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shaving......or not

hey, wasn't trying to shut you down girl,
this is a discussion of all things hair and i am interested in discussing the point that you want to make. your post just brought up a new topic in this subject and i am asking for clarification of the direction that you want to go with it.
 
Often, I think too fast and don't write what I really mean. All I was trying to do was make a point of what the Nazarite Vow actually was. I often hear people use a piece of scripture to explain something they do, but they only get the part they want to get. So I was simply trying to bring balance. This isn't just about the Nazarite Vow. I believe in looking at the Bible in a balanced way, and I was only trying to put in some food for thought. We have had similar discussions about women's hair length, whether women should only wear dresses and also about public v private fasting. Many people who argue against polygamy do it by saying that we aren't under the old testament any more, but these are the same people who tell us we must tithe.

Another thing is that I often get a wild hair and something niggles at me until I have the time to read and study about it. Then, next thing you know there is a post with my name on it. Now how did that get there? Anyway, I wasn't making a point so much as adding to the conversation from a different angle.

When hubby and I were discussing this topic we talked about Sampson and John the Baptist. He reminded me that both Sampson's mother and John the baptist's mother were women who had been barren and were give their child as a specific blessing from God. I realized that both of these women were given children, but the sacrifices they made for those children were very difficult. I also realized this about Hannah and Sarah. In each case, the woman was given a longed for child but then was put in a position to sacrifice in some way for that child. Which showed me that each blessing we are given from God will probably require some sort of a sacrifice.

SweetLissa
 
sweetlissa said:
All I was trying to do was make a point of what the Nazarite Vow actually was.
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well, you posted the directions for how to observe a nazarite vow and that it was for a certain length of time. i agree. what you are missing is the purpose of the vow, the reason for making the vow. that, and only that is what defines the timeframe. when the purpose is accomplished the vow is over and the rest of the instructions are followed. to focus on the length of the vow with no understanding of the purpose does not make any sense. the purposes that YHVH had for both samson and john were lifelong and thus the vow had to be lifelong. the vow had nothing to do with the barrenness or sacrifices of their mothers. it was the boys that had to fulfill the purpose of the vow and spend their lives living under the rules of the vow.

It is just something that has been going through my mind with this thread.
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i believe that i understand what that is, but have edited out my reply to it
I often hear people use a piece of scripture to explain something they do, but they only get the part they want to get.
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too true

while there is plenty of evidence that the romans wore their hair short and i am sure that some of the israelites copied them (tax collectors come to mind), i have yet to see the evidence that the majority of the non-jerusalem israelites copied the customs of the hated occupiers of their country.
yeah, i used to believe that he was clean-shaven and short haired also.
 
I vote for the beard. Reason being, the Bible commands it of men.

MY PRAYER: Let us never look to the Bible for passages on how we don't have to follow the Bible. With one misquoted verse, a thousand pages are effectively "cancelled". Then why carry the whole thing? :o Why not just carry the Books of Paul...its lighter. Its the disease of western pago-Christianity in MHO. :geek:

In Yaweh,

David
 
but do we have to carry ALL of the books of paul? some of them just are so........... ;)

beards commanded? would that be a different understanding of "not rounding the corners of"?
or are you refering to something else?
 
Ya "commanded"

maybe need to unlearn my jew-ishness a bit lol. Sometimes anything thats in the 613 I assume its commanded but take it for granted. Tanks for the reminder....Its not really written as a command, but even a "sublte suggestion" from G-d is enuff for me to grow my scruff. ;)

Blessings for eternity
 
davidtee said:
... but even a "sublte suggestion" from G-d is enuff for me to grow my scruff.
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I guess we each stand or fall to our own master. Personally, I've never found God in the least bit subtle. It seems to me that the point of Deu 12:32 (Observe what I said. Neither add nor redact.) is that he's telling us to NOT look for hidden subtleties. He's perfectly willing to say just what he has in mind right out loud, clearly.

So whether I wear a beard or not, I won't disfigure it as a sign of mourning for the dead.

Having said that, ... Steve Turner, I think you've got a story to tell here. Please. It's a good one. Very thought provoking. And I've got followup that I didn't get to tell you Friday night on the phone. Shoot, we'd ONLY talked for 2 hours straight !!! :lol: I'll add it after you tell your story, if you do.
 
Umm ... sorta related. This question to anyone working in a corporate environment.

Have you noticed a subtle, or perhaps not-so-subtle, hostility from clean shaven upper management if YOU wear a beard, no matter how short and neatly trimmed? I have, and wonder why.

Is it possible that deep within the human psyche, the beard is recognized as a sign of authority, and when someone further down the corporate chain wears one, the top of the chain (especially if they're cleanshaven) feels challenged?

Speculating even more wildly, is it possible that at that deep level, it is recognized as a sign of SPIRITUAL authority, at least in today's mostly clean shaven environment, and thus generates hostility from an upper management member who is having a fairly open affair with the married office receptionist despite his wife and kids at home?

I shaved my beard off a couple of months ago, not thinking of spiritual aspects, just having noticed that I was the only beard wearer in the office. It was remarkable how some folks kinda thawed thereafter, though it COULD have been due to other things happening in the company. But one wonders ...
 
david, any understanding of what the jews believe/believed and what they felt commanded to do is of course grist for the mill and part of the discussion
i just want to know where things referred to are found

cec m'boy, is you outing my hairy rump? :lol:
it was great talkin to ya and will post more later

just read your last befor postin this, u shir is a-stirin da pot now ;)
 
Nooo, Steve! 'Tother end!
 
Really interesting insight Cecil about the beard in the corporate world.

I'm the only one in my office with a beard too.

Deut 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Leviticus 21:5 Priests must not shave their heads or shave off the edges of their beards or cut their bodies.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

These tell me.....no shavey shave. Me a priest.
:geek:
Again, all in MHO.
 
Not that I disagree as to the preference for wearing beards, mind you, but ... playing the opposing side of the argument ...

Lev 21:5 NKJV "They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh."

On the surface, standing alone, this looks like just the sort of commandment you suggest. However, it DOESN'T just stand alone. It has a context.

All of Israel was designed by God to be a nation of priests. Yet God made a specific differentiation within that group for the descendents of Levi, and especially Aaron. Lev 21:1 sets the context for the above mentioned passage. "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: None shall defile himself for the dead among his people...' "

This was a special set of rules, not for the Israelites in general. Not even for the Levites in general. But specifically for the sons of Aaron. That lets me out. Prolly you, too, though you're still free to follow it.

Thing is, by the rules of logic, if you wish to consider yourself bound by this portion of the passage, then you should consider yourself bound by all of it. That pretty well limits your choices of wives to a true virgin or an actual widow. It also means that if your daughter becomes sexually active before marriage you're supposed to burn her with fire. No mention is made as to whether that should be pre or post mortem.

Naaaw. I may grow the beard again, and if so, I won't shave the corners nor my head as a sign of morning for the dead, but I'm not going to claim this passage as a general prescription for God's people. So ... off to shavey shave. :ugeek:

PS: Sir BumbleBerry the Itchy says I've been serious just about long enough. And he's switching from Walgreen Giant Lollipops to Dairy Queen Blizzards. He claims that Mint Chocolate + Blueberry would be excellent.
 
I wasn't putting the barren women together with the Nazarite vow. Only mentioning something that occurred to me during the conversation with hubby. My mind works that way and wanders and wanders and wanders. Sometimes I try to catch it cause it is too little be left alone, but it is very agile and gets away from me.

SweetLissa
 
Don't worry, Lissa. We rather enjoy your wandering mind. If it swings by here, we'll try to keep it occupied playing sudoku until you catch up. *big grin*
 
Okay, but I can't afford to pay much for babysitting. Lets call it a play date for my mind and Sir Bumbleberry. Maybe my mind will learn to behave itself.

SweetLissa
 
I will put my 2 cents worth here...

I can find no command in the Bible for men to grow a beard. We can assume that Jesus had a beard based on some scriptures, such as Isaiah 50:6. So for those who want to have one, go for it! I am sure God will honor it. The command not to disfigure the edges of a beard, (Lev. 19:17) is for all Israelites, (Lev. 19:1) not just priests or sons of Aaron. However, the disfiguring of the edges of the beard was a pagan practice that God told the Israelites not to do, so that they did not follow the demonic rituals of their evil neighbors, not because their beards should not be groomed.

I prefer to be clean shaven and my wife prefers me not to have facial hair. It does make me look younger and I find it easier to maintain. I have a deep relationship with the Lord and God has always honored my commitment to Him. When I did have a beard a few years ago, I did not have any more power in my ministry and lost none, but have gained power since I shaved it off. This tells me that there is no power from God due to having facial hair. No offense please, but this kind of trivial debate is one of the reasons people think that some Christians are a bit off. As people who understand Christian polygyny, we do not need to give our opponents any more ammunition than necessary. If you want to follow Paul then do as he did. When he was with any group of people, he acted as they did. If all the people around you are clean shaven, then maybe one should consider what Paul would have done, (I Cor. 9:19-23). There is error in the interpretation, (and especially the intent) of scripture here and we need to be more careful about these things. My advice to those who want to keep the Old Law remains the same...study the book of Galatians. Jesus suffered and died to make us free, not to put us again into the bondage of Old Testament rituals. Let us move into the higher realm of walking in the Spirit that God paved the way for through Jesus' suffering and death and not resurrect something that God ahs put to death for good reason, as it is bondage, (read Hebrews).

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
lissa,
sorry that i misunderstood about the barren women/vow thing. i thought that it was in context :oops:

drray,
hey man, just do what Yeshua asks you to do and you will be fine. powerfull prophets have been required to do the opposite of what looks correct.

cec,
gots no time to write the story yet, but (awed whisper) the land of lake woebegone? :o :shock: :o
hmmm, ya cant be all bad ;)
 
ok, here it is;

i'm going to be very hazy as to dates on the timeline because shewhoremembers (she-who-remembers, mercy but that looked awfull) is at a conference.
in the latter part of the last century when we were living on an orphanage in old mexico i started being weak all of the time. short story; i was toxic because of bowel problems and breathing lacquer at the cabinet shop. my liver was going farther south. i was major sick for 2.5-3 years. hemoglobin when first measured was at 6.3 which is life threatening. could not sleep at night, only for about 3 hours starting around 6am. couldn't nap at all. 5'9.5" and got down to 127lbs.
i did some internal cleanses and started feeling a little better. but i was so weary of feeling weak and wanted to be back to normal. then i felt to ask for a "samson annointing". did i find that anywhere in the bible? no. did i take a nazarite vow? no. after asking i felt YHVH say "just do what samson did". well, ok, thats easy. i remember sunday school stories about that log haired hippy looking dude. so i let my hair and beard grow. within 6 months (with no help from any doctor) i was doing tree service climbing 50 feet in the air. remember, i took no nazarite vow, i was just asking for some help. did i get super-strong? no, just normal strength for the exercise that i was getting. but i was opperating above my hemoglobin level, so it was above-natural (super natural).
things were going fine until one week when we picked up a bottle of wine at costco. we had some with dinner a couple of nights and i started feeling weaker again. i can't tell you how freaked out i was. i was doing everything that i knew to do and sliding back toward being an invalid or worse. we had no clue that it was the wine because i had not taken a vow and we did not know that it was in the mix. well, that weekend a friend was going to cut another guys hair and asked me if i was done with my nazarite vow yet. i had never considered it as a vow. i grabbed her bible and looked up samson's story. there it was in black and white. YHVH told samsons mother to put him under a nazarite vow from birth on. i repented for not searching out all that samson had done and went back to logging at full strength.
what was interesting was that YHVH physicaly affirmed to me that i was under that vow when i had not taken one.
my wife has asked me when i will be done with it. i told her that it will not be until i am ready to be sick again. :)

so,yeah, i run into people with their handy-dandy set of bible verses that presume to know how YHVH wants me to live my life. it always seems that they are more comfortable having a relationship with YHVH through what He said, rather than a relationship directly with Him, listening to what He wants to say today.

so, does a nazarite vow bring healing? only if YHVH wants to work in that way ;)
if you think that you can force His hand by following some mxgical ritual, ya gots unutha think comin
 
Interesting story. God will often ask specific things of specific people. However, there are a set number of things that are for everyone else. Daily spending time with God, study of the word, prayer, (especially over one's body for healing - binding any sickness, loosing the healing and thanking God daily for specific healings that He has given, as Jesus is our 'daily Bread') and taking communion daily, (which includes wine) are the things that I advise everyone who wants a solid relationship with the Lord and to keep a healing once they get it. If there is a specific sickness, of course being anointed with oil by an elder of the church and praying the prayer of faith is often, (though not always) required, (James 5:15-18). Christians will usually need to deal with the specific spiritual root cause of the illness in order to get the fullness of the healing to manifest, since we are supposed to know the truth about healing and in general why we get sick. However, the leaders of the church do not know these things for the most part, (though some do) and most church leaders cannot get people healed, (Ezekiel 34).

In my time learning about healing from God, I have seen blind eyes and deaf ears opened, the lame walk, acute and chronic pain disappear, cancer go, diabetes cured, HIV/AIDS cleared, etc. Many times only speaking the Word is necessary and not even laying hands on people is required in order to get a healing. I told one terminal cancer patient that as I spoke the Word to her that her pain would leave and to her amazement it did. When God healed my wife's eyes it was before we got together, she was in South Africa and I was in Kansas. I was speaking to her by phone. She laid hands on herself and I prayed. God said to me ‘3 days’ as I was praying. I told Melissa that in 3 days she would no longer need her glasses. On the 4th day indeed here eyes were healed and she no longer needed glasses. God has healed me directly from a number of illnesses that have no known cure in the natural. I often anoint myself and lay hands on myself for healing. I have been healed of high blood pressure, (a harsh spirit) cardiac arrhythmias, (a spirit of fear), back pain, (improper love walk) visual disturbance, (focusing on things other than the things of God), skin conditions, (disobedience), etc., all by following these things that God has revealed to me directly and in His Word. It is not too hard. Most sicknesses have obvious root causes in the spirit that, once dealt with, will allow the sickness to leave. Jair can attest to this concept, as he has been healed by following the simple steps that I outlined for him.

I am not trying to take away from trying to follow Biblical guidelines that God gave Israel, if that is where one's faith is, (though they are no longer necessary - we can enjoy everything in moderation). If following the old law works and they are happy with it, praise God. I am trying to get people to come to a higher place that Jesus suffered for us to attain and He and the apostles taught about, but most do not see. These are spiritual things and can only be discerned by those who walk according to the Spirit. There are always exceptions and if God wants someone to do some specific thing for some specific reason, such as take a vow, then He will make that clear to them. I am relaying what God has given me for the rest of the body of Christ. Again, that is not to take away from what God is doing in anyone's specific situation. There are too many sick Christians and it is high time people grasped these truths and started walking in them. Jesus will not come back until we do and are perfected in healing as well as getting perfected/mature in the rest of our Christian walk, (Isaiah 33, esp. v. 24 and Eph. 4:9-16 and others).

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
Okay, now I see why I offended you. I am sorry. That was not my intention in any way. It was just the only thing I knew about hair issues in the bible and hubby and I had talked about it. I was just trying to add to the mix and do it with scriptures. Because I have been told time and again not to make any statements without scripture to back them up.

Mea culpa.

SweetLissa
 
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