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Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

PeteR said:
Same as I asked @Cap , who gave Moses the Torah?
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Just saying thats an assumption based upon a logical fallacy easily disproven once you look at the history of every other major covenant and era.

The same originator of a covenant does not prove identical terms of the covenants. It’s a no true Scotsman fallacy.
 
PeteR said:
Was Abraham perfect? Was he blessed? Was he 'saved?'

God is the same yesterday, today, forever. He isn't some vindictive being waiting to crush us over the smallest error. The whole sacrificial system was set up because He knew we would fail or falter from time to time. That system pointed to Yeshua, who offers forgiveness. What pisses God off is willful rebellion or disobedience. (In fact, read the Torah carefully and note there is no sacrihice for intentional sin. Unintentional sin was expected and allowed for in the system.)

Blessings can be partial, though curses in one area can affect another.

Consider this: Who gave Moses the Torah?
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First you say that God is not some vindicative being waiting to crush us. Then you say He gets pissed off when we disobey. I'm under the impression that sin is sin, intentional or otherwise. It's all sin to God.

God gave Moses the blue print of life. The prophets filled in the details. The Son of God came to show how to use it.
 
Cap said:
It did end and that one he did say, "it is finished". The new marriage we are in its not over it is progressing.
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That's an interesting theory, so there are three marriages? The old covenant, the new covenant and whatever halfway state we're in right now while we're waiting on the new covenant to be fully realized?
 
Cap said:
Wonder why it doesn't say obey?
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Maybe translation? That word translated into English as listen includes obedience...

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
  1. to hear, listen to, obey
    1. (Qal)
      1. to hear (perceive by ear)

      2. to hear of or concerning

      3. to hear (have power to hear)

      4. to hear with attention or interest, listen to

      5. to understand (language)

      6. to hear (of judicial cases)

      7. to listen, give heed
        1. to consent, agree

        2. to grant request
      8. to listen to, yield to

      9. to obey, be obedient
    2. (Niphal)
      1. to be heard (of voice or sound)

      2. to be heard of

      3. to be regarded, be obeyed
    3. (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon

    4. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound

      2. to sound aloud (musical term)

      3. to make proclamation, summon

      4. to cause to be heard

        n m
  2. sound
Usage by Word
heard (355), hear (262), listen (226), listened (52), obey (48), hears (32), obeyed (25), listening (13), proclaim(13), heed (11), listens (7), understand(7), obeying (6), proclaimed (6),
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
What does this mean to you @PeteR IRL?
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We have a better Mediator for the covenant who perfectly kept it and will never sin or die. But, this Same Mediator also said, 'I did NOT come to abolish the Law...not one letter will pass from the Law and the prophets until ALL is fulfilled.' He the proceeds to tell us how to be LEAST in the kingdom... nullify even the least of the commandments.

Simply, Yeshua is the One who spoke face to face with Moses. James calls Him the Lawgiver. A study of the Angel of the Lord passages as well as the Memra de Yeya occurances in the Targumim.

When He said, 'if you love me, you will keep my commandments, He wasn't bringing some new code. He was pointing to His commandments given at Sinai.
 
ZecAustin said:
That's an interesting theory, so there are three marriages? The old covenant, the new covenant and whatever halfway state we're in right now while we're waiting on the new covenant to be fully realized?
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Am really curious as to why you think we are still in the first marriage? Scripture is clear marriage ends at death. Could you expound
 
yoderfamily said:
Am really curious as to why you think we are still in the first marriage? Scripture is clear marriage ends at death. Could you expound
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I hear ya, good question.... it prompted a thought: why haven't we had the marriage supper of the Lamb?

My follow on thought: we are in the betrothal period. Will we be obedient and get ready as a bride, or will we be found out of oil when the Groom comes?

The challenge we have in wrapping out minds around this is we figure when Yeshua died, that the next covenant occurred immediately. Fact is, His death released us from the curse of divorce (Jeremiah 3, house of Israel divorced; Matthew 15:24, He came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and made a way for us to be rejoined, to return. Just because the way is open, doesn't mean the process and testing is complete. He, the Groom, prepares a place, we, the bride, make ourselves ready. Making ourselves ready means we learn the rules of the house, what makes the Head happy.

Just sort of rolling some thoughts, but makes sense in my mind. Hope I didn't put words in @ZecAustin 's mouth...
 
I agree His death released Israel from the divorce but scripture also clearly states that a testament is only valid after the testator dies. Immediately.
Some aspects of the testament might be set to go into effect at a later date.
I just can't get past that the old testator died. And while he reaffirmed His laws and statutes and judgements they are no longer a matter of Life and death. We now have a higher responsibility, directly to the Father with an advocate, the Son.

I believe if Jesus is the capstone or the cornerstone the rest of the building has to be there somewhere too. And I believe the Torah is the foundation of the building. I have no problem if someone wants to walk in the applicable Torah. But when it becomes religious or legalistic I believe it is profanity.
I would say we have the ability to walk and talk with The Father as Adam and Eve did in the garden. But only thru the covering of the Son. With Him as an advocate we can approach the Father and He will approach us..
 
yoderfamily said:
And while he reaffirmed His laws and statutes and judgements they are no longer a matter of Life and death.
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Okay, hypothetically, I believe in Yeshua, but intentionally and knowingly break/disobey 'His laws and statutes', am I saved? Or, am I demonstrating that I don't really have faith. Just lip service? If you were dating a lady, not yet married to her, and you laid out the standards by which you live and expect her to live, would you still marry her if she didn't do what you laid out? If she was rebellious?

Example: NINE times in Scripture, Shabbat is commanded. Nowhere ever is there a change of day. Scripture prophesies observance in the future. If I keep it am I being religious and legalistic ? Or, obedient? If I remind others of what the Scriptures do and don't say regarding Shabbat am I being legalistic? Or, loving?

I do agree that we can make the law the goal, but I want to be clear, obedience, to the best of our abilities and understanding as a demonstration of love and submission to the Father, is the goal. When we mess up, we have an Advocate... but, the Advocate's job is not to make excuses or cover willful disobedience.

Here's something I find incredibly amusing: Those who use Torah to defend poly while declaring other parts unimportant or irrelevant. Just. Does. Not. Compute.

It's a total package. We may learn and become aware of it incrementally, but as things are revealed or as we are challenged, it is incumbent to dig, pray and accept.

I just saw this video:

She talks of her struggles to take on poly, but her message perfectly fits our own wrestling with God's everlasting instructions. She tells my story regarding coming to Torah...

Brachot v'shabbat shalom!
 
ZecAustin said:
That's an interesting theory, so there are three marriages? The old covenant, the new covenant and whatever halfway state we're in right now while we're waiting on the new covenant to be fully realized?
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There is no third marriage. The first has not been done away with but fulfilled in the Son of God. He is the head, the master. All the Laws and commands to obey are within Him. He decides, through the Holy Spirit, a persons heart to determine obedience. Which is now in the second marriage, which is progressed day by day. And as @PeteR said, we are currently now in the betrothal period, where some will be Sarah and follow thier husband based on a life of freedom, 5 wise. Or be like Hagar, a slave, tied to old covenant Laws, 5 foolish.
 
Pacman said:
Maybe translation? That word translated into English as listen includes obedience...

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
  1. to hear, listen to, obey
    1. (Qal)
      1. to hear (perceive by ear)

      2. to hear of or concerning

      3. to hear (have power to hear)

      4. to hear with attention or interest, listen to

      5. to understand (language)

      6. to hear (of judicial cases)

      7. to listen, give heed
        1. to consent, agree

        2. to grant request
      8. to listen to, yield to

      9. to obey, be obedient
    2. (Niphal)
      1. to be heard (of voice or sound)

      2. to be heard of

      3. to be regarded, be obeyed
    3. (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon

    4. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound

      2. to sound aloud (musical term)

      3. to make proclamation, summon

      4. to cause to be heard

        n m
  2. sound
Usage by Word
heard (355), hear (262), listen (226), listened (52), obey (48), hears (32), obeyed (25), listening (13), proclaim(13), heed (11), listens (7), understand(7), obeying (6), proclaimed (6),
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Thanks for that. I do see that listen could include obey.
 
PeteR said:
Making ourselves ready means we learn the rules of the house, what makes the Head happy.
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I don't think that is correct. I am not here to learn the rules of the house, I am here to learn the heart of my Savior. And by His guidance learn what I am to do today, not do what was done in some ancient interpretation of a contract that has been made new.

Mary and Martha are good examples.
 
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@Cap

And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments. So shall I keep thy law (Torah) continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psalms 119:43‭-‬45 KJV

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 1:25 KJV

Shalom.
 
yoderfamily said:
Am really curious as to why you think we are still in the first marriage? Scripture is clear marriage ends at death. Could you expound
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I don't believe we're in a marriage yet at all. That won't come until Jesus comes for His bride to carry her to the marriage supper. That's when all the marriagey stuff happens. Right now we're supposed to be wise virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Because we're not married yet.
 
PeteR said:
@Cap

And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments. So shall I keep thy law (Torah) continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psalms 119:43‭-‬45 KJV

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 1:25 KJV

Shalom.
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I know you put out verses that preach an observance of Law, but who determines if any particular law is observed correctly?
 
ZecAustin said:
I don't believe we're in a marriage yet at all. That won't come until Jesus comes for His bride to carry her to the marriage supper. That's when all the marriagey stuff happens. Right now we're supposed to be wise virgins waiting for the bridegroom. Because we're not married yet.
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Would you say we are betrothed?
 
Cap said:
I know you put out verses that preach an observance of Law, but who determines if any particular law is observed correctly?
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So, fear of incorrect observance is excuse not to try?

C'mon. Bring a real argument, man.
 
Cap said:
There is no third marriage. The first has not been done away with but fulfilled in the Son of God. He is the head, the master. All the Laws and commands to obey are within Him. He decides, through the Holy Spirit, a persons heart to determine obedience. Which is now in the second marriage, which is progressed day by day. And as @PeteR said, we are currently now in the betrothal period, where some will be Sarah and follow thier husband based on a life of freedom, 5 wise. Or be like Hagar, a slave, tied to old covenant Laws, 5 foolish.
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So we're not married yet so we're not under the new covenant but we're not under the old either? There is no need to continue this loopey dee loop. But I hope you'll at least acknowledge that your thoughts are not fully formed on this.
 
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