Ungodly polygamists in the Bible

[Bartato]

I don't know if we have discussed this before, but there were a number of ungodly polygamists in the Bible. We frequently consider the godly ones, but the ungodly also merit discussion.

Even the ungodly polygamists help us see that the God of the Bible regards polygyny as marriage, not adultery or sexual immorality.

Two men that immediately come to mind are Esau and King Saul. Both men failed to honor the Lord, and were rejected by Him.

They were both polygamists, but were never rebuked for their polygamy. The polygamy doesn't seem to have bothered God.

Esau married two apparently pagan Canaanite women, and this grieved his parents Isaac and Rebecca. Esau later married a third woman in an attempt to improve relations with his parents. The third woman was of the more godly line of Ishmael.

Isaac and Rebecca don't seem to have been bothered by Esau's polygamy. God doesn't treat Esau as an adulterer, but does reject him as ungodly because he despised his birthright by selling it for a bowl of stew (Genesis 25, and Hebrews 12).

King Saul was also a polygamist. Remember that his wives (plural) were later given to David (2nd Samuel 12).

Saul was also rejected by God for his disobedience, but never rebuked for his polygamy. Saul was rebuked and rejected because he disobeyed God by failing to kill king Agag, and for keeping the forbidden spoil of the Amalekites, in direct disobedience to the instruction of the Lord.

 

[NickF]

Abimelech comes to mind.

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

 

[Bartato]

Abimelech comes to mind.

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

That is a good point.

That passage is a very strong proof that God permits polygamy.

I don't know if we can call Abimelech "ungodly", as he seems to have feared YAHWEH, but he was outside the covenant people.

 

[MeganC]

Esau married two apparently pagan Canaanite women

But had he taken them as slaves that would have been peachy keen.

 

[frederick]

I don't know if we have discussed this before, but there were a number of ungodly polygamists in the Bible. We frequently consider the godly ones, but the ungodly also merit discussion.

Even the ungodly polygamists help us see that the God of the Bible regards polygyny as marriage, not adultery or sexual immorality.

Two men that immediately come to mind are Esau and King Saul. Both men failed to honor the Lord, and were rejected by Him.

They were both polygamists, but were never rebuked for their polygamy. The polygamy doesn't seem to have bothered God.

Esau married two apparently pagan Canaanite women, and this grieved his parents Isaac and Rebecca. Esau later married a third woman in an attempt to improve relations with his parents. The third woman was of the more godly line of Ishmael.

Isaac and Rebecca don't seem to have been bothered by Esau's polygamy. God doesn't treat Esau as an adulterer, but does reject him as ungodly because he despised his birthright by selling it for a bowl of stew (Genesis 25, and Hebrews 12).

King Saul was also a polygamist. Remember that his wives (plural) were later given to David (2nd Samuel 12).

Saul was also rejected by God for his disobedience, but never rebuked for his polygamy. Saul was rebuked and rejected because he disobeyed God by failing to kill king Agag, and for keeping the forbidden spoil of the Amalekites, in direct disobedience to the instruction of the Lord.

I think those are worthwhile points to keep in mind as the M-O brigade like to conjure up false accusations against the likes of Lamech. Yet God never raises the polygyny issue with those known for particular disobedience which He rebuked them for. If polygyny was a sin, why didn't He confront them for it when He confronted them for their (other) sins?

 

[FollowingHim]

I think Esau's example is informative. Remember his father was a monogamist, and a godly man. So if any of the patriarchs could be imagined as possibly being opposed to polygamy, it would be him.

Yet when Esau sees that his parents don't like his wives, he seeks to please them by taking yet another wife. If polygamy were wrong, that would not have pleased his parents, it would have made them even more upset. But it was done in an attempt to fix the situation - and nowhere are we told that anyone disapproved of it. We are left with the impression that it was an entirely understandable action to take.

 

[frederick]

Remember his father was a monogamist, and a godly man

I've often wondered if Isaac was a true monogamist.... yes, we know of Rebecca his wife but nothing of any concubines. We only know of his father's concubines because there is a reference to the sons he had with his concubines (see Gen. 25:6) and the inheritance they received. I know it's an argument from silence, but I'm inclined to think Isaac probably had concubines because he inherited a large portion of his father's wealth. As such, he would be a wealthy man with a large household and, as you have noted, having concubines was the norm. Anyway, this is just my thoughts to add to the discussion here.

I think it's a good argument you present though.

 

[Bartato]

I've often wondered if Isaac was a true monogamist.... yes, we know of Rebecca his wife but nothing of any concubines. We only know of his father's concubines because there is a reference to the sons he had with his concubines (see Gen. 25:6) and the inheritance they received. I know it's an argument from silence, but I'm inclined to think Isaac probably had concubines because he inherited a large portion of his father's wealth. As such, he would be a wealthy man with a large household and, as you have noted, having concubines was the norm. Anyway, this is just my thoughts to add to the discussion here.

I think it's a good argument you present though.

It is possible that Isaac had concubines, but since nothing is said about them, I assume he probably didn't.

If he had concubines, he probably would have had more sons, and those sons would have probably been mentioned in Genesis.

Not all rich men chose polygamy. Even our father Jacob didn't really choose it. It's more like he fell into it due to the circumstances.

Likewise, our father Abraham didn't seek polygamy during the lifetime of Sarah, and only took Hagar at the urging of Sarah.

Guys like David, Solomon, and Gideon were clearly polygamous.

Abraham and Jacob were more "facultative polygamists", engaging in it but probably not really oriented that way.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Was Esau ungodly? I see a lot of myself in his rash emoting and consistently melodramatic over-reacting but he didn’t seem like an incredibly immoral man. He certainly greeted Jacob well when he finally returned.

 

[frederick]

Likewise, our father Abraham didn't seek polygamy during the lifetime of Sarah, and only took Hagar at the urging of Sarah.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates when Abraham took concubines. As I've pointed out, we only know he had them because their sons are mentioned in regard to the inheritance.

 

[Bartato]

Was Esau ungodly? I see a lot of myself in his rash emoting and consistently melodramatic over-reacting but he didn’t seem like an incredibly immoral man. He certainly greeted Jacob well when he finally returned.

I'm basing that description on Hebrews 12:6 where he is described as unholy (ESV), or profane (KJV/NKJV), or godless (NASB).

It's not that he was a particularly evil or depraved man. It seems more that he lacked true faith in Yahweh, at least did at the time of the stew-birth right exchange.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I'm basing that description on Hebrews 12:6 where he is described as unholy (ESV), or profane (KJV/NKJV), or godless (NASB).

It's not that he was a particularly evil or depraved man. It seems more that he lacked true faith in Yahweh, at least did at the time of the stew-birth right exchange.

The man is sometimes a stand in for the nation that descended from him. Certainly Edom was unrighteous.

 

[Bartato]

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates when Abraham took concubines. As I've pointed out, we only know he had them because their sons are mentioned in regard to the inheritance.

That's a good point you raise about Ketura. We don't know for certain when Abraham married her. We have a good idea about when he took Hagar based on the age gap between Ishmael and Isaac. There may have also possibly been other concubines who are not named.

I always assumed Abraham married Ketura after Sarah died, since she isn't mentioned until Gen. 25 and Sarah died back in Gen. 23.

That is not at all conclusive, and is probably a residual assumption from back when I use to believe in monogamy only. . The Gen. 25 passage is a genealogy and Abraham may have married Ketura prior to the death of Sarah.

Different topic but ...

The way 1st Chronicles chapter one talks about Abraham's sons is strange.

Verse 28 says that Abraham's sons were Isaac and Ishmael.

Then verse 32 lists the six sons of Abraham's concubine Ketura (presumably Abraham's sons with Ketura).

I wonder why those six sons are not included with Isaac, but Ishmael is. There seems to be a status difference.

Is the son of the wife's maidservant in a different category than the son of one's concubine?

We see the same thing with Jacob's sons. The sons of the maid servants seem to have similar status with the sons of Leah and Rachel.

 

[Bartato]

The man is sometimes a stand in for the nation that descended from him. Certainly Edom was unrighteous.

True, but the Hebrews 12 passage connects his godlessness with one specific act, despising his birthright and exchanging it for stew.

 

[MemeFan]

That's a good point you raise about Ketura. We don't know for certain when Abraham married her. We have a good idea about when he took Hagar based on the age gap between Ishmael and Isaac. There may have also possibly been other concubines who are not named.

I always assumed Abraham married Ketura after Sarah died, since she isn't mentioned until Gen. 25 and Sarah died back in Gen. 23.

That is not at all conclusive, and is probably a residual assumption from back when I use to believe in monogamy only. . The Gen. 25 passage is a genealogy and Abraham may have married Ketura prior to the death of Sarah.

Different topic but ...

The way 1st Chronicles chapter one talks about Abraham's sons is strange.

Verse 28 says that Abraham's sons were Isaac and Ishmael.

Then verse 32 lists the six sons of Abraham's concubine Ketura (presumably Abraham's sons with Ketura).

I wonder why those six sons are not included with Isaac, but Ishmael is. There seems to be a status difference.

Is the son of the wife's maidservant in a different category than the son of one's concubine?

We see the same thing with Jacob's sons. The sons of the maid servants seem to have similar status with the sons of Leah and Rachel.

Possibly there were different marriage contracts with different inheritance rights.

Later sons inherit less.

 

[HomesteadWife]

That's a good point you raise about Ketura. We don't know for certain when Abraham married her. We have a good idea about when he took Hagar based on the age gap between Ishmael and Isaac. There may have also possibly been other concubines who are not named.

I always assumed Abraham married Ketura after Sarah died, since she isn't mentioned until Gen. 25 and Sarah died back in Gen. 23.

That is not at all conclusive, and is probably a residual assumption from back when I use to believe in monogamy only. . The Gen. 25 passage is a genealogy and Abraham may have married Ketura prior to the death of Sarah.

Different topic but ...

The way 1st Chronicles chapter one talks about Abraham's sons is strange.

Verse 28 says that Abraham's sons were Isaac and Ishmael.

Then verse 32 lists the six sons of Abraham's concubine Ketura (presumably Abraham's sons with Ketura).

I wonder why those six sons are not included with Isaac, but Ishmael is. There seems to be a status difference.

Is the son of the wife's maidservant in a different category than the son of one's concubine?

We see the same thing with Jacob's sons. The sons of the maid servants seem to have similar status with the sons of Leah and Rachel.

My understanding is the maidservants of Rachel and Leah were given to Jacob to give him sons FOR Rachel and Leah. Rachel started it because her womb was not open and she wanted to give Jacob sons. Thus the sons born to them would have the same status because they would be considered sons of his wives.

 

[frederick]

Later sons inherit less.

Ishmael was the first son yet Isaac received the inheritance of the first-born.

 

[frederick]

That's a good point you raise about Ketura. We don't know for certain when Abraham married her. We have a good idea about when he took Hagar based on the age gap between Ishmael and Isaac. There may have also possibly been other concubines who are not named.

I always assumed Abraham married Ketura after Sarah died, since she isn't mentioned until Gen. 25 and Sarah died back in Gen. 23.

That is not at all conclusive, and is probably a residual assumption from back when I use to believe in monogamy only. . The Gen. 25 passage is a genealogy and Abraham may have married Ketura prior to the death of Sarah.

Do you understand the reference to concubines in Genesis 25:6 to be referring to Hagar and Keturah? Since Keturah and her sons are named in v:1-2, I've understood v:6 to be referring to other concubines.

Genesis 25:1 Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah. 2 And she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah. 3 Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim. 4 And the sons of Midian were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac. 6 But Abraham gave gifts to the sons of the concubines which Abraham had; and while he was still living he sent them eastward, away from Isaac his son, to the country of the east.

 

[FollowingHim]

Do you understand the reference to concubines in Genesis 25:6 to be referring to Hagar and Keturah? Since Keturah and her sons are named in v:1-2, I've understood v:6 to be referring to other concubines.

If this is referring to other concubines, then Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah received absolutely nothing from Abraham before he died, but some other random sons we know nothing about were treated better and received gifts from him. This just doesn't sound right. I think v6 is more likely telling us how he treated all his sons other than Isaac - which means that it is referring to Hagar and Keturah as the concubines. These sons were sent east, and that is where we know at least Ishmael and Midian's tribes ended up, so it's consistent.

 

[frederick]

If this is referring to other concubines, then Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah received absolutely nothing from Abraham before he died, but some other random sons we know nothing about were treated better and received gifts from him. This just doesn't sound right. I think v6 is more likely telling us how he treated all his sons other than Isaac - which means that it is referring to Hagar and Keturah as the concubines. These sons were sent east, and that is where we know at least Ishmael and Midian's tribes ended up, so it's consistent.

That sounds reasonable. Thank you.