Bible. Does the Bible have a prescribed marriage ceremony? No! Does the Bible have examples of procedures used that were acceptable? Yes! Does God require any of these procedures? No! As the trio sees it (me, myself and I), what makes an honorable marriage is the meeting of Biblical conditions for marriage itself and the intentions of the Groom, bride and bride's parents (where parents are available). For the rest of this comment I am not responsible for the opinions of Me & Myself. :?

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

I must obtain the additional woman's father's consent to marry her.

The lady most likely to become my second wife has no father. (He went home to be with the Lord about 11 years ago.) Her brother is an on again/off again Christian and so I do not think he would care one way or the other, unless he is really opposed to poly. (Which he might be, being a Baptist...)

What would be the honorable thing here? Ask her aunt, who is one of the finest Christians I know? (She is married and is wavering about accepting poly...and Dr. Allen, you know who she is, see those PMs we exchanged! CecilW, you know, too - remember our phone conversation? You two might respond with a PM if you have any specific advice. ) Ask her mother, who is a believer but has had a drinking problem since her husband died? Or just go for it?

In OT patriarchal families, there was a clear line of succession when the family patriarch died. Should we seek to follow that? (If so, asking her aunt or mother is out!)

The lady is a widow - twice. So maybe there would be no need to ask anyone other than her. But then, what happens when her friends and relatives find out...?

What have others done in similar situations? Was that honorable? Would you do it that way again in a similar situation?

 

[Anonymous]

I must obtain the additional woman's father's consent to marry her.

This is a confusing issue for me.
I was adopted. My adopted father died when I was 10. I found my real father when I was 16 yrs. old and from that time on, I considered him my father. He is not a Christian and some of his decisions in life have not been good ones. I know he cares about me but I can't see him approving or consenting to my being in a polygynous marriage. I'm an adult, so I'm not seeing how he should be allowed to control my choice of husband.....he's been married 4 times...so making wise marriage choices for himself have not exactly been his "forte"....I would never want to deliberately disrespect him but why should he be allowed to veto my marriage? If God is approving of my marriage choice, why isn't that enough ?

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Anonymous]

I must obtain the additional woman's father's consent to marry her.

I found my real father when I was 16 yrs. old and from that time on, I considered him my father. He is not a Christian and some of his decisions in life have not been good ones. I know he cares about me but I can't see him approving or consenting to my being in a polygynous marriage.

A biological father whose child has been given up for adoption forfeits his authority to serve as his daughters head when the adoption takes place. An adult woman with no paternal head must assume the authority to speak for herself regarding marriage. Common sense is the best sense when understanding the nuances of the Bible.

 

[ylop]

For those with tricky/unclear fatherhood issues, I would defer to the subject of this thread: honourable marriage. There will not always be a clearcut solution to these dilemmas, however if we act with honourable intent we should be on the right path.

ylop

ps DTT I am waiting for you to post "what if her father is a satanist?"

 

[CecilW]

Fairlight:

The reason we have 2 different words in English, "honor" and "obey" are because they are two different things.

We are required to honor our parents throughout life. Obey them? Not so much. There is a season for that.

If some want to make it a lifelong absolute until you actually marry the first time, regardless of your age, level of maturity, and circumstances vis-a-vis your "father", they are free to do so, just as you are free to accept or reject their viewpoint.

My viewpoint? Let common sense reign. Do we follow through on stoning nowadays? No. Why not? Perhaps someone observed that the point had been made, but being stoned to death precluded the possibility of repentance later on. Common sense observation and application.

God's laws are made for our protection, freedom, and life-enhancement -- not us made for the law.

PolyDoc:

You answered your own question. When a woman has been married and either divorced or widowed, Scripture is clear that she is free from another's oversight and responsible for herself. (Passage available if needed.)

 

[steve]

Planning to build a strong tower makes it more likely that you will succeed, and instead of mocking others may say "Look at that fellow's tower, it is not so bad after all, maybe I should build one too, or at least not throw rocks at it".ylop

this is why i feel that we need to build our marriages in honourable, noble ways.

build in a way that can be admired, not in secretive, deceitful ways.
count the cost, and build what you can be proud of. if you cannot be proud of and defend your relationships, you may want to rethink your "right" to do what you are contemplating, or have done.

peter did not prepare himself to defend his relationship with our Lord and found himself denying the relationship with the resultant condemnation that he experienced.
will we make this same mistake for our own protection? worse yet, will we promote a lifestyle of deceit?

if we ever expect polygyny to be accepted in our society, we may need to not hide it and deny it like a secret sin.

prepare to build a strong, beautiful, visible tower, my friends, and let the Lord defend it. and let the people rejoice.