The issue with this response is according to Ephesians 5, a husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. If you follow the natural logical progression of the church is only betrothed to Christ but not yet married, then the husband should naturally remain celibate with his wife until Christ marries the church.
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1: When does marriage begin? - Sex
- Thread starter FollowingHim
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Given that this discussion seems to have been put to bed by its founder, I will begin a related discussion in a new thread . . . "CONTEXTile Mill-ing Around"
Lol, I haven't seen it yet but I'm betting it's going to be good....
No it doesn't. Because sleeping with a harlot doesn't mean she's your sister. Why do you keep going to these unrelated things to try and get around the big, directly applicable verses? Laban is a minor character and there is nothing to suggest that he was speaking God's Words. Paul on the other hand is possibly the third most important man in the Bible and he was most definitely speaking God's Words. One flesh only exists between a husband and wife.
You do realize what the practical implications would be if you were correct right? That the relationship between a husband and a wife would be no more distinct then that between a very sketchy uncle and the nephew he'd never met. I don't think you really think that. I also don't think you really think that the words of a man whose daughter was able to steal his household idols is really the guy we're looking to for major theology. If your argument has been reduced to this, or if anything you believe is hingent on the prophetic accuracy of Laban then it's time to reevaluate.
But even if it were so, that one flesh just meant kinship of any kind and Paul just didn't want you paying your female relatives for sex, it still doesn't change everything we've seen, sex changes the relationship between a man and woman the way nothing else can. You can make a covenant with any woman. You can give money to any woman's father. You have sex with your wife.
Look, I Corinthians 6:16, Exodus 22:16 and Deuteronomy 21:12 are what's on the table. If you want to talk about those then fine. But until you've dealt with those passages then nothing else is really on point. Those are three passages that are direct commands concerning sex and marriage. They have to be dealt with first. I'm not interested n anything else.
So the passage in 1 Corinthians 6 is not about having sex with a harlot but being joined (married) to a harlot and bringing someone like that into the family of Christ specifically though it also has the application of why would you marry or join yourself to a harlot. The word “joined” (Strongs 2853 kollao) does not mean to lie with or to “know” in a biblical sense but to fasten together, to join or fasten firmly together, to join ones self to, to cleave to. It’s the root of the same word that’s translated “cleave” in Matthew 19 (Strongs 4347 proskallao) which means to glue to, to join ones self to closely, cleave to stick to. This word does not mean sex in any form that I’ve found Scripturally (NT) but essentially means the “binding” of marriage or beginning a family structure but never the “act” of marriage. This becomes obvious and even hilarious when you try to substitute sex for joining in the mentions below (which are all of them, kallao)
The other places that this word is found
Luke 10:11. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you
Luke 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country
Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them
Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot
Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation
Acts 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed
Romans 12:9 Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Cor 6:13b. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? (Fornication) God forbid. 16 What? Know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one “body”, (Strongs 4983 soma used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were, a social, ethical mystical body) for two, saith he shall be one flesh. . . . . 18. Flee fornication, Every sin that a man doe the is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The passage does not remotely lend itself to say that if you have sex with a harlot youre one flesh, rather, if you marry a harlot you are one flesh.
This would be something that you should abhor rather than be joined to per Romans 12:9 above as then you would be unequally yoked. Don’t have sex with a harlot because that’s fornication, and don’t marry a harlot because that’s something you should abhor.
The other places that this word is found
Luke 10:11. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you
Luke 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country
Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them
Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot
Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation
Acts 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed
Romans 12:9 Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Cor 6:13b. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? (Fornication) God forbid. 16 What? Know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one “body”, (Strongs 4983 soma used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were, a social, ethical mystical body) for two, saith he shall be one flesh. . . . . 18. Flee fornication, Every sin that a man doe the is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The passage does not remotely lend itself to say that if you have sex with a harlot youre one flesh, rather, if you marry a harlot you are one flesh.
This would be something that you should abhor rather than be joined to per Romans 12:9 above as then you would be unequally yoked. Don’t have sex with a harlot because that’s fornication, and don’t marry a harlot because that’s something you should abhor.
Exodus 22:16
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
This ones reeeeeally simple. If a man sleeps with an unbetrothed maid, it does not say that the sex act makes them married, rather, he is obligated to bargain with the father so that the father will allow her to be his wife. She is not his wife till he’s bargained with the father and comes to an agreement for her. This is additionally reinforced in the next verse.
If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins (and they are still not married because they never were til there’s an agreement between him and the father)
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
This ones reeeeeally simple. If a man sleeps with an unbetrothed maid, it does not say that the sex act makes them married, rather, he is obligated to bargain with the father so that the father will allow her to be his wife. She is not his wife till he’s bargained with the father and comes to an agreement for her. This is additionally reinforced in the next verse.
If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins (and they are still not married because they never were til there’s an agreement between him and the father)
Deuteronomy 21:12 is the closest passage that I’ve found that would indicate sex alone = marriage. It is however a very unusual circumstance in that she is a captive, not a bond maiden or pilgamesh. And, (drumroll). He indicates a desire to her that he wouldest have her to his wife before she goes home with him and mourns for a month. Can anybody spell INTENT. So this passage is once again an intent + sex = marriage.
Next?
Next?
@ZecAustin and @Verifyveritas76 You guys should turn this into a comedy routine and go on tour
Lol, this is great. I'm not sure what extra-biblical source you found this in but it's good to know I can have sex with harlots as long as I don't marry them. I don't know why I'm fighting you so much on this. It really sounds like a good deal. I used to love having sex with harlots.
The only thing that gives me pause is that verse 16 is sandwhiched between a couple of porneia references in verse 13 and 18 (as you so helpfully showed us above) so I'm pretty sure from verse 13 talking about sex that verse 16 didn't veer off into a discussion about a covenanted and monetarily transacted arrangement with the father of harlot before coming straight back to sex in verse 18. Unfortunately for all of our Friday nights I'm going to have to stick with the traditional understanding that we're being prohibited from having sex with harlots.
I have to say though, very original. I've never heard any serious Bible believer tell me it wasn't prohibited for me to have sex with a harlot as long as I didn't negotiate a payment plan with her father before covenanting with her. Tell me, could I still pay her father if I didn't covenant with her? I wouldn't be marrying her by your definition. I suppose I could covenant with her as long as I didn't pay her father as well.
It's a shame that interpretation is so patently ridiculous on it's very surface because I bet a lot of harlot's fathers would be good with that arrangement.
Come on man! There's no way you think that. That's not even grasping at straws. That's Cornwallis making his subordinate deliver his sword to Washington. Just admit that you don't have a good answer and you're clinging to your belief anyway. It's not dishonorable. It's called faith and it's about the only defense you can give at this point. You believe this no matter what and nothing will change your mind.
Although I'm willing to put it to a vote to see if anyone else things that 1 Corinthians 6:16 isn't prohibiting us for having sex with harlots. Tell me, do you think sex should be exclusive to a "marriage" or do you think sex is a stand alone act that can be performed with any woman who is not covenanted and paid for by another man? Maybe we're farther apart on this than I thought.
He indicates a desire for her means exactly what it says, he desires her on some level. It probably means physically because the passage starts off referencing the woman's physical appearance. Since the desire isn't defined it isn't really all that important though. This is still sex equals marriage but even if intent could be read in to this there still ain't a covenant or a dowry anywhere in sight and last time I checked those were two things you were adamant were necessary.
He indicates a desire for her to be his wife. Not just a sexual desire. There’s a massive difference.
A covenant, or dowry is always just a visible evidence of intent. Neither are necessary as long as their is intent, however, intent without the others (though totally acceptable) is a verrrry shaky foundation to build a marriage on.
As I stated earlier, its a good, better, best scenario. Intent + sex = marriage (good). Written Covenant + sex = marriage (better) and Written covenant + Father’s blessing + sex = marriage. (Best)
The opposite possition has been represented that Sex alone = marriage. If this is true then any sex is either marriage or adultery, there can be no other position. However, this perspective would then find it impossible to explain the concept of fornication which 1 Cor 6:9 clearly differentiates. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither: fornicators, nor, idolaters, nor, adulterers, . . . . If they were the same thing then there would be no need to mention it twice. A fornicator is one who has sex with someone that isn’t married and there is no intent on either part to convert this into marriage as in the case of sex with the harlot a few verses down.
A covenant, or dowry is always just a visible evidence of intent. Neither are necessary as long as their is intent, however, intent without the others (though totally acceptable) is a verrrry shaky foundation to build a marriage on.
As I stated earlier, its a good, better, best scenario. Intent + sex = marriage (good). Written Covenant + sex = marriage (better) and Written covenant + Father’s blessing + sex = marriage. (Best)
The opposite possition has been represented that Sex alone = marriage. If this is true then any sex is either marriage or adultery, there can be no other position. However, this perspective would then find it impossible to explain the concept of fornication which 1 Cor 6:9 clearly differentiates. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither: fornicators, nor, idolaters, nor, adulterers, . . . . If they were the same thing then there would be no need to mention it twice. A fornicator is one who has sex with someone that isn’t married and there is no intent on either part to convert this into marriage as in the case of sex with the harlot a few verses down.
"Here we go loop dee loo!" Just because they call it circular reasoning doesn't mean it's actually reasoning. It's really just circular. There is no difference. This is why Jesus commands us not to have sexual desire for another man's wife, it's adultery. The sexual desire is adultery. Whether or not you intend to desire to covenant with her and intend to desire to negotiate with her father. You're imaginary intent is irrelevant. You desired her and you committed adultery.
YES! Hallelujah and the tears of joy fall like rain.
Ah, my old friend porniea. How I've miss ye. Fornication isn't a separate sin VV. It's a refence to all of the sexual sins listed in the Old Testament. IT IS NOT SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE WHICH DOES NOT EXIST. Did you never stop to wonder why the New Testament never reaffirmed all of the prohibitions on things like incest and bestiality? Well it did. Every time it says fornication, a sin not listed in the Law, what it means is "prohibited sexual acts." It does not mean sex before marriage because then you would have the New Testament obsessed with a sin that was never recognized in the Old Testament while never once condemning anything else other adultery and whatever the heyhira it is we're not allowed to do with harlots. At this point I've forgotten and I've decided to avoid them and their father's at all costs out of an abundance of caution.
This may actually give you the last piece of the puzzle you need to come over to the light. Fornication in the Bible is not sex before marriage. That's a modern definition. It's a reference back to the Torah. This is very clear when the elders at Jerusalem authorize Paul to go and preach a very small list of things; I believe it was baptism, not eating food sacrificed to idols and to abstain from fornication (I'm pulling that from memory but fornication is on the list). If fornication meant sex before marriage (which again doesn't exist) then Paul was leaving his converts free to engage in a whole host of things none of us believe is Lawful. Fornication is not sex before marriage. Sex before marriage is not a thing. Fornication is the prohibited sexual acts listed in the Torah. Since we've finally put this one to bed I think, at least I can't imagine that having once exhausted both Laban and fornication as well as possibly accused the Apostle Paul of allowing both incest, bestiality and adultery and finally managed to rope in Matthew 5:27-28 which I should have brought in the moment you said intent and covenant (I apologize to everyone who has had to suffer through this because of this oversight) that there are any stones left unturned for you to hide under, I think I will also put myself to bed. I will check back later to see if you found a pebble to try to squeeze a hangnail or something under but I can't imagine where else you would go from here.
Especially with the Matthew 5:27-28. A desire to have sex with a woman, devoid of the intent or the dowry or the covenant, is adultery. That's a slam dunk VV76. Those are the Words of Christ. What do you do with that?
@Keith Martin --yeh--let me know when it's up!
I can tell you may be mildly amused?!? You've got to give it to both vv76 and zec--they're iron sharpening iron. We/I am gleaning from the interaction.
Is Jesus referring to sexual desire specifically or coveting her, there?
Romans 7:7 KJV
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
T
there sure are a lot of sparks... i hope it’s sharpening something
So the man who desired an unmarried captive to be his wife commits adultery? I thought thats what we were talking about. You’re conflating two separate issues Zec.
S
Any woman? Or just a married woman? I thought adultery could only happen with a married woman? It would help if you would be more precise in your arguments Zec. Apparently you’re finding satisfaction dunking on the kiddie goal.
Fornication does include all the prohibited sexual acts that you mentioned, but where you're going wrong with this is that you assume that sex before marriage is not included in the fornication category. Allow me to shed some light.
Genesis 34:7, 8 . . . . because he (Shechem) had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done. And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.
This is yet another passage that doesn't indicate that she was his wife just by sex alone, and he was even holding her hostage at the time so the sex + cohabitation clause could be argued. Still not his wife yet without the permission of the father. Sex + cohabitation - consent of the father for a maiden = no marriage
Deut. 22:21 . . . if the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, . . . they shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her fathers house
Jeremiah 29:23 Because they have committed villany (the same word translated as folly above) in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors wives.
Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore. In this case, sex + payment to the father still does not equal marriage
Leviticus 21:7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane
Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father.
Numbers 25:1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. Whoredom, not marriage.
Deuteronomy 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore . . . into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow. Again, payment + sex and no marriage
Ezekiel 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her
Hosea 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery, for themselves are separated with whores and they sacrifice with harlots
Apparently, whoredom is what unmarried women do and harlotry is what married women do if they are being paid for sex outside of covenant.
Apparently, the idea of "wrought folly" or profaning her fathers house is what unmarried women do when they are consenting to sex but not being paid for it.
Adultery is what married women do when they have sex outside of the covenant and aren't paid for it.
All four of these situations are ones Biblically described as sex with various instances that could have equaled marriage but didn't because that wasn't their intent.
Sex alone or even with payment does not equal marriage unless the intent for marriage is present. Only then can it be considered "marriage" and it should become (at least somewhat) public knowledge.
Any woman? Or just a married woman? I thought adultery could only happen with a married woman? It would help if you would be more precise in your arguments Zec. Apparently you’re finding satisfaction dunking on the kiddie goal.
I really have enjoyed this Zec and probably would have never even studied this topic otherwise. The issue with your approach to what you believe is that you make half baked assumptions based upon faulty interpretations of one or two scriptures and assume that the rest of Scripture supports these bad assumptions.
Fornication does include all the prohibited sexual acts that you mentioned, but where you're going wrong with this is that you assume that sex before marriage is not included in the fornication category. Allow me to shed some light.
Genesis 34:7, 8 . . . . because he (Shechem) had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done. And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.
This is yet another passage that doesn't indicate that she was his wife just by sex alone, and he was even holding her hostage at the time so the sex + cohabitation clause could be argued. Still not his wife yet without the permission of the father. Sex + cohabitation - consent of the father for a maiden = no marriage
Deut. 22:21 . . . if the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, . . . they shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her fathers house
Jeremiah 29:23 Because they have committed villany (the same word translated as folly above) in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbors wives.
Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore. In this case, sex + payment to the father still does not equal marriage
Leviticus 21:7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane
Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father.
Numbers 25:1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. Whoredom, not marriage.
Deuteronomy 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore . . . into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow. Again, payment + sex and no marriage
Ezekiel 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her
Hosea 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery, for themselves are separated with whores and they sacrifice with harlots
Apparently, whoredom is what unmarried women do and harlotry is what married women do if they are being paid for sex outside of covenant.
Apparently, the idea of "wrought folly" or profaning her fathers house is what unmarried women do when they are consenting to sex but not being paid for it.
Adultery is what married women do when they have sex outside of the covenant and aren't paid for it.
All four of these situations are ones Biblically described as sex with various instances that could have equaled marriage but didn't because that wasn't their intent.
Sex alone or even with payment does not equal marriage unless the intent for marriage is present. Only then can it be considered "marriage" and it should become (at least somewhat) public knowledge.
I didn't want to dilute the impact of this statement by including it in that insanely long post above, but I wanted to extrapolate from this into some verses in the New Testament that I have always been a little bit unclear on. My study this morning has definitely cleared that up for me.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable in all and undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
A married woman that has sex outside of her marriage is an adulteress, her actions are considered adultery and the male side of the equation is considered an adulterer.
An unmarried woman that has sex is divided into two categories based upon payment.
- Payment + sex - intent to marry = whoredom.
- Sex alone - payment - intent to marry = fornication or profaning her fathers house/folly
A man who commits villany /folly (Jer 29:23) or fornication with an unmarried woman is still culpable but this sin can be wiped away when and only when he satisfies conditions making her his wife.
Practical application re: polygyny IMO
Sir: if in the course of your search for another wife you engage in sex outside of covenant for any reason and fail for any reason to convert that into a marriage/covenant you are guilty of villany/folly or fornication.
Ma'am: if in the course of your search for a husband and family you engage in sex outside of covenant for any reason and fail for any reason to convert that into a marriage/covenant, you are guilty of villany/folly or fornication.
Can you have sex with intent to marry and it be ok? Absolutely! My advice for the protection of both parties is to make it evident ASAP that that was your intent. Draft a ketubah, ensure that there are witnesses to this fact even if it is after the fact. If possible, pay a bride price of some sort even if it is to her. A ring, even if you choose not to wear it on her "marriage finger". Do something! This is a practical way to strengthen the foundation of your house beyond "he said", "she said".
The best way to avoid all this? Covenant! Covenant! Covenant! Then sex. Lots and lots of sex!
@Verifyveritas76, is there something going on in the Heb or Gk that distinguishes whore from harlot? From an English pov, harlot, whore, and prostitute are all synonyms. English being the kaleidoscopic polyglot language that it is, prostitute came from the Latin, whore is a good ol' Germanic/AngloSaxon word, and harlot comes from more recent French or Spanish ( says Webster; I'm taking his word for it).
They all have the same basic meaning though. What distinction are you making above between the unmarried and the married woman, and why wouldn't the married woman be an adulteress in any event (whether she takes cash, dinner and a movie, some attentive listening and sympathy, or some other form of 'payment')?