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Marrying Foreign Women (Ezra)

BiblicalLiteralist

BiblicalLiteralist

Member
Read through Ezra last night, and was reminded of Israel putting away their foreign wives (theres also some good calendar/moedim references in there too). For those of you who consider yourselves Israel, what are your thoughts regarding non grafted in women? What defines a foreign wife in the diaspora? How does one discern? Hoping to hear from you @PeteR on this one.
 
RemnantResilience said:
Read through Ezra last night, and was reminded of Israel putting away their foreign wives (theres also some good calendar/moedim references in there too). For those of you who consider yourselves Israel, what are your thoughts regarding non grafted in women? What defines a foreign wife in the diaspora? How does one discern? Hoping to hear from you @PeteR on this one.
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The situation in Ezra is a complex one. I’d be careful drawing too many hard conclusions from it alone.
 
RemnantResilience said:
Read through Ezra last night, and was reminded of Israel putting away their foreign wives (theres also some good calendar/moedim references in there too). For those of you who consider yourselves Israel, what are your thoughts regarding non grafted in women? What defines a foreign wife in the diaspora? How does one discern? Hoping to hear from you @PeteR on this one.
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The Israelite men who had taken foreign wives were to do the will of God and separate themselves from those pagan wives (Ezra 10:11). Those women were not Israelites, that was the issue. Christians are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14). What nation those Christian men and women come from is not the issue; it's their salvation or lack thereof which is important. God is saving people from every nation, tribe, tongue, and people, and believers' are free to marry other believers. Shalom
 
RemnantResilience said:
Read through Ezra last night, and was reminded of Israel putting away their foreign wives (theres also some good calendar/moedim references in there too). For those of you who consider yourselves Israel, what are your thoughts regarding non grafted in women? What defines a foreign wife in the diaspora? How does one discern? Hoping to hear from you @PeteR on this one.
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A much more detailed discussion and assessment is needed.

I agree with @The Revolting Man

The Revolting Man said:
The situation in Ezra is a complex one. I’d be careful drawing too many hard conclusions from it alone.
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Starting from the command of YAH

Deuteronomy 7:1-6 NASB95 — “When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. “Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons. “For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you. “But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Read also Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 7

Now juxtapose this passage of scripture

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NASB95 — “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. “She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. “It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

We know that YAH God is not the author of confusion, indeed he is very clear, and maybe something has been missed by using a broad sweep statement as "foreign women".

frederick said:
Those women were not Israelites, that was the issue.
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Are you 100% sure that was the issue ?

What say you about Moses ?

What about Joseph from whom come Manasseh and Ephraim ?

There are more examples but I will leave it there.

frederick said:
Christians are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14). What nation those Christian men and women come from is not the issue; it's their salvation or lack thereof which is important.
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Cannot say that I entirely agree with your use of that scripture. This can go a lot deeper as a discussion regarding foreign wives when digging into the writings of the apostles, but I will leave it there.
 
frederick said:
The Israelite men who had taken foreign wives were to do the will of God and separate themselves from those pagan wives (Ezra 10:11).
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Technically they weren't to join with them to begin with. We see other examples of this elsewhere in scripture as well as the commands pointed out by @JudahYAHites above, and as @JudahYAHites pointed out above we don't see all non Israel wives as being considered foreign.

This is the reason for the question, is it only the women who are of those people Yah forbade the Israelite's from intermarriage with? Is it a matter of heart or a matter of genealogy? Or both?

Referencing Ezra 4:2 we see the claim made by those called adversaries of Judah and Benjamin,“Let us build with you, for we seek your God as you do; and we have sacrificed to Him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assyria, who brought us here.” Then once denied that request we see their fruits. They may have been worshipping other gods as well or outright lying based on their response to the request denial, however we are not given any more details.

Would it be safe to assume that the wives considered foreign which the Israelites took were worshipping their own god's and not Yah. Is this an example of the justification for putting away that Messiah spoke of in Matthew 19? Or was it simply on a genealogy reason?
 
People not born as an Israelite could be grafted in by joining the (to put it simply) religion of the Israelites. They would become of one of the tribes of Israel even if they were born of a different nation.

In a similar manner, today in the new (better) covenant there is neither bond nor free, Jew (Israelite) or Greek (gentile). We are all one in Christ, those of us who believe and follow Him.
 
JudahYAHites said:
“Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons. “For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods
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The reason intermarriage was forbidden was clearly stated. Now days we can only guess at who are descendants of these forbidden lineages. The best policy is to judge by fruits. If someone is seeking YHWH's will in their life and choices, then I don't see any reason to worry. Being equally yolked goes deeper then just professing faith. For us it is the kind of harmony in thinking and values that creates a cohesive family. We are all going the same way, and my sisterwife felt that compatability from early on. She was more at home around our family then her own.
I know people who make it about color, or race, but it is more about hearts and values....who they choose to serve.
 
RemnantResilience said:
Would it be safe to assume that the wives considered foreign which the Israelites took were worshipping their own god's and not Yah. Is this an example of the justification for putting away that Messiah spoke of in Matthew 19? Or was it simply on a genealogy reason?
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It is unknown who those wives worshipped, but in Ezra the problem was the genealogy, the mixing of the set apart seed of Israel with the nations they were forbidden to intermarry with. They knew who they were, who those nations were, and obedience required repentance.
 
The Israelites were specifically prohibited from intermarriage with people from the accursed seven specific Canaanite nations listed in Deut. 7.

Marriage with other foreigners isn't prohibited the same way.

As I recall the Hebrew word for "foreign women" literally translates as something like "daughter of a foreign god", indicating that religion was the primary issue.

Ruth and Rahab were both foreign women who married Israelites. Rahab was even apparently a Canaanite (being from Jericho).

Importantly, Rahab and Ruth were truly and radically converted prior to marriage. They had ceased being "daughters of a foreign god", and by faith become part of God's people Their marriages seem to have been blessed by God.
 
frederick said:
The Israelite men who had taken foreign wives were to do the will of God and separate themselves from those pagan wives (Ezra 10:11). Those women were not Israelites, that was the issue. Christians are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14). What nation those Christian men and women come from is not the issue; it's their salvation or lack thereof which is important. God is saving people from every nation, tribe, tongue, and people, and believers' are free to marry other believers. Shalom
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2 Cor 6 is NOT about marriage but rather about EQUALITY in business and church operations. Feminist Christians will pummel us with equality dogma using this verse. Marriage is already described and defined in other passages. Obvious question is "How can man/women be equal when man is the head?" Answer: They aren't. Don't stretch analogies to their illogical conclusion.
ps. neither of my wives were equal to me in donning the yoke and pulling the plough of life. When they tried they got hurt. Gentlemen, don't do that to her. -M
 
Maddog said:
2 Cor 6 is NOT about marriage
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It isn't only, or primarily about marriage, but the general principle also applies to marriage.

Regarding the larger topic, 1st Corinthians 7 should also be considered. While one should not choose to marry an unbeliever, the believer also generally shouldn't divorce an unbelieving spouse.
 
Nice feminist position however men and women are never equal so the "principle" does not apply.
 
Maddog said:
Nice feminist position however men and women are never equal so the "principle" does not apply.
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I think you are being silly Maddog.

Here is the passage in question.

"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?' (2 Cor. 6:14-15 NASB)

Do you really think husband and wife do not share a life and home in common? It is you that stretches the "yoking" analogy too far.

Husband and wife (or wives) work together building a family. Their natures, roles, and responsibilities differ, but they still work together in service to the Kingdom of Christ.
 
frederick said:
The Israelite men who had taken foreign wives were to do the will of God and separate themselves from those pagan wives (Ezra 10:11). Those women were not Israelites, that was the issue. Christians are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14). What nation those Christian men and women come from is not the issue; it's their salvation or lack thereof which is important. God is saving people from every nation, tribe, tongue, and people, and believers' are free to marry other believers. Shalom
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Your use of the word 'pagan' is the dispositive precept: in Ezra and in prior passages referring to prohibitions about 'foreign women,' it is clear this isn't referring to women from other countries (or even to non-Israelites). The 'foreign women' in question were also pagans, so they believed in and worshipped multiple gods rather than the One True God. Even Solomon was condemned for doing this and was not condemned for anything related to his polygyny other than (a) his excessiveness of the practice, and (b) his tendency toward the end to marry pagan women who then influenced him in this regard.
 
I'm happily married to a believing woman from another nation (married 24 years now). She is Japanese and I am an American (of largely English and German ancestry). We have never been "foreigners" since we were both believing Christians when we met.
 
Maddog said:
Obvious question is "How can man/women be equal when man is the head?" Answer: They aren't. Don't stretch analogies to their illogical conclusion.
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Please be more specific. Equal in or not equal in what? Salvation, body, roles?
 
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