Supply and Demand

[ylop]

Some thoughts I have been contemplating, using the field of economics this time:

1. Polygamy is Biblical.
2. Biblical marriage is patriarchal - the man is in charge, leads, sets direction.
3. Demand for additional wives is high.
4. Western society denigrates patriarchy.
5. As a result of #4 and religious pressure, very few women will consider a Biblical marriage as in #1 and #2 above.
6. Supply of additional wives is very low. I mean, compare the number of posts where you see the old "Hi, we are new here, we have just discovered PM and are looking for someone to join our family" versus the number of posts saying "I am a single woman who has just discovered PM and would like to join a family" - actually writing that last bit almost has me rolling on the floor laughing at its ridiculous scarcity.
7. High demand and low supply means high price as in the seller can dictate the conditions of sale.
8. The seller dictating the terms of sale means in practical terms that the woman controls when, where, who with, how long; and she can also end the transaction knowing she can easily find another buyer.
9. The buyer has to drop many buying conditions that would normally be standard, and indeed are routinely used when selecting first wives.
10. Items 8 and 9 undermine item 2.
11. Add to this equation the social pressures pulling apart such relationships, and I struggle to see how this will work.

ylop

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Ylop,

You're right, it will not work if the people are pragmatists. But true believers in the Lord when they covenant together they will do fine because of the Spirit living in them. Tough times? Sure like all unions have. But if people truly love the Lord and believe covenant violations and thus continual living in sin makes one an unbeliever (John 3:9) then the odds are very strong in the favor of believers staying the course.

 

[ylop]

Hi Dr Allen.

Yes I agree in theory it will work for true believers.

Thing is, I work in the business world, and see people walk away from commitments all the time. Only a strong written agreement will survive, and often even in those circumstances legal threats or the courts are required to enforce previously-agreed conditions.

So I am skeptical about human nature, and also do not ever want to get divorced.

ylop

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

So I am skeptical about human nature, and also do not ever want to get divorced.

Sure, human nature is weak but where sin and human weakness abounds grace abounds all the more. The real issue is whether or not the people are truly believers and mature. Too it is not so much about human nature as it is about God and his power and grace. Two or more people who truly believe that an unjustified renunciation of a covenant union is a renunciation of life in grace will press ahead. But, those who do not truly understand what it means to be a slave to Christ and what it means to be in a covenant union with him which corresponds to a man and woman's covenant union will certainly lead to disaster for those when pressure comes. Christ spoke about it. Some seed sprouts up quick and it dies out in the heat. Some seed sprouts up and is choked out by thorns and thistles. Many unions are like that. The union is sown in bad soil. Only the seed sown in the good soil lasts and only the unions sown in the good true soil will last.

 

[ylop]

Well yes I agree about mature true believers however those principles are equally applicable to first marriages. And last time I checked the divorce rate was close to 50% and that is in an environment where church and society supports the marriage.

My issue is, what are the realistic chances when everything is set against it?

The participants are still human.

ylop the pm skeptic

 

[ylop]

Actually, my main point of this post was:

How is a marriage going to be biblical and patriarchal; when at its commencement it may be built on compromised standards and a deep acquiescence and/or servitude to the female?

ylop

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, my main point of this post was:

How is a marriage going to be biblical and patriarchal; when at its commencement it may be built on compromised standards and a deep servitude to the female?

ylop

It is only possible to make the transition when one or both parties begins the move to personal adaptation of Biblical principles of marriage and leadership (patriarchy) and then by example and prayer persuades the other to also come to honor the Lord and His Word. We can really , only change ourselves. God must be the one to change another.

 

[Isabella]

Actually, my main point of this post was:

How is a marriage going to be biblical and patriarchal; when at its commencement it may be built on compromised standards and a deep servitude to the female?

ylop

I am sorry ylop as I know it is a fact which bothers you but it is exactly right, there are many more couples than single women looking and if you do not have the Church validation like the FLDS or community validation like Muslims, most women will resent the fact that beyond the home they lose status and are treated as Mistresses or extra marital girlfriends (which no self respecting woman wants to be). Women who want to try are pretty rare and people who want to live this way more than anything, who write and obsess about it, are the ones more likely to accept compromise in worldview, religion, aims and interests in the (false) hope that their having a strong religious conviction that marriage is for life, will rub off on this new woman. I have even known of women to lie about their interests and worldview, saying she likes or agrees with everything the couple like, in the courtship phase and after 'marriage' letting all the real her show, people will then say 'Oh she lied, she isn't the person she portrayed herself to be' It is a minefield, love isn't enough because living outside of society is difficult, ideology only is not enough because single women are in high demand and she knows she can move from one family to another if she so chooses.

For most people it is really luck rather than purpose and most of us are not that lucky. You have to accept the fact that it might not happy, just like you may not have more children or you may not be a rich man etc.

We don't get everything we want in life.

B

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

bels wrote:

We don't get everything we want in life.

I got Jesus. What more do I need? Anything else He blesses me with is just a bonus!

Bels, you made some great points. People do put on a mask which tends to slip off when the honeymoon is over...and the ladies don't have a corner on that market.

That's where born-again believers have an advantage compared to non-believers, if we seek God's Will in everything. There's the spiritual gift of discernment, which any believer can have just for the asking:

James 4:2 NKJV You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. {emphasis mine}

And, of course, a believer should never enter into a Biblical Covenant Union (what the world would call by the pagan-Greco-Roman-Catholic word "marriage") with a non-believer.

 

[Isabella]

And, of course, a believer should never enter into a Biblical Covenant Union (what the world would call by the pagan-Greco-Roman-Catholic word "marriage") with a non-believer.

Yes of course but how long will a believer wait before getting a bit desperate and taking the first woman who will say yes, hoping to influence her to his way of thinking later?

The problem here is treating Polygamy as a goal in itself, rather than a valid form of family which may be on the cards for you.

B

 

[Doc]

Here is a question for folks, married and single:

"If you knew that Biblical plural marriage would NEVER happen in your life, would you still believe it?"

 

[steve]

i probably will never visit the moon, but i believe that it exists

 

[Doc]

Yes, but is it made of cheese, and what kind?

LOL

 

[steve]

some nights it smells like limburger, but that might have been that hog-hauler that i just went by :?

 

[ylop]

...if you do not have the Church validation like the FLDS or community validation like Muslims, most women will resent the fact that beyond the home they lose status and are treated as Mistresses or extra marital girlfriends (which no self respecting woman wants to be). Women who want to try are pretty rare and people who want to live this way more than anything, who write and obsess about it, are the ones more likely to accept compromise in worldview, religion, aims and interests in the (false) hope that their having a strong religious conviction that marriage is for life, will rub off on this new woman. I have even known of women to lie about their interests and worldview, saying she likes or agrees with everything the couple like, in the courtship phase and after 'marriage' letting all the real her show, people will then say 'Oh she lied, she isn't the person she portrayed herself to be' It is a minefield, love isn't enough because living outside of society is difficult, ideology only is not enough because single women are in high demand and she knows she can move from one family to another if she so chooses.

Yes B, that is it exactly.

Outside close religious communities, the women are in the drivers seat and they know it.

Which I think is fundamentally incompatible with most of the concepts discussed in this forum.

Hence we are largely talking pie in the sky.

ylop

 

[ylop]

"If you knew that Biblical plural marriage would NEVER happen in your life, would you still believe it?"

Yes, absolutely.

ylop
non-practicing believer

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Which I think is fundamentally incompatible with most of the concepts discussed in this forum.

Then are you here to promote pessimism/despair or to encourage others with the faith hope and love that true love in Christian covenant unions/cohabitation can be done in the Lord.

I think your idea about the "ladies being in the driver" seat is because so many are still embracing the "state marriages" instead of private cohabitation unions which is what took place in the Roman era and biblical era. The term "marriage" was created around the 1300's and it reflected a licensure system instead of a private commenced cohabitation system. It also was conferred in the new sense whereas in the NT there was no government conferring the right onto anyone. In the biblical era it was private covenant unions not marriages. Before the 11th to 13th century there was no such thing as "marriage" as we know it today, only private consensual unions. Marriage was a created idea that developed with new definitions that contrasted the prior ideas of the Biblical and Roman era when the apostles lived.

If people would move away from the public marital or marriage state systems and practice private Christian cohabitation unions then much would change and no one person would be in the driver seat and ladies could not use the systems of the day to control because instead of being married the people are in private cohabitation unions. If a split were to happen then distribution of items would be processed based upon percentages of contribution. Those here in America have this freedom due the recognition of this in Supreme Court Case law such as in the Lawrence V. Texas case.

The licensure system and the modern marriage system can indeed be a thorn but if everyone from the beginning goes the private Christian cohabitation or private Christian covenant cohabitation route then much of the issues are then placed on a level playing field.

 

[sola scriptura]

The problem here is treating Polygamy as a goal in itself, rather than a valid form of family which may be on the cards for you.

B

Excellent point.

 

[ylop]

Then are you here to promote pessimism/despair or to encourage others with the faith hope and love that true love in Christian covenant unions/cohabitation can be done in the Lord.

Well I think pessimism/despair is a bit excessive, given that in the post immediately before that one I affirmed my unconditional belief in Biblical Marriage.

But I suppose like most pessimists I will say that I am a "realist"!

Seriously now, polygamy stands against the tide of 80 or more years of feminism. As they say in sharetrading, the trend is your friend. Or put another way, it is courageous to believe that suddenly society will embrace patriarchy. Still, courage is a good thing.

ylop
realist

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Courage yes but more so than that, courage along with wisdom and maturity.

Much of the issues people see and hear about where unions split is because of either unbelief on one or both partners or because of severe immaturity that was never dealt with prior to the union.

Those who are truly born again, and who are wise in their courage, and mature disciples who remain disciples with those they respect and find wisdom in do rather well. Problems? Sure, everyone has them by divine design (see James 1). But if the above things are in place then realism shows good results tend to follow.

Trials of life have a way of exposing how mature one is in the faith. Too they press people to grow towards endurance. Those whose faith is sown in the good soil will trudge ahead and will produce good fruit. That is realism to be excited over and to look forward to. Granted, only one seed of the four that Christ spoke of produced fruit. So some might focus on that portion. But if we look at that text we find a rather unique statement of the ones who are fruitful. Of that category there are different degrees of those those produce fruit but interestingly all of them actually produce some fruit with others producing more. So let's think of that in stock market terms. If we knew for a fact that if we had the right soil (the right fund built upon placing in that fund the right companies who apply certain key principles) that it was a guarantee that everyone of that group would produce or gain some fruit then we have another perspective all together. In that type of case the guaranteed return is a hopeful realism balanced with knowledge that in some cases more fruit will come from some than others but even so all of those in that group will in fact yield some fruit/return.

If people view unions in that light it is a balanced realism rooted in the right soil, i.e. the right mixture of truly born again saints, courageous yet wise in the practice of it, and disciples who still love to be sharing as they still learn from others to.

Most of the unions in any area of any type fail because something in that mixture is not there. Some men are courageously dumb. They rush into a union and never take the time to disciple the lady. Often it is because the man has never really been a disciple of anyone himself. Thus, h does no know how to make a disciple because he has never been one. Sometimes the man does not take the time to let trials of life shape the woman. Sometimes the woman does not have a protector over her or she alone does not let trials have enough time to judge the man's character and thus unions take place when one man is not really born again. Sometimes men rush and the woman is not really born again. All of that is sowing in bad soil. Bad soil = bad yields.

But, when the man and woman are truly born again, which is most often verified over time in watching how they handle themselves in trials of life, and when they are mature and not childish, and when they are courageous yet wise, and when they remain disciples of others while they disciple others then that combination is one of good soil that produces good yields., i.e. strong unions in the Lord.

The problem is not with the practice of patriarchy or the aspect of polygyny, but the problem is t soil composition of those who seek to be patriarchs living in polygyny. As Pastor John here rightly says so often, the issue is one of character. Bad character or immature character is bad soil ad will produce bad results. Good character is good soil and will produce good results. This is also what Apostle John taught us in 1 John 3. Truly redeemed born again saints will practice righteousness. The unredeemed will not. This is how we know who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil.

Likewise, a love union brings with it tests and trials. It reveals the character in the people. And the combination mentioned above has shown itself to be a great one for producing good results. Some in that combination will produce tenfold worth of fruit, some twentyfold, and others even more but all will produce some and that is guaranteed from the Lord who says that when his seed is sown on good soil fruit will occur. Thus in that there is no degree of pessimism but only hope and motivation to make sure one is sowing in the right soil as he or sh goes about living a life of love.