What constitutes a vow?

[steve]

Subtitle: is a marriage that does not include vows a vow?
Let’s not slip into the “What is a marriage” discussion, that’s been addressed elsewhere multiple times.

In Numbers 30 we are given the instruction that if a daughter in her father’s house makes a vow, it is his responsibility to decide whether it is to be honored in the day that he hears of it. Likewise if his wife makes a vow.
So here is the thing, we absolutely need a definition of what a vow is if we are going to provide any protection for them.

 

[steve]

My simplistic definition is that it an agreement.
Any agreement.
Granted that if your wife decides to buy a new Volvo, our present society doesn’t have the capacity to comprehend your responsibility to cancel the contract if you were to decide that it would have a negative effect upon the family finances.

More thoughts later, just wanted to get this discussion started.

 

[Edward]

My simplistic definition is that it an agreement.
Any agreement.

I would like to say thank you for opening up a good Sabbath study for us today. But I have to disagree with "any agreement" and here is why.
When you look at all the passages that have the slightly two different definitions of the word vow (vow h5087{30 verses} a vow h5088 {58 verses}). you will soon learn (correct me if I am wrong) that these are not vows one to another: man to man, woman to woman, man to woman, woman to man, so on and so forth. But you will learn that these are vows made to YaHWeH. Not once were any of these passages used between two individuals, which leads me to address your below comment.

Granted that if your wife decides to buy a new Volvo, our present society doesn’t have the capacity to comprehend your responsibility to cancel the contract if you were to decide that it would have a negative effect upon the family finances.

I agree that we don't want any negative effect on the family finances, but if my wife was to go out and buy a "new Volvo" it is not something done unto YaHWeH but to two individuals, which leads me to say we have to stand behind our word thus fulfilling [Mat 5:37 KJV] 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Me personally I believe if your wife is a YaH fearing wife, she will make her husband look good [Pro 31:23 KJV] 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. and [Pro 31:11-12 KJV] 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

And she also [Pro 31:16 KJV] 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. But she does it in a way that brings honor to her husband.

Now if she is foolish woman she just might make foolish choices, such as purchasing a "new Volvo". Now if we can't really afford a new car, I might take her and the car back to the dealership and say hey we can't afford this, I would like to return it. If I am correct and I am going by old memories here, when I used to buy new vehicles, I had a 3 day grace period to change my mind, after that it was a binding contract. And I would ask the dealership to honor that grace period, if it existed.

I hope this all makes sense.

 

[Mark C]

In Numbers 30 we are given the instruction that if a daughter in her father’s house makes a vow, it is his responsibility to decide whether it is to be honored in the day that he hears of it. Likewise if his wife makes a vow.
So here is the thing, we absolutely need a definition of what a vow is if we are going to provide any protection for them.

I would suggest that sometimes it is the intent that matters, there may thus be some subjectivity, and it is the prerogative - and imperative! - for the husband (or father) to discern and act.

So perhaps what should be asked in addition, is "how do we RECOGNIZE a 'vow' - by any name - that might be important to 'cast down'?

So - I will suggest that part of the answer is the use of terms or thought processes that DESCRIBE an imperative that might bind or subject the woman or girl to 'another master.'

For example, if I hear an exclamation that begins "I will NEVER..." - my ears perk up. It sure sounds like what follows might need to be examined, even cast down.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So @Edward started at the right place, he looked up the word and found that there are different kinds of vows. Numbers 30 is a vow to God, but @steve ’s question is not about Numbers 30, it’s about what vows are so we can understand Numbers 30. So it sounds like we need to focus on nadar H5087.

 

[Mark C]

Numbers 30 says more than just 'nadar' - it uses the word OR, and says that if he swears to "bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."

The woman, too, when she 'vows' or "uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul" - may or may NOT be bound, depending on the conditions outlined, and her husband (or father's) action.

I will contend, again, that a man who cares to cover his wife or daughter, when it comes to things he believes - and HE IS THE ONE WHO IS HELD RESPONSIBLE - is who determines what she shouldn't outta said.

 

[FollowingHim]

So @Edward started at the right place, he looked up the word and found that there are different kinds of vows. Numbers 30 is a vow to God, but @steve ’s question is not about Numbers 30, it’s about what vows are so we can understand Numbers 30. So it sounds like we need to focus on nadar H5087.

And neder H5058.

And he's right. I can't find any example of a vow being made to a person. I've looked at Strong's categorisation of what it means and checked verses in each category, and looked at a random selection of others. Every vow is to God.

Now, this relates to marriage if marriage is a vow to God - it it is Holy Matrimony formed by vows as per Christian (Catholic) tradition - but that is not a position that any of us would hold any more.

 

[FollowingHim]

Which means, that marriage CAN at least involve a vow. If you vow to God to do whatever, you are bound by that vow. So if you vow to God to treat this woman in such and such a way, you are bound by that vow (unless forgiven of it). That does not mean that the vow is "marriage", but it does mean that the conditions of the relationship you have with that woman include the fact that you have a vow to honour as part of the mix.

But it does not mean that marriage IS a vow, so verses discussing vows would not be relevant to a marriage that was begun without vows.

Unless someone can find evidence of something other than a verbal statement constituting a vow.

 

[Edward]

And neder H5058

I think you have a typo, this one is talking about music. I think you really wanted H5088 and if you want to delete this comment after you fix it, that is ok

 

[Edward]

Numbers 30 says more than just 'nadar' - it uses the word OR, and says that if he swears to "bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."

The woman, too, when she 'vows' or "uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul" - may or may NOT be bound, depending on the conditions outlined, and her husband (or father's) action.

I will contend, again, that a man who cares to cover his wife or daughter, when it comes to things he believes - and HE IS THE ONE WHO IS HELD RESPONSIBLE - is who determines what she shouldn't outta said.

You are correct concerning the word sware BUT there is a difference between vow and sware. A vow is something you make ONLY to YaHWeH, like I pointed out in my above comment. The word sware is a little different, that word YaHWeH can sware unto us... Gen 24:7 KJV 7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware[H7650] unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

And we can sware one to another... Gen 21:31 KJV 31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware[H7650] both of them.

I would also like to point out and correct me if I am wrong, in this list of verses there is not one mentioned of a woman swearing, woman to woman, woman to man or woman to YaHWeH. We do have an example of a woman vowing to YaHWeH... 1Sa 1:11 KJV - 11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

But I have not seen one for sware.

And before people jump down my back about the word sware being misspelled, I hope you notice it is King James. I swear

 

[steve]

So does anybody honestly think that Yah was saying; “Any vow made to Me can be nullified by the father or husband of a female, but no vows made to any other beings, human or otherwise, are subject to a male’s supervision.”?

Because that’s what y’all are claiming.

 

[MeganC]

is a marriage that does not include vows a vow?

Yes, it is.

A woman's family agrees to have her live with a man and his family. There is no formal wedding but it's understood the woman is eventually going to be the man's plural wife.

One fine evening the man of the house beds the woman and she becomes his wife. No spoken vow or formal ceremony is involved yet the marriage exists all the same.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So does anybody honestly think that Yah was saying; “Any vow made to Me can be nullified by the father or husband of a female, but no vows made to any other beings, human or otherwise, are subject to a male’s supervision.”?

Because that’s what y’all are claiming.

That appears to be what the text says.

 

[steve]

That appears to be what the text says.

It does, if you ignore what @Mark C wrote.

If something in Scripture doesn’t seem to make sense, I have found that it is our understanding that is somehow at fault.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It does, if you ignore what @Mark C wrote.

If something in Scripture doesn’t seem to make sense, I have found that it is our understanding that is somehow at fault.

Well I’ve been credibly accused of that more than once….

Still, we have to be careful that it’s not our preconditions that are making it appear to not make sense.

 

[MeganC]

If something in Scripture doesn’t seem to make sense, I have found that it is our understanding that is somehow at fault.

My own practice in Bible study is when some verse or Chapter doesn't make sense to me I go and read the whole Book or Letter to get a better grasp of the overall message. Then the intent of the author usually becomes clear to me.