Why?

[macike]

Premise: Multi wives is okay with bible and not a sin.

Question: Why do it?

I am thinking of all the problems and all the hassles and all the problems.

My situation: There is a single mom who is 31yo. And she is fine with and wants to do this. I am okay. First wife is okay.


The question I have is Why? Why do it. Why place yourself and families in a larger hassle and problems.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Why evangelize with the gospel? Does it not cause trouble? Is living for Christ not going to cause persecution? All of these questions are teleological or consequentialist driven. Of course it is understandable for us to examine the consequences but that is the minor question. The major question is one of God's love working through and his call on our lives to glorify him. Just as Christ did not have to die to pay for our sins, as it was just and righteous for him to let all of us die in our sins, yet he chose to do so because of unmerited love and favor. Likewise, as men living as did Christ it may be more of a hassle, it may cause us more grief, pain, struggles, and even heartache as it requires us to give more, learn more, work more, grow more, develop in our character more, and thus to live like Christ means to sacrifice like Christ did even though he did not have to give of himself for a people who would often cause him grief and heartache. Thus, it boils down to love and calling as that is the ultimate issue in why anyone should chose to take to oneself any lady as Christ chose to take to himself his bride which is composed of multiple members.

 

[Doc]

Why join the army? There are plenty of other people who could sign up and defend their country.

Why be a cop? You get no respect, the hours are atrocious, and there is tremendous risk.

Why be a teacher? The pay stinks, the kids don't appreciate you, and parents criticize you.

Why be a preacher? People question your calling, accuse you of leading people astray, and stealing money.

Why be a missionary? You are wasting your talent on people who won't remember you, and you are abandoning your family and friends back home.

Why be a mother? Kids are a pain to deliver, they are messy, and expensive.

Why be a father? You work long hours to support your family, you get to spend little time with them, and you are often ridiculed and satirized in today's culture.

Why pursue plural marriage? Well, first of all, you do it because you are CALLED. Not everyone is called to serve in the military, to be a teacher, a missionary, or even a mother. But those that are called to those areas of service, will be unfulfilled in their walk with God, and with life in general, if that refuse that calling.

You may or may not be called to plural marriage; not everyone is. There are many people in monogamous relationships that should have remained single, but felt cultural or familial pressure to 'get married'; they weren't called to it!

This is something you and the Lord will have to work out in your own heart. However, a missionary feels a call in his heart to serve the Lord beyond his own culture, and then God presents the need to him. In your own case, God has shown you the truth of plural marriage, and has already shown you someone who could benefit from your protection and provision.

Could it be God has ALREADY called you?

Blessings

Doc

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

doc wrote:

Why pursue plural marriage? Well, first of all, you do it because you are CALLED.

While doing research for my Doctoral Dissertation, I found that in the evangelical churches, there are approximately three women for every two men. (Some of the women are in a relationship with a man who does not attend church, and a few of the men are in a relationship with a woman who does not attend.)

In the evangelical churches, according to Josh McDowell, 91% of our kids leave after graduating from high school. The rate for kids being raised by single moms is nearly 100%, and for kids with two parents (biological, adoptive, or step), somewhat less.

Ephesians 6:4 NKJV And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. (emphasis mine)

God has specifically tasked fathers with the responsibility for the training up of kids. Not mothers, not the schools, not the Pastor, and not the Sunday School teacher. The fathers. These others can help (except for the public schools,) and the mother is specifically tasked with being the father's "helper," (see Genesis 2:18) but it is the father's responsibility.

But 79% of mothers who are between 18-22 years old in evangelical churches are single. That means their kids have no father to "bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord." Many of those young single moms live with their own single mother, and often, they all live with her mother's single mother as well. Two, three, sometimes even four generations in one household, and no father to bring up the kids in the training and admonition of the Lord. That is not the system designed by our loving Heavenly Father. That is the result of the monogamy-only family structure that was designed by the goddess-worshiping Greco-Roman pagan religious system, enacted into secular law in the Roman Empire, and adopted by the Roman Catholic Church - and which the RCC then called "christian" with absolutely no Scriptural justification whatsoever.

If God is calling you to do something about it (as He has called me - and He had to hit me over the head with a 2x4 to get my attention!) then this verse is for you:

James 1:27 NKJV Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

The Greek word for "widow" does not mean a woman whose man has died, but a woman who, for whatever reason (death, abandonment, divorce, never had one of her own in the first place, or any other reason) is without a man. Likewise, in the Greek, "orphan" is "fatherless," not "parentless" as we think of orphans. So the single moms and their kids are the "widows and orphans" of our society.

Oh...in the Greek, "visit" does not mean to go see them once or twice a month, or take the kids to a ball game or movie every other Saturday. It means to provide for them. As in be the kid's father, and take the single mom as your woman. ("Wife" for those of you who insist on using what Dr. Allen calls the copyrighted terminology of the world's corrupt marriage system.)

Has God called you to do this? Based on what you said in your post, IMHO, yes. But that is really between you and God, not you and me.

 

[ylop]

The question I have is Why? Why do it. Why place yourself and families in a larger hassle and problems.

Hi Macike.

You have an excellent point. For all of the fine and good theoretical arguments in favour of it, your question probably remains the largest single issue against it. Why set yourself against not only the world, but most of the Christian community?

The theoretical answer has already been addressed by previous posters. The practical answer however, is that you have to be really really really convinced you want to do it, and have counted the cost, otherwise you will be asking yourself why? after the fact; and then burning the life of that 31 yo, her family and your own. Why indeed?

Regards,

ylop

 

[Scarecrow]

We do it because it is the right thing to do. If someone is called to take additional wives by God then not to do so would seem a sin to me.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

This woman apparently loves you and needs you to be her husband, if you also love her it would be wrong to turn her away.

2 Ch 24:2-3 And Joash did what was right in the eyes of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada got for him two wives, and he had sons and daughters.

Although more socially acceptable at the time, Joash did WHAT WAS RIGHT in the eyes of God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luk 6:22-23 "Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

Those of the world will always scorn those doing the will of God. Jesus is the Word, and the scriptures are the Word of God. If we are reviled for following the Word of God it should be no surprise to us, nor should we shy away from doing so as if we are ashamed of the Word.

Luk 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Follow what God has put on your heart and trust in the Lord to accomplish His will - the good works He has begun in you.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

theoretical arguments in favour of it

I did not know sacrificial love was theory. I thought it was the reality of how Christ loves us and is the model for us to love others.

 

[CecilW]

The question I have is Why? Why do it. Why place yourself and families in a larger hassle and problems.

Ummmm, Amen to all the learned responses above. PLUS ...

It's more interesting than playing Monopoly or reading novels. So why not?

 

[macike]

It's more interesting than playing Monopoly or reading novels. So why not?

LOL. :lol:

Have to say yes on this one for sure.

 

[macike]

With Some serious snips.

Why join the army?
Why be a cop?
Why be a teacher?
Why be a preacher?
Why be a missionary?
Why be a mother?
Why be a father?
Could it be God has ALREADY called you?

Doc,
The problem with the suggestions you make in the why this or that. I can give good answers why to do any of those. I have done five of the list in my life. Are there negatives with each of them. Of course. ARe there good reasons not to do each of them, yes and you laid most of them out.

Perhaps your last commented answer is the positive reason.

chas

 

[macike]

We do it because it is the right thing to do. If someone is called to take additional wives by God then not to do so would seem a sin to me.
Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
This woman apparently loves you and needs you to be her husband, if you also love her it would be wrong to turn her away.

Scarecrow, over the past year(?) I have enjoyed reading your posts. Esp. the legal parts. So I thank you for your posts over that time. And no a slap down is not coming.

Love? We are at the point of discussing and seeing if this works. Do I have feelings, yes. Does it rise to the occasion of love? I am hoping so. I am still trying to clarify this in my ole' noggin. Love on her part? maybe. perhaps more of a maybe than on my part. Does she need a husband and protector? yes.
Eze 16:49 --- would seem that I could give money and or food and or helps without any permeant relationship.

2 Ch 24:2-3 And Joash did what was right in the eyes of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada got for him two wives, and he had sons and daughters.
Although more socially acceptable at the time, Joash did WHAT WAS RIGHT in the eyes of God.

Ok. Kinda like this one.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luk 6:22-23 "Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

Those of the world will always scorn those doing the will of God. Jesus is the Word, and the scriptures are the Word of God. If we are reviled for following the Word of God it should be no surprise to us, nor should we shy away from doing so as if we are ashamed of the Word.

Luk 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Follow what God has put on your heart and trust in the Lord to accomplish His will - the good works He has begun in you.

As one who has been reviled many times for the Word. I have no problems with getting a smack down from the world, and sometimes from the church.

however, as you, I think, have mentioned several times that it is NOT a requirement to take a second (or more) wife. SO where does that fit into the whole kit and caboodle.

chas

 

[macike]

doc wrote:

Why pursue plural marriage? Well, first of all, you do it because you are CALLED.

While doing research for my Doctoral Dissertation, I found that in the evangelical churches, there are approximately three women for every two men.

Not to be snarky but THIS took a doctoral dissertation? I mean really? A doctoral dissertation to tell you this???
I would also agree with the stats and not quibble about them at all.

That is the result of the monogamy-only family structure that was designed by the goddess-worshiping Greco-Roman pagan religious system, enacted into secular law in the Roman Empire, and adopted by the Roman Catholic Church - and which the RCC then called "christian" with absolutely no Scriptural justification whatsoever.

Do not hold back on how you feel.

James 1:27 NKJV Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

The Greek word for "widow" does not mean a woman whose man has died, but a woman who, for whatever reason (death, abandonment, divorce, never had one of her own in the first place, or any other reason) is without a man.

Source please. After a quickie look at BDAG and LN both say widow is wife of dead man.

Oh...in the Greek, "visit" does not mean to go see them once or twice a month, or take the kids to a ball game or movie every other Saturday. It means to provide for them. As in be the kid's father, and take the single mom as your woman.

I think, and I could be wrong here, you are committing an exegetical fallacy here. Visit has a number of meanings. BDAG places anything from a quick drop in to the "go to see a person with helpful intent"
With the usage in Matt 25

Matt. 25:36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ . . . .
Matt. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ . . .
James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

and the Polycarp:

W. special suggestion in the context on care to be bestowed: look after widows and orphans e˙n thvØ qli÷yei aujtw◊n in their distress

The LN narrows down to two usages 34.50

"to go to see a person on the basis of friendship and with helpful intent — ‘to visit, to go to see.’

and

to visit, with the purpose of obtaining information — ‘to visit and get information.’

I think you overestimate the position of the word here and combine with modern usage and concept of the word.

("Wife" for those of you who insist on using what Dr. Allen calls the copyrighted terminology of the world's corrupt marriage system.)

I am going to have to use this somewhere. At least the copyrighted terminology part.

Has God called you to do this? Based on what you said in your post, IMHO, yes. But that is really between you and God, not you and me.

I do appreciate your assessment. So thank you.

chas

 

[CecilW]

Does she need a husband and protector? yes.
Eze 16:49 --- would seem that I could give money and or food and or helps without any permeant relationship.
chas

'Course you can. But will it meet the stated NEED?

Time to add my serious 2 cents.

Last verse of James 1 tells men that Pure religion is to visit the widows and fatherless in their distress, right? Reading on, James nails down the point that when you are presented with a need, meet THAT need. If someone comes to you shivering and hungry, don't just say, "I'll pray for you. Be blessed and warm and fed." Feed 'em and give 'em a coat.

It follows, to MY way of thinking (and I do not require anyone else to agree, merely explaining the reason that "got" me), that if I am confronted with a "widow" (NT Greek: having lost her husband, no distinction made as to whether through death or divorce), or an "orphan" (i.e. "fatherless"), I should DO something to relieve the STATED NEED.

It isn't sufficient to offer a blessing, or add them to my prayer list, though those are important as well. It isn't even sufficient to pay a utility bill or provide a few bags of groceries, or take the kids to a ball game. Whether she or they are prepared to accept the offering or not, *I* must stand ready to meet the need by offering permanency in the form of husband or father.

In my case, this is a position hammered out of my personal fires. In my first marriage, we adopted 2 children, as well as both formally and informally fostering many others. We also offered a place in our home to some women but, while it was a temporary help, they eventually left and, in some cases, went back into bad situations. Why? I eventually concluded that what was missing was the "husband connection". Our home could only be a temporary place for them unless I was prepared to do the whole thang.

Sadly, that wife never has agreed, and legally ended our marriage, saying that she knew I'd eventually practice what I believed, and she refused to be present when that happened. 2 years later, God placed a woman with 4 children in my path and sorta said, "Love these." I have, and am grateful for His leading. No regrets, though prayers continue for the wife of my youth. But she has choices, too.

 

[CecilW]

While doing research for my Doctoral Dissertation, I found that in the evangelical churches, there are approximately three women for every two men.

Not to be snarky but THIS took a doctoral dissertation? I mean really? A doctoral dissertation to tell you this???

Hey! Go easy on the man. In some churches, particularly in the black community, it can be as high as 7:1! And all of 'em waitin' on the Good Lor' to bring 'em a MAN! Perhaps He's 'posed to make a few extras out of the abundant Georgia or Mississippi clay. Men complain that they get treated like dirt anyways! Or perhaps we men are 'posed to step up to the plate.

Anyways, I can respect it taking research to discover what the general proportion is amongst US evangelical churches in general ... :roll:

 

[macike]

Does she need a husband and protector? yes.
Eze 16:49 --- would seem that I could give money and or food and or helps without any permeant relationship.
chas

'Course you can. But will it meet the stated NEED? . . . much snipping . . .

. . . that if I am confronted with a "widow" (NT Greek: having lost her husband, no distinction made as to whether through death or divorce), or an "orphan" (i.e. "fatherless"), I should DO something to relieve the STATED NEED. . . .

It isn't sufficient to offer a blessing, or add them to my prayer list, . . . *I* must stand ready to meet the need by offering permanency in the form of husband or father. . . .
. . . I eventually concluded that what was missing was the "husband connection". Our home could only be a temporary place for them unless I was prepared to do the whole thang. . . .
. . . God placed a woman with 4 children in my path and sorta said, "Love these." I have, and am grateful for His leading.

Now I am going to extreme here, INHO arguments need to survive the extremes to be valid.

Based on what you say, I should take in (and marry) every single mom that I can find. Or at the very least if there is a single mom she should at least be invited into the family. I like in a smallish town of 15K. Just the single moms at church I would need to pray as Tevya suggested about money, If Money is the worlds curse then may G-d smite me and may I never recover. I think I would need to be smited, with money, at least three may ten times.

Maybe it is just offering temp shelter and housing and food to help moms get on feet. But let's be real, I do not think single moms (even Murphy Brown) can ever get on their feet in a legit and spiritual (see Shema) type of way.

 

[macike]

While doing research for my Doctoral Dissertation, I found that in the evangelical churches, there are approximately three women for every two men.

Not to be snarky but THIS took a doctoral dissertation? I mean really? A doctoral dissertation to tell you this???

Hey! Go easy on the man. In some churches, particularly in the black community, it can be as high as 7:1! And all of 'em waitin' on the Good Lor' to bring 'em a MAN!

I think we agree. Look at almost any church on any given Sunday (worse out west during football season), and yes we need to include the mainlines on this one. But the numbers do not shock me in any way, shape or form. It just sounds like one of the studies that say a good looking waitress and/or a large cup size will get better tips than a waitress with a small cup size and/or average looks. Ya need a study to tell you that? Really?

 

[CecilW]

Ya need a study to tell you that? Really?

In his defense, it was a mere detail studied in his overall dissertation, which was on the validity or otherwise of PM.

 

[CecilW]

Now I am going to extreme here, INHO arguments need to survive the extremes to be valid.

Nice sounding premise. May be valid for you. Not for me. I keep remembering the little boy out on the beach tossing starfish back into the ocean after a storm. A tourist, looking at the thousands and thousands of them washed ashore said to the boy, "Son, look at all of these! You can't possibly make a difference! Why bother?" The little boy picked up another starfish, gave it a heave, and said, "Made a difference to THAT one!"

I made a difference to the two children I adopted, though it did strain the finances. Made a difference to my current wife and her children as well (long story, not for open forum). That premise works better for me!

Based on what you say, I should take in (and marry) every single mom that I can find. Or at the very least if there is a single mom she should at least be invited into the family.

To my mind, there is a difference between standing ready to move if my Lord says to do so in ANY individual case, and rushing ahead trying to handle EVERY case. I do advocate the former, and strongly advise against the latter. One is obedient and mindful, the other brash and cookie-cutter mindless.

I would need to pray as Tevya suggested about money, If Money is the worlds curse then may G-d smite me and may I never recover.

AMEN! Over and over and over again!

Maybe it is just offering temp shelter and housing and food to help moms get on feet.

If that is what you are able to handle, then fine. Start there with our blessings. Just please keep your heart open to God's quiet voice saying, "Step up higher. Here is the Way! Come walk with Me in it."

 

[Anonymous]

WHY??? Really, if we have to ask the question, perhaps we shouldn't do it. Seems quite likely one's heart isn't in it. That would be a sadly motivated marriage and likely to be miserable. Where's the heart?

 

[Scarecrow]

J.W. I think macike is simply preparing a strong defense because I often hear the same arguments - we are not commanded to do it so why do it?.

"however, as you, I think, have mentioned several times that it is NOT a requirement to take a second (or more) wife. SO where does that fit into the whole kit and caboodle."

Well under certain circumstances it is required...but they do not seem to be the circumstances you are in. While not stated as a command that every man must take more than one wife, if led by the Lord in that direction it is something that should be pursued. There are numerous examples where men went a different direction than the Lord sent them...Abram went to Egypt...not once, but twice...Jonah we all know about...and what about the rich young ruler that left the presences of Jesus because he wanted to keep his wealth...etc...every instance I can think of where a man did not follow where the Lord was leading him ended up with less than desirable results until the man repented and followed the leading of the Lord. I think that you will feel it in your heart, you will feel that something is wrong if you try to go a different direction than the Lord is leading you. We were given a spirit of faith not fear, and when we do not follow where the Lord is leading us it is often due to a spirit of fear of some form. Don't let any type of fear prevent you from following where God is leading you.