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Investing in the 'Prosperity Gospel'

D

DrRay777

Member
I know that this may offend some, so I apologize in advance. However, I thought this was interesting to show how there is a rift in the church between those who preach 'the prosperity gospel' and those who see this movement as inappropriate, especially for these times. I personally believe that the TV ministries do preach the right principles about needing to give in order to help one's finances. However, I do not believe that their approach is really healthy for the financial status of the church over time, as they do not teach the people to change their behavior. A good example is the truck driver in the story who is now over $100,000 in debt and is currently 'sowing' into the Copeland ministry, hoping that God will bail them out as He did in years past when they were in the same boat. Since they did not learn from their first lesson, I am not sure that God will rescue them this time. I know of many people who have subscribed to this approach and have not seen the fruits of their efforts. If anyone else has an opinion/experience here, I would like to hear it...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32432565/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
I do not have all the words to back up what I say, but I believe that this particular idea is unrealistic. God loves us where we are, but he expects us to grow and continue to grow to become more Christlike. Christ did not have financial prosperity when he walked on the earth. I think that it is irresponsible for any ministry to teach that by giving to the ministry, God will bail you out of your troubles. Even the first time around it is irresponsible. Don't they also teach that you can overcome physical problems if you only have enough faith? Well, if that is the case, why does Mr. Copeland wear glasses?

Just like when a person commits murder. God may forgive the murderer but the murderer must still pay for his crimes on the earth. The same holds true for the truck driver with all that debt. God may forgive him, but he must still pay the price for his irresponsibility. I haven't asked God to eliminate the debt that I have. I used that credit card, I ran up the bill and I will pay it. I can ask God to keep my paycheck coming in and to help me to use his provision wisely, but I still have to pay that debt.

SweetLissa
 
I agree as well, but in particular I am not convinced that giving to Caesar's 501c(3) tax-advantaged media-endorsed corporate 'church' is obedience to God, or His purposes.

Remember, in general Satan tells about 80% truth...



Blessings,
Mark
 
I agree. I believe that when we do stupid things, we will suffer. That suffering, (unlike suffering for doing the right thing) we will get no extra credit for, but it is supposed to help teach us lessons. When people go into debt to the 'Babylonian' banking system, they are bound to suffer for that stupidity. God showed me several years ago that I must get out of debt and not go back in. He did help bail me out, but I worked to pay off the debts as well. I suffered and when I paid the last credit card off in early 2006, I rejoiced greatly. I have been debt free twice in my life and I am hopeful, with the grace of God, not going to go down that path again. I understand that people can have tragedy or unforeseen circumstances strike and they feel they have no other option but to go into debt. This is clearly a different situation from those of us who used the credit to get things that we should have saved for. Credit is the opposite of love, because love is first and most importantly patient.

I believe that these prosperity preachers are feeding the flock an unhealthy message and with Ezekiel chapter 34 in mind, I believe that they will need to answer for it soon.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
One more point is this...
The article mentioned investing in God. Who says that investing in this particular ministry is actually investing in God?

SweetLissa
 
Someone who gets money out of a fish's mouth doesn't have a problem with miracles and faith involving money. The people who have problems with this scripture are either those that refuse to fish or those that rejoice over the coin and then ask God for another coin so that they can buy a fish to eat.

Matthew 17:27 (King James Version)

Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
 
Nothing to do with money......just a response to the following.

"Just like when a person commits murder. God may forgive the murderer but the murderer must still pay for his crimes on the earth."

Why? If that was the case, then the apostle Paul (Saul) who assisted in the murder of Christians should have been in jail or executed instead of spreading the gospel on his missionary journeys.

Acts 8:2-3 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Acts 9:1-2 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 7:59-60 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.....
Acts 9:25-27 Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket. And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

People in the early church had valid problems with Paul, but Barnabas took him in and managed to fall asleep at night while later traveling with Paul.
 
I was actually talking about today's world. If a murderer confesses and repents they still have to serve their sentances in the real world. I can't say anything about the justice systems in their days, I was simply talking about the reality we live in.

SweetLissa
 
welltan said:
Someone who gets money out of a fish's mouth doesn't have a problem with miracles and faith involving money. The people who have problems with this scripture are either those that refuse to fish or those that rejoice over the coin and then ask God for another coin so that they can buy a fish to eat.

Matthew 17:27 (King James Version)

Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are saying here. Please explain. I must be missing the point.

Thanks.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
sweetlissa said:
I was actually talking about today's world. If a murderer confesses and repents they still have to serve their sentances in the real world. I can't say anything about the justice systems in their days, I was simply talking about the reality we live in.

SweetLissa
Click to expand...

This should probably be a different thread, but my opinion is that Christians are too willing to join the world at a public hanging. I agree that if a non Christian confesses and repents they still have results in the real world. I just disagree with that as a blanket fact for Christians. My point is that if this murderer is a Christian and they confess and repent, at the very least a truely Christian approach is not "real world" justice. This way of thinking is why men can not forgive wives that stray. This is why abused people have no foundation for healing, as their church as a whole shows or teaches no forgiveness for the abuser, while loading the abused alone with the task that it might help to try to forgive the abuser. Teaching that Christ's forgiveness is without punishment, but that the proper Christian approach is to include punishment is not consistent. This does not mean that prisons should be empty as true repentance and change is easy to say but not always truthful. Christians should have an advantage as Barnabas did in assessing true repentance and change. If a Christian with God's help determines that a brother or sister in Christ is a new creature in Christ and old thing are passed away, then Christians should not be supporting sending Christians to jail.
 
...then Christians should not be supporting sending Christians to jail.
Click to expand...


Just as an aside, it is worth noting that NOWHERE in the Torah is prison prescribed as either punishment or a valid means of correction for what God prohibits!

The use of prison is a Roman (or pagan) concept in the Bible. God's people were imprisoned (almost invariably UNjustly!) and were even sprung from that evil place BY Him.

The Biblical prescription for "crime" is always restitution, repentance, and ultimately -- if possible -- reconciliation. Where that is not possible, to put someone "out of the camp" (which was often understood to be a practical death sentence) was mandated.

I find it ironic in the extreme that we live in a Bible-rejecting land that claims to abhor "slavery" and yet glorifies everything associated with slavery and forced labor not only behind bars, but in service to a false master in the form of debt and unjust "money".

According to the Word, a man guilty of a crime for which he could not make restitution was expected to enter the service of the one he wronged for a period of time. In this way, the "criminal" was taught how to live as a free man, while he made good for what he stole or did. In start contrast, our fetid society calls Biblical bond service "slavery", while further punishing the victims of theft and other acts by claiming it is the almighty "State" that has been wronged!** All the while, the REAL slaves fester behind bars, wards of that State, yet supported by taxes on the real victims. And what does the world's twisted "justice" teach? Often, how be a better criminal.


Most modern corporate 'church christians' have NO IDEA how far they have moved from both Biblical practice, AND Biblical understanding of law and justice.



------------------------
** Note that it is ALWAYS "State vs. AccusedHeretic" or "the People vs." somebody rather than Alleged Victim vs. Assailant.
 
All I was doing was saying that Christians are still responsible for the consequences of their actions whether they are forgiven or not.

SweetLissa
 
I agree with welltan. Mark as usual brings us back to the Word on all topics!!! I am one who is still suffering consequences(some "legal" as regards children) of what I did when I was not a christian so I also understand Lissa'a point but do those consequences mean we support a yukky "justice system"? Great stuff Mark.
 
I never said anything about supporting a yucky justice system. I simply stated that the man who was in debt needed to pay it back instead of asking God to get him out of it again. I was using the murder as an example. It was a bad example. But I never said we should support a bad justice system. But I don't believe that it is okay to promise to pay someone back what I owe them and then expect someone else to bail me out of it.

SweetLissa
 
Lissa,

Yes, I was speaking totally off topic! About the debt thing: Of course your point was logical. It makes even more sense since the premise of the story is that the man was already a christian at the time that he incurred the debt.
 
Everyone here has good points and I appreciate the dialogue. I believe that we are bringing up more good topics than I expected from the thread. I agree with everyone. When all the points are taken together in the context of God's Word, we see that they are all valid in different circumstances. Weltan makes a beautiful point about forgiveness. Jesus said 'go and sin no more'. As Mark also points out, if one repents and sins no more, then they should be forgiven and restored, (over time in most cases, so they learn from their mistakes, as the truck driver in the piece obviously did not). I think that this is part of Lissa’s point. When people are bailed out without any suffering, they often fail to learn their lesson and go off and make the same or similar mistakes, (John 5:14). Even though David repented, he still suffered from the error of his ways with Bathsheba. The current legal system in the USA does make people suffer more than they should for their mistakes, but through it some learn their lesson and repent. I know that I have suffered for many things that I did before God got a hold of me and still do. However, I am now trying to get things set right as best as I can, but some things I have left to God to sort out. Each case must be viewed through the eyes of Jesus and let God deal with it accordingly. However the Word tells us that we need to be able to judge each other by God’s Word and will. The Bible also teaches us to pay our debts, though we can never pay the debt of love.

You are all correct in your own view. Well said everyone. Thank you all.
:D

Be blessed,

Ray
 
DrRay777 said:
welltan said:
Someone who gets money out of a fish's mouth doesn't have a problem with miracles and faith involving money. The people who have problems with this scripture are either those that refuse to fish or those that rejoice over the coin and then ask God for another coin so that they can buy a fish to eat.

Matthew 17:27 (King James Version)

Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are saying here. Please explain. I must be missing the point.

Thanks.

Be blessed,

Ray
Click to expand...

Ray ....What I was trying to say was that there is nothing wrong with asking God for a monetary miracle. The reference to the money in a fish's mouth was a miracle. And the disciples still had to go fishing to find the fish. And we often ask God for what we already have, which would happen if they were hungry and did not eat the fish that had the money in it's mouth and rather just asked for more money to buy food.

Lissa ....you are a soft-hearted and forgiving person. The topic was elsewhere.
 
As long as you don't say I am soft in the head, I will accept that. Hey, what about Sept 12. Are you gonna make it to Dallas? Trying to figure out whether to find a park and do barbeque (hint hint) or find a restaurant. Any Ideas?

SweetLissa
 
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