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Why did God allow polygamy - side discussion

steve

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Admin note: This discussion was moved from this thread, follow the link for the preceding context. Note ends.

Excellent
I have long said that all women have the right to be married, but not all males have that right.

A woman can choose to grow and fit and follow, but some males just cannot become leaders by choosing to.
 
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Excellent
I have long said that all women have the right to be married, but not all males have that right.

A woman can choose to grow and fit and follow, but some males just cannot become leaders by choosing to.
I don’t buy this premise. Not all men will take the steps necessary to lead, and by the same token not all women will take the steps necessary to follow.

I thought the video was great! I do think that God provided polygyny so that women can find a man who will lead them in following Christ. But, do we have to use the phrase “empowering women”?? :p
 
not all women will take the steps necessary to follow.
I didn’t say that all women will automatically make good wives.
It’s about the ability to choose. A woman has the ability to choose to follow headship, to submit to proper leadership.
A male cannot simply choose to be a good leader, he has to learn how to be one and successfully practice it.
 
I didn’t say that all women will automatically make good wives.
It’s about the ability to choose. A woman has the ability to choose to follow headship, to submit to proper leadership.
A male cannot simply choose to be a good leader, he has to learn how to be one and successfully practice it.

That is a lot softer than

I have long said that all women have the right to be married, but not all males have that right.

Some have the right to marry and some don’t? Who gets to decide who has that right? If a male who doesn’t “have that right”gets married, should someone take his wife away?

Scripture says:
Genesis 2:18 KJV
[18] And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

1 Corinthians 7:9 KJV
[9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Kinda seems like having a pulse is the main prerequisite, after that we answer to God for how we fulfill our roles.

Leadership can take time to learn. So can submission, and some simply won’t. We’re all growing and learning. Were you a rocking good leader right out of the gate? Who gave you the “right” to marry? Using the term “right” seems heavy handed.

Edit: it just seems a little too FLDS compound-esc to me

Edit: sorry VV76, didn’t mean to fire bomb your post. The video is great! Please feel free to move or remove my posts on this thread.
 
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Some have the right to marry and some don’t? Who gets to decide who has that right?
In a Biblicaly lived society the fathers decide who has the right to marry their daughters. If no father is willing to give his daughter to a male of low intelligence, effeminate or lazy, hot tempered or given to drink, he cannot claim the right to have a wife. In monogamy-only, some girl has to settle for the jerk or go without.
A less-than-stellar female can be absorbed into a larger household and given the amount of responsibility that she can handle.

I made the point, not to start an argument but to point out an additional reason that polygyny is necessary. I don’t believe that Isaiah 4:1 is about the lack of males, but about the lack of real men “in that day”.
 
In a Biblicaly lived society the fathers decide who has the right to marry their daughters. If no father is willing to give his daughter to a male of low intelligence, effeminate or lazy, hot tempered or given to drink, he cannot claim the right to have a wife. In monogamy-only, some girl has to settle for the jerk or go without.
A less-than-stellar female can be absorbed into a larger household and given the amount of responsibility that she can handle.

I made the point, not to start an argument but to point out an additional reason that polygyny is necessary. I don’t believe that Isaiah 4:1 is about the lack of males, but about the lack of real men “in that day”.

Fathers making that decision would be a valid method of deciding that. However, I don’t think anyone can demand a “right to marry” it’s more so you can marry if you can find someone who will marry you.

What about female psychopaths? Have you ever had the misfortune of dealing with one? Do they have a right to marry?
 
This is not about creating rules about who does or does not get to marry.

I am trying to get people’s heads past the monogamistic idea that every guy who desires a wife gets one.
With the added competition of polygyny, women don’t have to settle for what is left over. More guys left on the sidelines than previously.
Wives are not a participation trophy, you have to actually earn the right to be considered.
 
I believe that God created the institution of marriage to reveal the relationship He wants with each one of us, Him the husband, we the bride. If a section of society is unmarriable wouldn't that be an example of a limitation on that analogy? Being marriable is the responsiblity of the individual, man or woman. It is a competition, and therefore an effort. Those men who have a closer relationship to God, receive the women who themselves have a closer relationship to God. And it appears that at some point in God's plan, there will be less men and more women to fill the categories for marriage.
 
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[QUOTE='ssteve, post: 167703, member: 216"]I didn’t say that all women will automatically make good wives.
It’s about the ability to choose. A woman has the ability to choose to follow headship, to submit to proper leadership.
A male cannot simply choose to be a good leader, he has to learn how to be one and successfully practice it.[/QUOTE]
@steve -- you're making his @Asforme&myhouse's point for him, dear brother!
CHOICE is the fulcrum here.

The woman has a choice to marry or not to marry (as long as we're not in one of these unfortunate weird settings where the dad is arranging for the marriage when the girl is born, or enters puberty, etc.) IF she chooses to marry because she is allowed that choice, she STILL must choose whether she will become a "good" wife or not. Will she learn to yield, to follow, etc. IF she wasn't allowed to make the choice of WHO she marries, the choice is still hers to learn to yield and follow in the midst of missing out on whom she marries.

The man may be a brick short when it comes to leadership, patience, spirituality, understanding--and the list could go on. However, he IS under the headship of Christ and has as much access to Scripture and Holy Spirit guidance as does any woman. Suppose he didn't have a dad growing up OR a very poor role model of a dad to point him in the right direction of manhood or to train him. That doesn't excuse him any more than it does a woman who may have had parallel dynamics in her childhood. They shouldn't be written off because for sure YHWH doesn't write them off. He realizes they're coming from way behind and need more help than most and is particularly and peculiarly interested in helping conform them to the image of His dear son so they CAN enjoy the fulness He inteneded and envisioned when He created Adam and Eve.

IMO, the difference in society is that men know they can do the dance, flash their tail feathers, promise the moon, sing the song, throw money around--to get the woman to "fall in love" with his rodeo. For some men, this actually becomes their focus--how can they best impress that female--instead of developing what's going to be needed after the big lights go down as far as character, leadership, work ethic, and personal relationship with his Lord GOD. Hollywood, romance books, and peer pressure foster this type of mentality. I'm sure the same parallel could be drawn for young ladies. They're all concerned about their makeup, the statement their clothing makes to the guy, being popular, learning to play the hard-to-get game, etc. instead of honing their skills to be the dietician of the home, the mother of babies, the interior decorator of her king's palace, developing a love relationship with her Lord GOD so that she will know how to love her man.

CHOICE is the crux of this. Praise God, it's never too late to make better choices, different choices from the past as long as you're still breathing. Poor choices may have done a lot of damage, sometimes irreparable, but the learning curve seldom ends unless you CHOOSE not to learn any more and decide that you're just done with the whole mess of humanity.
 
@rejoicinghandmaid , choice is not the fulcrum with my statement.
The guy either is or is not adequate. Yes, he can and should grow, but the woman that marries an inadequate male hoping to see him grow into an adequate man is making a big mistake that may cause her to suffer for the rest of her life. And it may very well be abusive for her progeny.

If, however, a family were to take on a second wife that has problems of one sort or another, it wouldn’t necessarily ruin anyone’s life. A pregnancy would, of course, be inadviseable until stability is realized.
 
But, do we have to use the phrase “empowering women”?? :p

@Asforme&myhouse--you might have just "stepped in it"! SQUISH--oops!!!

Feel free to throw my 2 cents worth away when you're done reading this, but the word "empower" in any dynamic is very powerful. Please consider these concepts. Keep in mind that empowerment leads but also gives CHOICES.
1.) To not empower is to enslave
2.) One who is not empowered has no impetus to participate willingly
3.) Human beings blossom under the sunshine of empowerment and wither to death without it
4.) It costs little to afford empowerment yet nets colossal dividends in the end
5.) One of the most effective methods of leadership is to empower those under you

You're going to see me consistently drawing parallels with my anecdotal example to that of the home/marriage/husband-wife relationship regarding empowerment.

I delight to empower every student who enters my classroom, no matter the age, nor duration for which that student may remain in my tutelage (I work with students ranging fron K-5 through adulthood--and there's no cap on that end.) If someone walks through my door, I know God sent them. He that findeth a wife findeth a good thing. Immediately I begin seeking His guidance and wisdom as to just how He envisions me touching that individual's life for His honor and glory. I must begin to "learn" that student. Dwell together with them according to knowledge. Then I must see beyond where they are and see them as my Savior sees them--their potential, their God-given talents and strengths. I must start where they are but begin teaching to their potential. Ephesians 5:24-29 spells this concept out in the context of marriage in husband to wife.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Students coming to me from the government schools (some private schools and even some home schools) seldom know what it's like to have a teacher who really cares about them OR cares that they learn. They've often shut down, are afraid to ask even the simplest of questions, and have absolutely no self-confidence that they can learn or have any self-worth. I must win their confidence, which in turn wins their heart, and establishes trust that they are in a safe place that nurtures them. I do all of this because that is what Yeshua does for each of us when we first turn to Him for salvation. TRUST is established. I'm willing to spend as much effort and time as is needed to lay those footings for the foundation that I'm getting ready to pour for their academic structure. They are expected to function within the guidelines of the classroom which are in place for everyone else's safety and security. Infractions are dealt with kindly, immediately, but firmly with a clear explanation of what went wrong, how it could have been done correctly, and with assurance that I have confidence they will do better next time. We are always in a face-to-face dialogue. I let them see my disappointment with their behavior, my smile as I talk of how it should have been handled, and my joy in what I anticipate from them in coming days. I'm vulnerable but always optomistic. I'm empowering them to make choices. I'm teaching them to fish and confidently trusting them to begin fishing with the tools I'm handing them. It's often the first time this has happened in their lives, because many homes aren't even doing this, let alone the government educational zoos. The fear of failure, not being loved, not being able to ask questions, never being given space to learn without judgment--all of that begins to melt away under the Son's rays of love. I see their countenances begin to change, their body language begins to change, and it won't be long until I see them actively begin to participate in their journey of learning, and then they begin to love it! It's "Katie bar the door" once that happens because that inner drive and desire and thirst of knowledge, success, and achievement that's in every human being kicks in, and there's no holding them back. I didn't demand, command, verbally beat into submission, threaten, coerce, or kick them to the curb. I empowered them by believing in them, accepting them for who they were, and invited them to join me in the adventure of learning. It doesn't take them long to realize I've handed them the baton and am willing to run the race with them. It's thrilling beyond words when you see a student make that turn.

You've got to know my perspective. When I began teaching in Christian schools in 1974 corporal punishment was still considered acceptable by most administrations and encouraged in educational seminars. We were always being instructed on how to hand out the demerits and lists of infractions for which demerits could be earned. Then slowly the social temperature began to change in the courts and corporal punishment has all but disappeared from the educational scene today. Gradually the idea of merits AND demerits began to be promoted. I continued to control my classroom with the demerit system because that was the most tangible method of correction plus detentions after school. I was totally dissatisied with the results and the rat race that ensued with tracking and keeping up with all of that. So about 9 years ago I decided to experiment in my Summer School session with a "no demerit" classroom. I put rewards out in front of the students and warned that if they didn't appreciate the idea of having a "no demerit" classroom, I would be forced to put some back in place. I empowered them with that choice. They stepped up and loved it! For 3 summers I tested that approach--it never failed. When the next school year started I'd step right back into the demerit/merit combination system and eventually wonder why I ever had, once I got a few weeks into the school year. There was always this fear that it wouldn't work with a larger group of students which was always the case for the school year compared to the Summer School sessions.

Last year I ran the entire year with NO demerits in place, merits able to be earned at multiple levels, and finished one of the most successful years I've had in 35 years of teaching with ACE. Yes, there were times when I had to deal with infractions, but it was done without corporal punishment, detention, or demerits. I just finished the first week of this new year. My student roster has doubled from last year so there are many new students who've never seen how an ACE classroom is supposed to operate. However, laying the groundwork, establishing guidelines and rules, assuring them that I do love them and will deal with infractions, but giving them the opportunity to join in the learning journey with freedom and empowerment has set the stage for another great year--that may just top last year!

Empowering a wife to make positive and mature choices doesn't mean you're not in control as the head or that you're a weak leader. IMHO, it says the exact opposite. You're not just a man who's taken a wife, you're THE MAN who knows how to lead, guide, direct, love, bring along gently, lovingly, patiently because you know in the end you're going to have a crown jewel that is polished and will shine with the brilliance of God's light. She will not only reflect her Saviour's light, she will reflect your Saviour's light flowing through you to her also. I know it's a risk one takes when choosing to empower another, but you couldn't pay me to ever step back into the classrooms which were once controlled by corporal punishment, detentions, and demerits with a master/slave mentality. I do believe in correct methods of corporal discipline with a parent/child relationship because Scripture teaches it. However, as a teacher, I'm not that student's parent. As a husband, you're not your wife's dad.

Okay, I'm done--so you can crumple this up and throw it away if you choose--I've just empowered you! :) I do hope I've given you some food for thought on which to meditate. Blessings!
 
@rejoicinghandmaid , choice is not the fulcrum with my statement.
The guy either is or is not adequate. Yes, he can and should grow, but the woman that marries an inadequate male hoping to see him grow into an adequate man is making a big mistake that may cause her to suffer for the rest of her life. And it may very well be abusive for her progeny.

If, however, a family were to take on a second wife that has problems of one sort or another, it wouldn’t necessarily ruin anyone’s life. A pregnancy would, of course, be inadviseable until stability is realized.
I don’t know what culture you are living in but in American/western culture a woman has an equal if not greater ability to utterly destroy the entire household, especially in PM.
 
I don’t know what culture you are living in but in American/western culture a woman has an equal if not greater ability to utterly destroy the entire household, especially in PM.
Not as a second wife.
 
I believe that God created the institution of marriage to reveal the relationship He wants with each one of us, Him the husband, we the bride. If a section of society is unmarriable wouldn't that be an example of a limitation on that analogy?
Could be, but all analogies fail at some point. I don’t read that much into it. Besides, many will fail to make the Bride.
 
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