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What good is polygamy? Questions and accusations we get

my point is simply that they can be refuted to the point where somebody who doesn't want to believe them is happy that they think they've been refuted adequately

If someone is disposed to be satisfied with whatever they believe then there is no persuasion, or even really refutation. There isn't even real discussion that case.


Don't bother debating these, we could do that all day and achieve nothing, because my point is not whether these arguments are strong or weak (we can certainly pick holes in them), the point is that these counters can be made and make the debater feel happy that he has so easily shown your ideas to be wrong (in his mind).

Once again, you're not having a discussion with someone, they're telling you what they believe, and you're saying 'ok, believe what you want'.


The way Cecil stated his case was a little weak, and he emphasized the wrong portion of the scripture. How about this:

2) Does God tempt men to sin? James 1:17(?) says no. You agree? But in 2Sam 12, God claimed he would have given David more wives if he wanted them, plural. Ergo, it wasn't wrong for David to accept, and would not be wrong for us.

God wouldn't offer something evil. Nor would he require it, as you said with the law of the levitate.

In the punishment there are no options given, and punishments are not a measurement of right and wrong. God raises armies to destroy Isreal when they sin, though those armies are not righteous. It is also worth noting that Absolom took only Davids concubines, though that is not a useful debate point with the uninitiate :).

It is true to say that in addressing a crime you are allowed to act in ways you normally wouldn't, such as you can stone someone as punishment though you cannot in normal everyday life. However the problem in Deuteronomy 21 is that one wife is hated, not that two wives are there. It is a regulation, not a punitive law. There is no punishment, there is only a statement that he may not change the normal course of inheritance.


Weather or not he's 'heavily theological' he's a bit philosophically shallow in this case, and either he or you are shallow in being happy with something that persuades him in his own mind.
 
Tlaloc said:
Weather or not he's 'heavily theological' he's a bit philosophically shallow in this case, and either he or you are shallow in being happy with something that persuades him in his own mind.

Nothing wrong with FollowingHim, except perhaps to learn a few more comebacks that others of us have learned and/or refined over a number of years. We all learn something new every so often here.

For example, I've never considered the 2Sam12 argument weak. Still don't. Didn't have a good answer, however, to this objection.

Now I feel I do. If someone gets hung up on the idea that David's wives (concubines) are going to be "given" to another as punishment, and that David received Saul's wives as punishment towards Saul, the point remains that the wives WE specifically know about -- Micah, Abigail, etc. -- were NOT from that source, and God IS clearly saying here that He'd of been glad to give MORE if needed Instead of sidetracking, I would stay with the point that God had NO problem with David's multiple wives, and claimed to have provided them. His ONLY problem was with the WRONGFUL METHOD of acquiring THIS one!
 
Ooo! Ooo! Coupla hours later ...

Could we turn the "David's wives would be taken and given to another" objection into an actual support?

Are we agreed that God's judgment upon David was a PUNISHMENT? That He wasn't saying He'd take David's wives and give them to another by way of REWARD?

Can we further agree that when you administer punishment via deprivation, you take away something GOOD? Not something bad? Healing someone, removing an illness from them, would not be a punishment. Making them go without food may well be -- especially if it is my wife's carrot cake!

Agreed? Bingo! David's wives (plural) were, by definition, a good thing -- if removing them constituted punishment rather than reward!

So original argument remains intact, does it not? I've no problem with Tlaloc's wording. I merely think that it was strong enough in original form. God WOULDA given David more? Fair 'nuff. But He didn't. The story is, arguably, that He HAD, and David had ACCEPTED, and was not wrong to do so.

Ok, that's my idea anyway. I like the idea of trapping the opponent with their own argument. Ah-HAH! Punishment involved removing a GOOD thing! ...
 
I don't think followinghim is shallow, though being satisfied with someone being happy with whatever they think is.

I only changed the wording of what you said because your topic was temptation. If you're talking temptation then the fact that God actually said he could have had more (future tense) is more important. You're right that I jumped the gun calling the argument weak though.

Though I suppose one weakness of leaning on 2 Sam 12 is that Abigail, Michah, ect where not really being referenced in this verse, as it's specifically talking about Saul's wives.

I do generally agree with the line of thinking in your second post.
 
Everyone is doing a great job on these. Great responses! I would like to hear more!

Blessings,

Doc
 
Tlaloc and Cecil, great posts on those two issues. As I said, we can pick holes all through these objections, and the original arguments still stand, so I actually agree with both of you.

My point was that Cecil was suggesting ways of countering somebody who is questioning you. I think in this specific case we need to pose questions that immediately show the listener that PM is acceptable to God, because the sort of person who will ask the questions that have been discussed in this thread WILL normally have a shallow view of the issue and WILL already be very comfortable with their current position. We need to be able to shake their views to the core with a single sentence, in a way that they cannot readily debate.

I personally think that once a debate starts, you've lost the argument, because even if you persuade them to admit you've got the better argument, generally you won't actually change their opinion. "A man persuaded against his will is of the same opinion still" or however the saying goes. So we can use the excellent points both of you have come up with - but this sort of discussion is usually in vain sadly, with most people anyway.

How can we shake the disbelieving Christian's views in one sentence so hard that they go away and reevaluate their views themself? Because it is only when they actually want to find out what is right that they will be persuaded.

I've found the Levirate marriage argument to be the most effective so far. Cecil's suggestion about providing for widows is a great one as it will get people thinking! What else is there?
 
Nearly the first thing out of God's mouth during creation week, when every word He uttered instantly became natural law, was, "It is NOT GOOd for mankind to be alone."

Everything from a monogamist viewpoint is fine with that SO LONG AS the demographics are evenly matched and the matches find each other and are compatible. But they aren't. They aren't evenly matched -- there are more women than men at any marriageable age group. MThey are not evenly spread around the globe. Some are really screwed up.

Given this situation, what options are open to God?

** Do nothing. "I'm up here. You're down there. Figger it out!" Do we find that in nature or the bible?
** Oops. Change the natural law. Now it IS good to be alone. He SAID that His proclamation was good and right at the beginning, but it really wasn't. God fib. Aw shucks! Any record of that?
** Control the birth demographi8cs. Obviously hasn't done that.
** "Too many women. Some of y'all gots to GO! Any volunteers?" Hunh?
** "Not 'nuff men, but plenty7 o' mud. I'll make some extra." Some of us men claim we're being treated like dirt, but I don't think it's for real.
** Everybody get's born male, and when the time is right, you take a "nap". We wish!!
** Everybody is born hermaphrodite, and when you meet your true mate, one eats a fig, and the other a banana and some things fade.
** Everybody is born androgynous, and when you meet your true mate, one eats ... blah, blah, blah, ... and things develop.
** Hmmm what other possibilities ARE there? Preferably something less SciFi, and simple, and maybe something we actually SEE throughout both history and the Word. Oh! Wait a minute! i know! "You two, and you THREE! Play nice in your sandbox and make families!" That works! History and Bible both.
 
"Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of 'touching' a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it." G.K. Chesterton

It's not one line snippets that will win the day but the long hard slog of deep and true discussion and debate. If their will will not submit to their reason then they have other problems, but a man of God will let the Logos prevail, weather they like the outcome or not. It is the force of reason we must stand with, and that does mean debate. A full arsenal of lines that appeal to both mind and heart are needed. Even with a good opener such as levitate marriage, it is just an opener, you'll still have to have the debate.
 
Re: What good is polygamy? Questions and accusations we get/

Interesting discussion!

I think I know what may be going on here. It's all about what the accepted norms are, "the usual rules". Most communities and societies can accept a certain amount of straying from the rules, a certain level of departure from the accepted norms. After all, when you stray from the rules, you affirm those rules by the very act of failing to adhere to them, if you follow my logic.

So for example, in a monogamy-only society, a few people here and there may cheat on their spouses, but it is still a monogamous society. But when the norms themselves are challenged, when a group of people are playing by a different set of rules entirely, well that's quite another matter. That's a lot scarier for people. You tend to get some very visceral reactions.

It's a bit like a group of friends who agree to meet up in the local park, to play baseball. So they do that, and have a good time. One or two may bend the rules now and then, but they're still playing baseball. But if a small group of them were top say "Quite frankly, we'd rather play cricket, that wonderful English game. We're going to play that. " Then it's: "Hey, wait a minute! What's all this about cricket! I thought we agreed to play baseball! Don't you guys understand what we're doing here?"

So, you can bend the rules, or even break them from time to time--there'll always be a certain amount of that going on, human nature being what it is--but if you start playing a completely different game, then you going to get a reaction.

To put it another way, it depends on what "role" you're seen to be playing, on "Life's great stage". We don't judge all people the same way. For example, when people learn that Mick Jagger (the Rolling Stone lead singer) has children by various women, no-one lifts an eyebrow. He's a Stone! Of course he has children by various women. It would be a scandal if he didn't! But if your local pastor--or politician for that matter--were found in the same position, well, you can imagine the next morning's newspapers.

Similarly, an artist or poet could be openly polygamous (many have been) and this would be accepted, but the same rules don't normally apply to Christians. Different role, different game. Different expectations.

What the solution is for you guys, I really can't imagine, given that Christianity has been playing the monogamy-only game for quite a long time now.

Here's an abstract of a paper, which presents an interesting historical perspective (found via Google Scholar): http://gradworks.umi.com/MR/44/MR44008.html

The perception of polygamy in early modern England
by Loughead, Lisa Shirley, M.A., DALHOUSIE UNIVERSITY , 2008, 158 pages; MR44008

Abstract:

Monogamy is a distinctive aspect of the Christian tradition. Polygamy existed in most ancient societies, but Christian authorities opposed the practice, in part to distinguish monogamous Christianity from other faiths. By the early modern period, polygamy was rare in Christian Europe, and it had gained a negative reputation because of its association with sexual excess and lust. During the Reformation, however, certain individuals, including Luther himself, condoned polygamy, and Lutheran doctrine was compatible with plural marriage in some ways. After an ill-fated attempt to establish a polygamous community at Muenster, however, it became much more difficult to support polygamy, as the practice was further tainted by association with religious radicalism and lustful, degenerate behavior. During the English Revolution, the downfall of censorship and the tumultuous political climate allowed some English authors to write in support of plural marriage, using both practical and religious arguments. Yet, the majority of authors condemned the practice. Plural marriage continued to be associated with pagan and barbaric culture, and accusations of polygamy were used to undermine and discredit one's enemies. In the literature of travel and colonisation, accusations of polygamy were used to demean and vilify peoples such as Jews and Turks. The existence of polygamy in Europe's colonies helped Christian Europeans to maintain a sense of superiority over the pagan, barbaric indigenous inhabitants and helped to establish a shared European and Christian identity. In the writings of the Reformation and the Revolution, along with the literature of travel and colonisation, polygamy became a boundary marker between Christians and non-Christians, Catholics and Protestants, radicals and non-radicals, civilised countries and barbaric countries, and England and its colonies. Polygamy's function as a boundary marker, more than any theological reasons, was the reason why plural marriage did not gain significant support in early modern England.---

Ryenwine
 
Devil really HATES polygamy, doesn't he? Causes us to MULTIPLY instead of barely MAINTAIN, and, of course, his whole purpose is to kill, steal, and destroy -- humans.

Has delighted him to use twisted Christianity against God. Our job in these last days is to use BIBLE Christianity to run a scorched earth war on him. No quarter to the devil. In this or any other area! I've come to see that we've been having mercy on him for far too long by failing to actively pursue and destroy all his works wherever found. Instead we should have mercy on each other and utterly pitiless towards him!
 
Tlaloc said:
It's not one line snippets that will win the day but the long hard slog of deep and true discussion and debate. If their will will not submit to their reason then they have other problems, but a man of God will let the Logos prevail, weather they like the outcome or not. It is the force of reason we must stand with, and that does mean debate. A full arsenal of lines that appeal to both mind and heart are needed. Even with a good opener such as levitate marriage, it is just an opener, you'll still have to have the debate.
Most people aren't deeply theological. This site is a collection of like minds who can discuss things on this level, but your average Christian is so heavily indoctrinated in the notion that polygyny is a grave sin that it is very difficult to change their minds through theological debate. They'd more happily believe their pastor than their Bibles, although they wouldn't put it that way.

Yes, there will always be debate. But if you debate a hard-hearted adversary who has no interest in your point of view, you'll have little success. It is only where you have rapidly managed to shake their beliefs that you will have any hope of succeeding.

That is why we need firm points that rapidly change people's views. Not in the belief that we can magically change their mind in one sentence, not to avoid debate, but to facilitate SUCCESSFUL debate.

And then you can use your deeper knowledge of scripture to hopefully bring that potential success to fruition.
 
No, most people are taught they are far dumber than they really are. When someone tries to back down from a conversation on the grounds that its too 'deep' or complex for them I will tell them they are underestimating themselves. Shallowness is one of many shields from the trouble of having ones views examined, and it is a disrespectable one. Know who you're talking to, re-state things in a way they can relate to, and then they will find they are quite a lot deeper than they thought they where.

But it takes a cretin kind of callousness to get there. You see most people are systematically intimidated out of believing they can understand deep things. They are stereotyped and pigeonholed and put into a box that is useful to 'society'. That normally doesn't require someone to think deep thoughts, in fact deep thoughts are routinely a threat to the status quo. So, when they say they can't or don't understand it takes a callous 'of course you do, you understand this, and that, now put them together'. It takes ignoring their shield and claims of shallowness and making them engage in a proper discussion.

Most people are deep, but are afraid to let it show. I've been down that road many times now. The only time someone is not deep is when they deliberately block that part of themselves off because they don't like the road their own depth would take them.

And with theology we have another layer to the problem. Discussing theology is bad manners in North American society. It is a culture of believe what you want and the only real wrong is 'intolerance'. Talking theology means talking about who's beliefs are right and who's are wrong. That is unacceptable in our society.

The real trick is that nothing in Polygamy-Theology is really very 'deep', its actually very straightforward. The cognitive dissonance between what the modern church allows and what God allowed is more of a problem to someones belief system than anything we can throw out. We just have to aggravate that already-existing awareness, and get rid of the junk theology and philosophy against us.


My point is that we must be prepared to engage people on a deep level, we're not televangelists out for their wallets. We want their very mind and heart with us, we don't need the zingers that theo-salesmen rely on. We need long impassioned discussion.
 
Tlaloc said:
My point is that we must be prepared to engage people on a deep level, we're not televangelists out for their wallets. We want their very mind and heart with us, we don't need the zingers that theo-salesmen rely on. We need long impassioned discussion.
Well said. My point is simply that if we choose our openers wisely we can help to define the discussion from the outset, so it becomes an impassioned discussion rather than an aggressive debate - as it is the former that will move into true deep theological discussion and changed minds, while the latter will usually only entrench preexisting biases more strongly.

Maybe if I'd had a more impressive opener to our wee sub-discussion in this thread I would have changed your mind days ago :D
 
In any conflict self-control is paramount. Even if your opponent becomes aggravated as long as you can keep control of your own emotions you can control the conversation. If they go aggressive it costs them their focus, and as long as you're centered you can readily deflect whatever they throw at you. If that can be manadged an aggressive debate is not a bad thing, it gives a chance to come off cool and collected or to land critical blows to the way they think.

We only lose when they retreat. And they retreat very often.

And I'm not sure you're getting my point. No opener would have changed my mind, I'm not very susceptible to such things. A good opener is fine, but you need good moves the whole way through. Patience, Self-Control, Wisdom, and Compassion are paramount. Losing the opener is not losing the fight, and very often you don't need to open the conflict at all. Poly comes up enough that often the discussion gets opened by the opposition.

With the amount people run from this convo once it gets heated a good closer that makes them think afterwords is almost more important.
 
I do hereby profoundly opine ... :lol:

That a happy and matter-of-fact EXAMPLE will do far more than all of our arguments to get folks to relax long enough to actually hear us; that their first knee-jerk reaction is driven by FEAR.

Defuse the fear, and they stand a chance to get comfortable enought to consider instead of fight.

It therefore follows that our prayer needs to be, "God, please make me a successful EXAMPLE! Not for my glory, but Thine!"
 
It would seem that as you include single moms and their children in your own family activities at every opportunity, (picnics, holidays, swim park, movie/popcorn night, whatever,) even without teaching, one or more may come ti "fit in" so comfortably that they simply become family.

It seems to me that THAT would be the point to say, "Why bother going home?", so to speak. "You are already family. Would you like to make it permanent?" or perhaps "complete?"

Perhaps nothing need be said in the meantime. *shrug* I dunno. Or perhaps teach on marriage and family, and when it comes to the PM passages, teach primarily that the instruction, reproof, etc. contained therein is on the evils of favoritism -- towards wives or children either one. If they ask about PM, what could it hurt to simply shrug and say, "Can't find anything Biblically against it. The prohibition entered the church via paganism several hundred years after Christ. Looks to me as though it might be God's perfect provision for an imperfect world, in that it allows EVERY Godly woman to have a Godly husband, even though there are less Godly men around." ... then move on.

Rather than having them wonder what your ulterior motive is for teaching on THAT odd topic, Wouldn't it better to have THEM sputtering and dragging you back it, claiming that they weren't DONE asking about it? *chuckling*
 
CecilW said:
I do hereby profoundly opine ... :lol:

That a happy and matter-of-fact EXAMPLE will do far more than all of our arguments to get folks to relax long enough to actually hear us; that their first knee-jerk reaction is driven by FEAR.

Defuse the fear, and they stand a chance to get comfortable enought to consider instead of fight.

It therefore follows that our prayer needs to be, "God, please make me a successful EXAMPLE! Not for my glory, but Thine!"

Yes, thats exactly right. Fear is the primary motivator. Unfortunately it's not easy to be an example of poly when its hard to find a suitable second wife. Still, my wife wanting it has been a great example to others by herself. She's quite passionate about the topic.
 
cecil you made the comment about including a single woman and her children in family activities and she may become family. That is something that my friends have said to me. Things like he can be a father figure and help provide for her but why does he have to sleep with her. people have even said charity doesn't happen in the bedroom. What is your take on this
 
woodysgang said:
he can be a father figure and help provide for her but why does he have to sleep with her
My response would be, why must he NOT sleep with her?

I am quite happy for a man to support a woman in any way that God leads, and provide for the real needs she has. Sure you can go chop up some firewood for a single mum or take her kids out for a day to give her a hand, and maybe that's all she needs. But you can also marry her. God has Christian men to provide for His daughters' EVERY need. Who is the Church to limit God and say that we can only provide for her physical needs but not her needs for intimacy as well?
 
Cow fam said:
I find it odd that people presume the man should take all the responsibility and get none of the benefits of this situation.

Does one provide charity to receive something in return?

This statement confuses me.

B
 
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