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Meat Permitted or perhaps an imperative?

NickF

NickF

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Do you consider PM an imperative?

My personal journey of understanding biblical marriage/polygny has been:
1. Culture calls it wrong so it's wrong (youth)
2. But the bible lists numerous men held in high esteem as having multiple wives (teen years)
3. So it must at least be tolerated if it's still wrong, nobody is perfect. (teen years)
4. Wait a second, God said he would give David more wives, can't be sinful or just tolerated (adult 20 years ago)
5. Time to study, looks like it's not condemned and actually common (adult 10 years ago)
6. Ok, God is totally cool with it and probably encourages multiple wives. (adult recent)
7. Wait, look at the culture and women uncovered and being destroyed or wasted... Is this actually now an imperative? Is this a "should do, or must do" rather than a "permitted" classification? Like standing on a shoreline watching people drowning or in danger and not doing anything despite being able to intervene... Are we in a position where plural marriage is actually necessary and an imperative in this day and age? Should we be feeling like this is beyond permitted, but needful and urgent? Exhortation to single women in the church to marry. There shouldn't be single women of marriageable age in church?

I know I can do this, I'm gifted to do this. It is presumably needful, my reasons for hesitation are all centered around selfishness and resistance to difficulty, trials, and social stigma. Guess this is just a simple "man up" and obey.

I'm resistant to the personal cost of walking in this, and I don't want to hurt my wife, or suffer the social fallout, but the more I read and learn about God's expectations, and the way this lifestyle models His relationship to us... The more it seems like despite the pain and trouble this would bring, that it is actually needful, not only for the single women floundering, but for my own walk with God, and that of my wife as well. What say you BibFam?
 
Just my take: I see nothing in Scripture other than the Levirate Law that asserts that polygyny is an imperative for any given individual. On the other hand, for every woman to be covered, it's definitely necessary for some men to be willing to be the man for more than one woman, which, logically speaking, means that polygyny is a clear imperative for every culture writ large.

This, however, doesn't seem to be a real issue, because it's quite apparent that the number of men willing to be plural husbands outstrips the number of women willing to submit to it. The problem is simply not the availability of willing, capable men. The problem is the shortage of women who would rather die alone and (in most cases) in poverty than become second wives and the plethora of first wives who will do everything in their power to prevent having to share their man. Therefore, outside of physical coercion, this is a matter for which we are going to have to wait for women in general to have a very serious change of heart.
 
I only see two imperatives:
One, that women be under headship. (Being under a pastor or Yeshua or his Dad doesn’t count)
Two, that men accept that multiple wives is part of Yah’s plan in some cases and prepare themselves and their families for that possibility.
 
Regarding "single" women; they might not all be quite as single as they appear at first glance. My expectation is that in the sight of God, there are /very/ few single women, and a whole lot of abandoned wives. I would recommend reading Exo 22:16-17 and ponder on the ramifications of what God said concerning who she's supposed to be the wife of. You can see in the next link that not everyone agrees with me on this point. You have to do your due diligence and make up your own mind, knowing Who you will eventually have to answer to.

There is much discussion here, with various viewpoints represented.
 
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eye4them said:
Regarding "single" women; they might not all be quite as single as they appear at first glance. My expectation is that in the sight of God, there are /very/ few single women, and a whole lot of abandoned wives. I would recommend reading Exo 22:16-17 and ponder on the ramifications of what God said concerning who she's supposed to be the wife of. You can see in the next link that not everyone agrees with me on this point. You have to do your due diligence and make up your own mind, knowing Who you will eventually have to answer to.

There is much discussion here, with various viewpoints represented.
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Yeah, and a discussion of when marriage begins belongs over there, but I'll throw this into this particular discussion: when I made a firm decision back in the Oughts to pursue polygyny, the first thing I did was contact every woman I could track down with whom I'd been intimate and offered each of them an opportunity to join our family. I also went to some great lengths to make amends as much as possible with the extended families of these women. I considered that to be a personal imperative based on my reading of Scripture.
 
That's very commendable Keith, I'm glad to hear it. :)

As for that discussion that belongs in that thread, I've said my piece, so the matter should not go further in this thread on my account.
 
eye4them said:
Regarding "single" women; they might not all be quite as single as they appear at first glance. My expectation is that in the sight of God, there are /very/ few single women, and a whole lot of abandoned wives. I would recommend reading Exo 22:16-17 and ponder on the ramifications of what God said concerning who she's supposed to be the wife of.
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I definitely agree on this point... Very few
 
I’m not interested in refighting that battle.
I’m just here to state that there are many of us that believe that there are widows who were married to guys that are still alive. These women also need headship.
 
Thanks for not sidetracking into that whole can o worms gents!
 
Well just to inject some random facts into this thread, I read recently that in the 1870s as a result of the bloody war with Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, the male population of Paraguay was decimated by like 90%. As a result the women forced the Paraguayan government to institute polygyny as law. A man by law could have no less than 3 wives. It must have worked because today the M:F ratio is not really lopsided.

So to echo what others have said, maybe the women have to come to a place where they want biblical headship so badly that they will beg for polygyny? Isaiah 4:1 comes to mind.

Other than those thoughts, I don't see any biblical imperative to marry more than one wife or to marry at all other than those in Genesis and Paul's instruction to marry rather than burn with passion for a particular individual.
 
NickF said:
I'm resistant to the personal cost of walking in this, and I don't want to hurt my wife, or suffer the social fallout, but the more I read and learn about God's expectations, and the way this lifestyle models His relationship to us... The more it seems like despite the pain and trouble this would bring, that it is actually needful, not only for the single women floundering, but for my own walk with God, and that of my wife as well. What say you BibFam?
Click to expand...

Nothing will change in regards to this until some people take the heat, so to say. What really made the gay rights movement so influential and fueled its growth was their history steeped in persecution. Sometimes, the only way to be a true believer is to endure some type of persecution, albeit even if that is simply a social stigma. It seems the witness is very powerful in ones own personal circle when you 'come out' - which is something I can attest too. It is certainly socially perilous though, and that perilous fact is some hard evidence that it is a meaningful and needed issue to address - that its a concern in the spiritual realms. The places where the Love of God meets the opposition of the world, are powerful, imo.

We also need more believers talking about this because in the secular culture they are fully embracing polyamory and doing it in their own ways (unbiblical), so examples and testimonials are needed. The 'Red Pill' and 'Blue Pill' dichotomy hit on many of these issues, but are ultimately both poisonous pills because they don't approach the subject scripturally.

NickF said:
Do you consider PM an imperative?
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Final Answer: Yes - its an imperative option for us, as a species, to function to our full potential in Love. If its hidden or not allowed to be, we have hidden and disallowed something good.

Keith Martin said:
The problem is the shortage of women who would rather die alone and (in most cases) in poverty than become second wives and the plethora of first wives who will do everything in their power to prevent having to share their man.
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Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Women just aren't into it, even though its simply the most loving thing to do for a mature man to offer family and security and headship to one and hopefully more women. The only thing that makes sense is that it is simply an unloving world we live in - unable to see through the blinders of jealousy and the need to control or manipulate the authorities in our lives in an attempt to have our needs met.

Can you imagine a world where one of the formal churches insisted that it was the only legitimate church and God couldn't have or make another church without its explicit permission....wait....

I for one have no intent to tell Yeshua whom he can or cannot save, and all intent to help him save as many as he wants - now that I am of His household, I'll go about supporting his work, which is to seek and to save. The full metaphor of marriage fits perfectly as a witness, whether it's offensive to the 'chaff' of the world or not.
 
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Let me clarify, I'm not saying it is a "biblically ordered" imperative. But imperative in the sense of extremely needful. Whether or not "most women" are down with it, or if the culture writ large is cool with the idea. The need is there. There are fields to be plowed and crops to raise. If you're working one field and next door is a vacant abandoned lot, shouldn't you be out there working that land as well rather than sitting at home watching your own crops grow?

I'm looking at what is happening with the female culture of basically whoring until 30 or so and then looking to "settle down". Shouldn't men be stepping up and saying "stop this madness", come join me instead. Or reaching out to young women before they go down that path and offering themselves as vetted, stable, honorable providers who will do the job right. It seems like young women these days have few options, grab hold of a good 17-19 year old young man and hang onto him, or play the field hoping to find one until they're played out and numb to whoring.

I would be horrified at the prospects if I had daughters. Heck, if I had daughters I'd be on the lookout for a good man with a poly accepting wife and arranging a good match ahead of time rather than the kind of boys I'm seeing running around. Granted there are a few good ones but they get snatched up real quick.

What I'm trying to communicate is that while it's blessed by God and not mandated, due to circumstances in the world, I'm coming more and more under the conviction that to avoid this would be sinfully negligent. I feel intensely convicted that I would be doing wrong if I ran away from this and it's extremely uncomfortable.
 
NickF said:
I'm looking at what is happening with the female culture of basically whoring until 30 or so and then looking to "settle down". Shouldn't men be stepping up and saying "stop this madness", come join me instead. Or reaching out to young women before they go down that path and offering themselves as vetted, stable, honorable providers who will do the job right. It seems like young women these days have few options, grab hold of a good 17-19 year old young man and hang onto him, or play the field hoping to find one until they're played out and numb to whoring.
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I wish i could listen to it but the guy says nothing and then repeats the same sentences for 10 minutes. It’s kind of like listening to a politician not answer a yes or no question.

Can you encapsulate what you’re wanting to communicate Keith? I have way too much on my plate than time to listen to that dude repeat himself for a hour.

Not trying to be snarky, really want to know what you’re trying to convey but too busy to try and sift a nugget from the word salad.
 
SonoLumen said:
Nothing will change in regards to this until some people take the heat, so to say. What really made the gay rights movement so influential and fueled its growth was their history steeped in persecution. Sometimes, the only way to be a true believer is to endure some type of persecution, albeit even if that is simply a social stigma. It seems the witness is very powerful in ones own personal circle when you 'come out' - which is something I can attest too. It is certainly socially perilous though, and that perilous fact is some hard evidence that it is a meaningful and needed issue to address - that its a concern in the spiritual realms. The places where the Love of God meets the opposition of the world, are powerful, imo.

We also need more believers talking about this because in the secular culture they are fully embracing polyamory and doing it in their own ways (unbiblical), so examples and testimonials are needed. The 'Red Pill' and 'Blue Pill' dichotomy hit on many of these issues, but are ultimately both poisonous pills because they don't approach the subject scripturally.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely correct. I shouldn't be shrinking away from something God calls good. I'm working through this and making sure I'm not throwing myself into the line of fire without knowing full well that this is actually something worth fighting for. The consequences are dire and I must be 100% positive it's something I should fight for.

I will absolutely stand for what God calls right and good. Isaiah 5:20.

I'm unafraid to boldly seek truth and proclaim it. I have my real face as my profile photo and my professional email address on here haha. One person already recognized me surprisingly, but now I can't find the post where he mentioned it. Must've deleted his post.

My point is I'm trying to be honorable, and courageous while proceeding slowly and with caution.
 
NickF said:
You're absolutely correct. I shouldn't be shrinking away from something God calls good. I'm working through this and making sure I'm not throwing myself into the line of fire without knowing full well that this is actually something worth fighting for. The consequences are dire and I must be 100% positive it's something I should fight for.

I will absolutely stand for what God calls right and good. Isaiah 5:20.

I'm unafraid to boldly seek truth and proclaim it. I have my real face as my profile photo and my professional email address on here haha. One person already recognized me surprisingly, but now I can't find the post where he mentioned it. Must've deleted his post.

My point is I'm trying to be honorable, and courageous while proceeding slowly and with caution.
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In what sense are you envisioning your involvement with polygyny that you are describing with exposing yourself to personal or professional risk? Do you have a particular woman in mind or do you see this as a 'mission field' of sorts and are you saying you feel called to pursue single women in general and propose this as a type of evangelism? I guess I am curious where you are coming from.

Keith can speak for himself, as he does at length ;), but from what I watched of the video, he seems to be pointing to the promiscuous behavior of single women contributing to their extended singleness and reducing their marriageability since most men desire either virgins or women with few sexual partners.
 
NickF said:
Can you encapsulate what you’re wanting to communicate
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Yes:
  1. Men are insane these days if they think they can find any women over the age of 18 who haven't already had dozens of partners; and
  2. Women are insane these days if they think men want to marry women who have been whoring around for 5 or 10 or 20 years.
 
I had meant to suggest starting about a half hour into it. For the uninitiated, especially when first starting to watch Kevin Samuels' videos, you probably want to skip the 15 minutes of dead air and the 5-10 minutes at the beginning of talking about candles and fragrances!

The transition from Ho to Housewife is something that only a very rare female can successfully accomplish, and Mr. Samuels is pounding this message into the black community: Generation X is lost, so it's time for mothers and fathers to start raising their daughters to be prepared to be good wives.

NickF said:
Not trying to be snarky, really want to know what you’re trying to convey but too busy to try and sift a nugget from the word salad.
Click to expand...

It's not word salad; it's Samuels speaking to his audience, but I've watched a lot of different podcasts on masculinity and male/female relationships -- and what I've learned from watching Kevin Samuels' has been more tangibly inspiring in a life-changing way than any of the others. His messages are targeted to a black audience, but they apply to a white audience far more than even he seems to realize. I suggest beginning with one that has the title "You're Average at Best:"


Samuels has specifically promoted polygyny but only did so briefly; recently he's shifted to focusing on the reality that high-value black men have the option of multiple sexual partners, but I suspect this is a temporary strategy that is part of getting black women to realize that they're all going to die alone and in poverty if they don't get realistic about what is truly available for them in regard to relationships.
 
NickF said:
Can you encapsulate what you’re wanting to communicate Keith?
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The Revolting Man said:
Lol, no. No he can’t.
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I appreciate you two and Farmer Moses starting my day off with a good belly laugh.

@NickF, as active as you've already become, I should give you the warning you may not have come across in previous posts of mine: generally speaking, I'm not going to be succinct. I'm not a talking points kind of guy, so this is the warning: if my posts are too long, just realize that they weren't written for you. I suspect Kevin Samuels would say the same thing. We're both playing a different game.

The true diversity among us here as brothers is what I find to be the most enriching thing about this web site. Mine is just one approach to tackling ideas and events, and I recognize that it's not for everyone. It's always entirely acceptable to entirely ignore me, but if you do you might just not know what you're misising!
 
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