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So what have we learned?

the church tradition

You say that someone has to be sent.

but I ask have they not heard? indeed they have...
Romans 10:18

and when believers gather there is church.
 
Nope, that's my point. HE is there among them but there is no church. Leaders must be appointed by authority as well. Point two.
 
it is so sad that He does not have the authority to appoint leaders so that He could make it a church while He it right there among them. :(
 
So you're saying then Steve, that God would speak to one or more of the group, and tell them that they're the boss?
 
Ok, funny (sorta), but still, we're making the case for being Pentecostal I think. "God spoke to me. Thus saith the LORD."
 
I really don't want to do this. Either we make fun (which is what I don't want to do) or we really discuss it. Show me the man that God has come to and said "You're It."
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Ok, funny (sorta), but still, we're making the case for being Pentecostal I think. "God spoke to me. Thus saith the LORD."

no you're just trying to make it into something magical. the selection process for an elder is very down earth. there are a list qualifications. but no mention of "being sent". in fact it seems to suggest a local.
 
How is a preacher a preacher then, unless he is sent? Select all you want once the church is endorsed, but Paul says that a preacher is sent, not elected from the congregation on the basis of qualifications. I'll grant you that subsequent preachers can be selected that way, but then, they have been sent as well. Where does this "Sending" come from? Someone sends. Are you saying we get together and send ourselves?
 
Hugh McBryde said:
I really don't want to do this. Either we make fun (which is what I don't want to do) or we really discuss it. Show me the man that God has come to and said "You're It."
I don't understand why we can't discuss it and have fun. A point was made albeit in a humorous way.
 
Show me the man that God has come to and said "You're It."
in my Book, everyone has the responsibility to lead, starting with your own household.
secondarily, lead others to the Lord and in their growth. but remember that you do not own them.

if the Lord gives you so much to feed them that they keep coming back for more and bring others........

we accepted being "it" when we embraced His kingdom. we became sent at that point.
 
I'm sorry, but this isn't fun for me Neo. It's pretty fair to say that right now I absolutely hate it.

Steve, you're dancing around Romans, and I'd really like it if you dealt with it as opposed to avoided it, which is pretty much what Neo is doing as well.

In fact, it is also fair to say that no one has dealt with the issue of Romans 10 no matter who it is that I bring the subject up to, they don't deal with it, they just bat it away.

Romans says preachers are "sent." Who sends?

Saying that "everyone should lead" is pretty much an Americanism.

Paul went around endorsing and Authorizing churches with the authority of his direct sending from Christ, and that of the early church leadership in Jerusalem. Of the two, only the second form still exists in my understanding. Christ is alive, he is King, but he works through those things he left behind, when he left. No one has come to me and told me that they were sent by Jesus who came to them in a Blinding Light and said "you're it dude."
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Nope, that's my point. HE is there among them but there is no church. Leaders must be appointed by authority as well. Point two.
Please cite the foundational scriptures for these theories.

I did deal with Romans chapter ten.

Look, your making a doctrine out of a question. Your drawing a conclusion from a rhetorical question at that. Church isn't even the subject. The matter is concluded that the word does get out. To all the earth.

So you need to find somewhere else to support your theory.
 
So you're saying Timothy was appointed by the congregation? At least your answer to Romans 10 now has some form. If it's rhetorical, you're saying that the success of a church says their leadership was "sent." A sort of "we'll know them when or if we see them" analysis.
 
sorry hugh, but you believe in an arbitrary interpretation that just supports man's tradition.
to invest the authority to preach completely and only in the hands of man precludes the authority of the Almighty to call and send. the presumption of the position is preposterous and thus humorous.
there is no answer because the question is wrong.
 
1 Timothy 3:1-7
Clear qualifications for selecting an elder.

So do you concede that Romans chapter ten isn't about church? If not please explain.
 
I would not concede that. We should examine the word "sent" as it appears in Romans 10. I would contend that no one holds an office within the church without being "sent." What we should examine is the Greek word ἀποστέλλω (apostellō), which is used in this case which isn't exactly a mild word. It is powerful. It's more or less to be "under orders" from someone who can give them. I've provided a link to "BlueLetterBible" so that you can look at how it's used. Please don't stop at the mere definition which gives all potential meanings of the word (possibly including meanings not used or used very much in the New Testament), please look at how it's actually used.

To make the story short, when a preacher is sent, he is sent by someone in authority, and is given that portion of that authority as a result. Nowhere in scripture do we find churches simply "authorizing" themselves without first being planted or recognized by some central authority. Paul planted many of the churches and he was pretty clear he controlled them. Paul also answered to the authorities in Jerusalem. Here is an example in Galatians:
Contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter ( For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars*, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
Paul could claim authorization from Christ, and forgo the whole business about going through Jerusalem, but does not, he answers to them and is sent by them. He continues to do this, Acts 21:
The day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."
I find it fascinating that the one man among the Apostles to be able to claim the "Blinding Light Experience" also bothers to go before Earthly authorities in the early Church and obtain a commission from them, and continues to answer to them.

We however cannot any of us claim to have had "blinding light" callings, yet we assume calls (for this is the upshot of calling Romans 10 "rhetorical") and do so on our own. Nothing in scripture prior suggests that men simply strike out on their own. They need contact with God's church on earth. Witness Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8, where the Eunuch states this about understanding the meaning of Isaiah:
How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him."
Philip of course does guide him and no one can deny by what authority Philip was sent to the Eunuch.

The early church went to the Temple in Jerusalem, even though the environment was best termed "hostile" and eventually got displaced into Solomon's Portico and eventually everyone but the leaders where chased out of Jerusalem (which resulted in more evangelism and more belief).

Paul continues to recognize a Sadducee as high priest and "ruler of his people" in Acts 23:
They that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."
This is the self same passage that Paul claims continued standing as a Pharisee. These people do not break willingly with authority, nor do they show disrespect for it, even if Ananias, a Sadducee and the current High Priest is clearly not a believer.

God wants us to obey and teaches us submission to authority. We recognize this in the home and say it to our wives and cite the passages that say even though their husband is an unbeliever, to submit to him.

What makes us so special that we think we can strike out on our own? Even Nabal's insult to David is based on the concept of rebellion, which David doesn't take so well when he hears it, for he almost kills Nabal:
Nabal answered David's servants, and said, Who is David? and who is the son of Jesse? there be many servants now a days that break away every man from his master."
David probably knew of Samuel's reproach to Israel when they asked for a King in the first place:
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry."
Yet we seem to think nothing of breaking away from our masters. The whole concept of having a "master" is a bitter thing in our mouths.

*One should study Paul's use of the Greek word for Pillar, which he uses twice, and also it's appearance in Revelation.
 
who sent noah?
who sent abraham?
who sent moses?
who sent samson's mother to set samson under a nazarite vow?
who sent samson, his mother?
who sent samuel's mother to give him to eli?
who sent samuel to annoint saul and david?

the god who never changes, thats who. how did He lose His right to annoint/send in the new testament?

we need some clear scripture that states that He has given up this right, not assumptions built on assumptions.
 
Nowhere in scripture do we find churches simply "authorizing" themselves without first being planted or recognized by some central authority
of course, the teachings did not just appear out of thin air. they had no "transfer growth" of mature believers as exists nowdays.

you cannot just assume a doctrine based upon circumstances.
 
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