Hannah1958NH
New Member
ok , so I am curious as to if people here are attending physical churches. If you do ,do you share in similiar belief about God yet keep quiet about the Polygny?
Hannah
Hannah
-
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- Thread starter Hannah1958NH
- Start date
T-C's Rebeka
Member
Many have a home church and either keep quiet about PM (not denying it though), some have spoken with the pastor/elders of a church. Some have home fellowships, especially those that are practicing PM.
We left one fellowship due to their definition of marriage including the approval of the government. We are now attending a Lutheran church and do not have issues because it is the churches stance that marriage is through G-d via church and the government has no right to control over it, but we are not practicing currently. Given how prevalent polygyny (non-religious) is in our community though, we do not think it will be an issue finding a local church that will "keep us" when we receive another wife.
We left one fellowship due to their definition of marriage including the approval of the government. We are now attending a Lutheran church and do not have issues because it is the churches stance that marriage is through G-d via church and the government has no right to control over it, but we are not practicing currently. Given how prevalent polygyny (non-religious) is in our community though, we do not think it will be an issue finding a local church that will "keep us" when we receive another wife.
ChapmansOfNH
New Member
Hi Hannah,
We do not attend a church and haven't for a few years now. We can't seem to find one that relies on God's truths and not man's truth. It's not just the truth about polygyny either, there are many issues we find with what many churches are preaching. There are times I miss it though.........
AnneMarie
We do not attend a church and haven't for a few years now. We can't seem to find one that relies on God's truths and not man's truth. It's not just the truth about polygyny either, there are many issues we find with what many churches are preaching. There are times I miss it though.........
AnneMarie
macike
New Member
ChapmansOfNH said:
I would agree. I have not gone for about 4 years and the sad part is there is little (if anything) I miss about Church. I live in the upper midwest and most of the churches are cookie cutters of each other.
What I miss is the larger community. I have had it twice. One I will never ever go back, the leader has some serious character flaws. The other is just to far. For whatever reason G-d moved us out here to SD.
My wife and I attend a Seventh-day Adventist church.
I play on the worship team, and take part in healing ministry. I am acknowledged as an ordained elder by the pastor, as I was before being disfellowshipped over PM by another SDA church on the other side of the country.
My wife holds official membership in the denomination as of this writing. I don't. The pastor, as well as the head elder and his wife know of our beliefs and seem accepting. The pastor, at least, has visited this site. Don't know if he signed on as a member or not. The elder is aware of it, but I don't know if he and/or his wife have visited.
As I see it, Jesus prayed that we'd be UNITED. Nothing was said about being UNANIMOUS. So we worship with a group that comes the CLOSEST to sharing our overall theology and worship style, but keep our devotion centered on God, not the group.
That others do differently is just fine. Makes for great discussions at retreats!
I play on the worship team, and take part in healing ministry. I am acknowledged as an ordained elder by the pastor, as I was before being disfellowshipped over PM by another SDA church on the other side of the country.
My wife holds official membership in the denomination as of this writing. I don't. The pastor, as well as the head elder and his wife know of our beliefs and seem accepting. The pastor, at least, has visited this site. Don't know if he signed on as a member or not. The elder is aware of it, but I don't know if he and/or his wife have visited.
As I see it, Jesus prayed that we'd be UNITED. Nothing was said about being UNANIMOUS. So we worship with a group that comes the CLOSEST to sharing our overall theology and worship style, but keep our devotion centered on God, not the group.
That others do differently is just fine. Makes for great discussions at retreats!
HI Hannah,
I find that my differences with the "church" are so vast that I no longer attend.
It first happened with dispensational beliefs. I was attending a mildly pentecostal church,
I loved the pastor, the congregation, the fellowship. But as I learned more, I began
to find it harder and harder to keep my mouth shut. THEN I came to the truth of plural marriage, and just stopped going all together. Funny thing is, I can explain poly to some friends and they are mature enough to understand. But a whole church full of "believers"
is too daunting for me. I had one meeting with the pastor, just to discuss dispensational differences and he was appalled. So I just let everything go.
I do find that I miss the warmth of the fellowship there, but I know that if I really let it all out, it would be too difficult for them to still accept me.
I hope this answer is helpful to you.
Julie
I find that my differences with the "church" are so vast that I no longer attend.
It first happened with dispensational beliefs. I was attending a mildly pentecostal church,
I loved the pastor, the congregation, the fellowship. But as I learned more, I began
to find it harder and harder to keep my mouth shut. THEN I came to the truth of plural marriage, and just stopped going all together. Funny thing is, I can explain poly to some friends and they are mature enough to understand. But a whole church full of "believers"
is too daunting for me. I had one meeting with the pastor, just to discuss dispensational differences and he was appalled. So I just let everything go.
I do find that I miss the warmth of the fellowship there, but I know that if I really let it all out, it would be too difficult for them to still accept me.
I hope this answer is helpful to you.
Julie
I am asking myself alot of the same questions, I lead worship at our contemperary church, and if they find out I believe in plural marriage they will give me the worst time. So, my plan is the following. I am going to start a home fellowship for plural families in my house, and still go to my church. I am single so I don't have to worry right now about it. It is hard though becuase when other single women in our church approach me to consider dating me, I have to be carefull when I share my plural views, becuase my church will be really hard on me, and prob kick me out over the issue, and I have been a part from the start of the fellowship. So, its a tough question, plus in texas they police are really aggressive when it comes to plural. Blessings, Kenneth
I share my views in some places but not others
I shared my view in the church I mainly go to and just consider it a matter of time, before I will have to leave, however that might be several years......
On the other hand, in some other Churches I keep silent, (I do not lie), I just do not bring up the topic.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mathew 5:11-12 NIV
I am going to read the entire Bible again for what will be at least the fourth time, after this I will write an essay and post it publicly explaining and defending my position openly and in more detail. After this point I will not hide my beliefs.
I want to be able to show that it is scriptural with a great deal of certainty, before I share my beliefs to a larger number of people.
I shared my view in the church I mainly go to and just consider it a matter of time, before I will have to leave, however that might be several years......
On the other hand, in some other Churches I keep silent, (I do not lie), I just do not bring up the topic.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mathew 5:11-12 NIV
I am going to read the entire Bible again for what will be at least the fourth time, after this I will write an essay and post it publicly explaining and defending my position openly and in more detail. After this point I will not hide my beliefs.
I want to be able to show that it is scriptural with a great deal of certainty, before I share my beliefs to a larger number of people.
Ah.....what a lovely topic, the Lord's blessed assemblies, I love to contemplate the greatest treasure, other than Christ himself, to the earth. The churches of the Lord, members of his body, with stains and all, is still the beloved of the Lord and ought to be of our hearts as well. He loved his saints enough to die for them and thus we have a high standard to match, one of such height we if honest must admit we do not love the saints and sinners to the same depth as does our own beloved Lord.
Some people are bitter towards the churches due to the churches various sins and flaws, some of which are true and some of which are the flaws of the one doing the criticism, and some are rightfully opposed to some churches that are, as Apostle John said, synagogues of Satan.
Some have been kicked out churches for the right reasons and the wrong reasons. Some people have acted in disrespectful ways towards their leaders and thus were ousted or they chose to leave by using the cloud of covering of different doctrinal beliefs when in reality it was their own sin of disrespect, a character flaw, that led to them needing to leave. Others however have been respectful and the stewards or leaders over their souls acted in a wrong way by using their position in an abusive way over those entrusted to their care.
I have found that it largely depends upon the character or maturity of the leaders as well as the individual members as to whether or not co-existence can exist when dealing with not only this topic but any topic of such where sharp differences exist.
Believe it or not, and ask brother John Whitten if you desire another opinion on this, but the doctrine of marriage is NOT a fundamental, non-negotiable, all or nothing doctrine. There are numerous other doctrines that are more important than this one. In what many have now began to call the "Theological Triage," a term used to describe the major doctrinal issues versus the minor doctrinal issues (kinda of like a triage in an emergency room), marriage ranks clearly under the classical fundamental doctrines. Doctrines such as the Triune Godhead, the inspiration and infallible Bible, the supernatural creation of the entire universe, the full fall of mankind into sin whereby he is lost and on the way to peril without redemption, Christ's incarnation shown by his life substituionary death and resurrection for man's redemption, experiential salvation by grace alone through faith alone where people are placed into the body of Christ, and Christ's final and ultimate return to establish his kingdom and bring final judgment to the universe are all higher, more important, and absolutely vital to a true life in the faith.
The doctrine of marriage is not salvific and those who think and act as if it is show their own theological immaturity by placing a minor above a major (see Matthew 23:23 for Christ's word on that).
But wait a minute before throwing the stone this way. When I speak about marriage, or what I prefer to call a biblical union or maybe even a Christian coalescent relationship, I am speaking of the actual act or existence of the union. No pastor, denomination, or saint ought to elevate the type of heterosexual union (monogamous or polygynous) to the same rank as the doctrines above. Furthermore, one could even be celibate and still be walking in step with the Lord and his Spirit. A monogamous person could be walking in step with the Spirit just as much as a polygynous union. No person will die or go to hell or heaven by their celibate, monogamous, or polygynous status.
But here is where the problem arises. The immature often elevate this doctrine to that type of position and thus it leads to great conflict and schism. On our end, at least for the mature who see the larger theological portrait hanging in the archives of holy history, we think the doctrine of love, which is a key defining essence to the character of God, and a trait that Apostle Paul called the greatest trait (1 Cor. 13:13), ought to allow heterosexual love to stand and co-exist. No right minded biblicist would demand and place a requirement on any and all to be polygynous per se. Those who do or act in that way deserve to be booted from any church because they are the ones acting in an unloving way. I have met some who even if they were accepted in this belief would just use another belief and demand the leaders embrace that, and if not then that would be used as the screen or reason as to why they were justified to leave and depart from service in Christ's body. In such case the issue is not the doctrine but the rebellious heart of pride where one wants others to conform to him or her and if not then that one will depart. It is like the child saying if you can't play my way i'll take my toys and go home. Some have never grown out of that childhood status in regard to character maturity.
But for the biblicist he or she recognizes that love is a fundamental that stands behind, underneath, and through the cardinal doctrines of the Bible. Thus, if a church or leader will not allow or accept a polygynous person then that leader or church has rejected the underlying essence to all doctrine, the love of God. God's Triunity is about his love as he loves within his own community. God inspiring his Bible is a testimony of him giving to his creation his love bound in a book that is true and honest about himself and his ways, God allowing man to fall into sin is a testimony of God's love as an educator whereby he will allow even pain and short term agony in order to gain the long term educational growth, Christ and his life, death, and resurrection for mankind is a testimony of God's love wrapped in flesh coming to serve humanity in their greatest hour and time of need. The doctrine of God saving man by grace alone through faith alone in Christ is a testimony of God's love displayed through grace and unmerited unconditional love. The truth about us being placed into the body of Christ, under him as the Head, is a testimony of God's protective love whereby he seals us with his Spirit covering us and guiding us in the Spirit of love. And Christ's final return to bring in his kingdom and to judge the world in finality is about his love being displayed in perfect balance whereby justice and grace, both expressions of his love, bring the world to the most loving conclusion that could ever be conjured up in the mind of the Triune God of holiness and love.
So, when a leader or church rejects someone based upon polygyny and polygyny alone it says much about the underlying essence of their highest doctrines. Sometimes those who claim to believe those are the highest doctrines deny it by their practice. For if one says those are the highest doctrines which ought to be defended whereas we will tolerate differences on other doctrines, but then when that theory is tested by someone practicing polygyny and the result is immediate expulsion or excommunication then the problem is that the people are not living according to their own confession for a who person agrees in the highest doctrines and yet is polygynynous and it is for polygyny only that one is ousted by the leadership such shows a breach on what is confessed to what is actually practiced.
In short, we ought not to be the ones guilty of making this doctrine the litmus test for whether or not we will fellowship with other saints. We who are mature know that many other doctrines are higher on the scale of importance. But when challenged we ought to stand behind the highest of highest doctrines and claim those as our standard of faith. Those who grasp the eseence of love in those doctrines will also grasp the essence of love in this minior doctrine. But, if they do not have the formulation of doctrine in the Spirit of love they will likely lash out in anger and with venom against this doctrine of love. In such case they will be the ones who elevate the doctrine to such a level whereby it becomes controversial. We ought not to be contentious nor divisive. If the divison comes it ought to be due to their acts of making this doctrine a make it or break it subject. If a leader can accept a polygynous person then so be it. The other doctrines, if rightly understood in the Spirit of love, are the areas where the mission and highest degree of emphasis needs to be placed for missional action in seeking out the lost who are hopelessly lost and doomed with Christ. We just so happen to believe that mission can be accomplished with celibate people, monogamous people, and with polygynous people as all are in right standing with God so long as they are in step with the Spirit.
Some churches will accept this in the Spirit of love. Other churches will make this such an issue that they elevate it to a higher status than what it ought to be. In such cases where one finds they have been booted then they must pray and either go start a local expression of the church, ask God to send to them leaders that they will join in with to support a local expression of Christ's body, or they must seek to find a local body where they live that will accept them or consider moving to a place to be in a fellowship. Not participating in Christ's body is a serious sin of not loving his people, which is a violation of the law of love in and of itself. Note I did not say how much or how often that participation has to be, but participation is what the Bible requires and I'll say only that and allow the Spirit to handle the rest of the matter in one's conscience.
Some people are bitter towards the churches due to the churches various sins and flaws, some of which are true and some of which are the flaws of the one doing the criticism, and some are rightfully opposed to some churches that are, as Apostle John said, synagogues of Satan.
Some have been kicked out churches for the right reasons and the wrong reasons. Some people have acted in disrespectful ways towards their leaders and thus were ousted or they chose to leave by using the cloud of covering of different doctrinal beliefs when in reality it was their own sin of disrespect, a character flaw, that led to them needing to leave. Others however have been respectful and the stewards or leaders over their souls acted in a wrong way by using their position in an abusive way over those entrusted to their care.
I have found that it largely depends upon the character or maturity of the leaders as well as the individual members as to whether or not co-existence can exist when dealing with not only this topic but any topic of such where sharp differences exist.
Believe it or not, and ask brother John Whitten if you desire another opinion on this, but the doctrine of marriage is NOT a fundamental, non-negotiable, all or nothing doctrine. There are numerous other doctrines that are more important than this one. In what many have now began to call the "Theological Triage," a term used to describe the major doctrinal issues versus the minor doctrinal issues (kinda of like a triage in an emergency room), marriage ranks clearly under the classical fundamental doctrines. Doctrines such as the Triune Godhead, the inspiration and infallible Bible, the supernatural creation of the entire universe, the full fall of mankind into sin whereby he is lost and on the way to peril without redemption, Christ's incarnation shown by his life substituionary death and resurrection for man's redemption, experiential salvation by grace alone through faith alone where people are placed into the body of Christ, and Christ's final and ultimate return to establish his kingdom and bring final judgment to the universe are all higher, more important, and absolutely vital to a true life in the faith.
The doctrine of marriage is not salvific and those who think and act as if it is show their own theological immaturity by placing a minor above a major (see Matthew 23:23 for Christ's word on that).
But wait a minute before throwing the stone this way. When I speak about marriage, or what I prefer to call a biblical union or maybe even a Christian coalescent relationship, I am speaking of the actual act or existence of the union. No pastor, denomination, or saint ought to elevate the type of heterosexual union (monogamous or polygynous) to the same rank as the doctrines above. Furthermore, one could even be celibate and still be walking in step with the Lord and his Spirit. A monogamous person could be walking in step with the Spirit just as much as a polygynous union. No person will die or go to hell or heaven by their celibate, monogamous, or polygynous status.
But here is where the problem arises. The immature often elevate this doctrine to that type of position and thus it leads to great conflict and schism. On our end, at least for the mature who see the larger theological portrait hanging in the archives of holy history, we think the doctrine of love, which is a key defining essence to the character of God, and a trait that Apostle Paul called the greatest trait (1 Cor. 13:13), ought to allow heterosexual love to stand and co-exist. No right minded biblicist would demand and place a requirement on any and all to be polygynous per se. Those who do or act in that way deserve to be booted from any church because they are the ones acting in an unloving way. I have met some who even if they were accepted in this belief would just use another belief and demand the leaders embrace that, and if not then that would be used as the screen or reason as to why they were justified to leave and depart from service in Christ's body. In such case the issue is not the doctrine but the rebellious heart of pride where one wants others to conform to him or her and if not then that one will depart. It is like the child saying if you can't play my way i'll take my toys and go home. Some have never grown out of that childhood status in regard to character maturity.
But for the biblicist he or she recognizes that love is a fundamental that stands behind, underneath, and through the cardinal doctrines of the Bible. Thus, if a church or leader will not allow or accept a polygynous person then that leader or church has rejected the underlying essence to all doctrine, the love of God. God's Triunity is about his love as he loves within his own community. God inspiring his Bible is a testimony of him giving to his creation his love bound in a book that is true and honest about himself and his ways, God allowing man to fall into sin is a testimony of God's love as an educator whereby he will allow even pain and short term agony in order to gain the long term educational growth, Christ and his life, death, and resurrection for mankind is a testimony of God's love wrapped in flesh coming to serve humanity in their greatest hour and time of need. The doctrine of God saving man by grace alone through faith alone in Christ is a testimony of God's love displayed through grace and unmerited unconditional love. The truth about us being placed into the body of Christ, under him as the Head, is a testimony of God's protective love whereby he seals us with his Spirit covering us and guiding us in the Spirit of love. And Christ's final return to bring in his kingdom and to judge the world in finality is about his love being displayed in perfect balance whereby justice and grace, both expressions of his love, bring the world to the most loving conclusion that could ever be conjured up in the mind of the Triune God of holiness and love.
So, when a leader or church rejects someone based upon polygyny and polygyny alone it says much about the underlying essence of their highest doctrines. Sometimes those who claim to believe those are the highest doctrines deny it by their practice. For if one says those are the highest doctrines which ought to be defended whereas we will tolerate differences on other doctrines, but then when that theory is tested by someone practicing polygyny and the result is immediate expulsion or excommunication then the problem is that the people are not living according to their own confession for a who person agrees in the highest doctrines and yet is polygynynous and it is for polygyny only that one is ousted by the leadership such shows a breach on what is confessed to what is actually practiced.
In short, we ought not to be the ones guilty of making this doctrine the litmus test for whether or not we will fellowship with other saints. We who are mature know that many other doctrines are higher on the scale of importance. But when challenged we ought to stand behind the highest of highest doctrines and claim those as our standard of faith. Those who grasp the eseence of love in those doctrines will also grasp the essence of love in this minior doctrine. But, if they do not have the formulation of doctrine in the Spirit of love they will likely lash out in anger and with venom against this doctrine of love. In such case they will be the ones who elevate the doctrine to such a level whereby it becomes controversial. We ought not to be contentious nor divisive. If the divison comes it ought to be due to their acts of making this doctrine a make it or break it subject. If a leader can accept a polygynous person then so be it. The other doctrines, if rightly understood in the Spirit of love, are the areas where the mission and highest degree of emphasis needs to be placed for missional action in seeking out the lost who are hopelessly lost and doomed with Christ. We just so happen to believe that mission can be accomplished with celibate people, monogamous people, and with polygynous people as all are in right standing with God so long as they are in step with the Spirit.
Some churches will accept this in the Spirit of love. Other churches will make this such an issue that they elevate it to a higher status than what it ought to be. In such cases where one finds they have been booted then they must pray and either go start a local expression of the church, ask God to send to them leaders that they will join in with to support a local expression of Christ's body, or they must seek to find a local body where they live that will accept them or consider moving to a place to be in a fellowship. Not participating in Christ's body is a serious sin of not loving his people, which is a violation of the law of love in and of itself. Note I did not say how much or how often that participation has to be, but participation is what the Bible requires and I'll say only that and allow the Spirit to handle the rest of the matter in one's conscience.
For those that live in areas with no fellowship which admits to the WHOLE Truth of the Word of YHVH as Written, there are other options...even if they are the 'e-version'.
I teach with a group of Torah-Observant Believers in the Messiah (we sometimes say "ToBe's"
) who meet in Paltalk on Erev Shabbat, starting live in just a few minutes. (8 AM MST, Colorado time) Believers join us from literally all over the world, those who seek His Truth are always welcome.
The room is called "TalkingTorah". If you are not on Paltalk, check at paltalk.com, and then search for the room from the first screen at the bottom. (A single word, like 'torah', will quickly find it.)
Blessings,
Mark
I teach with a group of Torah-Observant Believers in the Messiah (we sometimes say "ToBe's"
) who meet in Paltalk on Erev Shabbat, starting live in just a few minutes. (8 AM MST, Colorado time) Believers join us from literally all over the world, those who seek His Truth are always welcome.The room is called "TalkingTorah". If you are not on Paltalk, check at paltalk.com, and then search for the room from the first screen at the bottom. (A single word, like 'torah', will quickly find it.)
Blessings,
Mark