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biblically speaking

I’m not quite sure how to express this, but this topic in particular Ive come to believe is critical to building a successful poly culture for multiple generations. Understanding why the Jewish culture works for polygamy and the Roman culture will not is one of the major things I believe is missing from our perspectives.


But I think it's an assumption that it would be common for a woman to be out from the authority of a man.

This is what I mean about cultural bias. Under our culture a woman is either under her husband or fathers authority or she’s not and in rebellion. Because she’s under his authority everything she owns is also. The problem with this is that we operate under a Roman family model that is based upon monogamy where the inheritance passes to the children (the mother and father become the beneficiaries) The Jewish family model is structured to deal with inheritances that pass to the grandchildren from (possibly) multiple wives. The daughters portion of her fathers inheritance was entrusted to her stewardship in the form of a Dowry which she was to manage for the benefit of her children only, not for the benefit of the sister wives children or the benefit of the husband.

A wife with a dowry would be under her husbands covering and authority, but the dowry and anything pertaining to it would not be under his authority unless she preferred it that way. The dowry was basically her children’s inheritance and she was specifically entrusted with its oversight by her father. There were multiple ways that this dowry/trust could be administered including the possibility of having her husband oversee it as a trustee, never as a beneficiary. As such, he was accountable by law and could be removed as trustee and oversight regained by the wife. Any land, orchards, groves or servants that were included in the dowry was considered hereditary property to the wife’s family and would leave with the wife (if it ever came down to that) just as it came into the marriage with the wife. A ketubah would usually have an inventory of the dowry and if he divorced her or the reverse, he was held accountable by the beit din to make sure that she left with all of it.

Sometimes a wife would have no interest in managing her own affairs and would “loan” her dowry to her husband. It was basically a loan that was never called in as long as there was no divorce but as soon as a writing of divorce was initiated the principle only must be paid back and she had to be sent out with everything she came in with. In Christ’s day, (and even prior) wicked husbands would put away their wives without cause but withhold a writing of divorcement often because they didnt want to or couldn’t pay the dowry back as required. They would essentially kick them out of the house for the slightest or no cause, without any means of support or sustenance, and try to starve them out by delaying the writing of divorce as long as they could, hoping that she would resort to base measures to survive or just return to the fathers house. For this reason the beit din (who couldn’t force the writing of a divorce) would sentence the wicked man to being publicly whipped until he voluntarily offered a writing of divorce.
 
I’m not quite sure how to express this, but this topic in particular Ive come to believe is critical to building a successful poly culture for multiple generations. Understanding why the Jewish culture works for polygamy and the Roman culture will not is one of the major things I believe is missing from our perspectives.




This is what I mean about cultural bias. Under our culture a woman is either under her husband or fathers authority or she’s not and in rebellion. Because she’s under his authority everything she owns is also. The problem with this is that we operate under a Roman family model that is based upon monogamy where the inheritance passes to the children (the mother and father become the beneficiaries) The Jewish family model is structured to deal with inheritances that pass to the grandchildren from (possibly) multiple wives. The daughters portion of her fathers inheritance was entrusted to her stewardship in the form of a Dowry which she was to manage for the benefit of her children only, not for the benefit of the sister wives children or the benefit of the husband.

A wife with a dowry would be under her husbands covering and authority, but the dowry and anything pertaining to it would not be under his authority unless she preferred it that way. The dowry was basically her children’s inheritance and she was specifically entrusted with its oversight by her father. There were multiple ways that this dowry/trust could be administered including the possibility of having her husband oversee it as a trustee, never as a beneficiary. As such, he was accountable by law and could be removed as trustee and oversight regained by the wife. Any land, orchards, groves or servants that were included in the dowry was considered hereditary property to the wife’s family and would leave with the wife (if it ever came down to that) just as it came into the marriage with the wife. A ketubah would usually have an inventory of the dowry and if he divorced her or the reverse, he was held accountable by the beit din to make sure that she left with all of it.

Sometimes a wife would have no interest in managing her own affairs and would “loan” her dowry to her husband. It was basically a loan that was never called in as long as there was no divorce but as soon as a writing of divorce was initiated the principle only must be paid back and she had to be sent out with everything she came in with. In Christ’s day, (and even prior) wicked husbands would put away their wives without cause but withhold a writing of divorcement often because they didnt want to or couldn’t pay the dowry back as required. They would essentially kick them out of the house for the slightest or no cause, without any means of support or sustenance, and try to starve them out by delaying the writing of divorce as long as they could, hoping that she would resort to base measures to survive or just return to the fathers house. For this reason the beit din (who couldn’t force the writing of a divorce) would sentence the wicked man to being publicly whipped until he voluntarily offered a writing of divorce.
Do you have any scripture on this?
 
You may be conflating cultural norms with biblical principles. And Proverbs 31 is silent on the proceeds of all of Ruby's labor.

So called “Biblical” principles that conform more to Roman Law than Jewish Law can scarcely be called Biblical. The Jews didnt get everything right, and sometimes perverted the law for their own benefit, but they also had an intrinsic understanding of Biblical principles and the cultural norms that originated from them that far outshines our extremely handicapped view through Roman lenses.

Jewish Law was structured specifically for polygamy to succeed.

Roman Law is structured specifically for matriarchy to succeed.
 
Do you have any scripture on this?

That’s the rub. Yes there is a good bit of scripture on this. It’s all scripture that you would know and recognize immediately. As Ive mentioned before, the problem isn’t with the Scripture or lack thereof, rather it is that we tend to read and interpret it through the lenses of our own cultural bias. A Jew will read the same passages and think we’re crazy for interpreting it the way we do.

The only difference is that they have a Biblical cultural bias while we have a Roman cultural bias that we try to interpret alongside “Christianity”
 
That’s the rub. Yes there is a good bit of scripture on this. It’s all scripture that you would know and recognize immediately. As Ive mentioned before, the problem isn’t with the Scripture or lack thereof, rather it is that we tend to read and interpret it through the lenses of our own cultural bias. A Jew will read the same passages and think we’re crazy for interpreting it the way we do.

The only difference is that they have a Biblical cultural bias while we have a Roman cultural bias that we try to interpret alongside “Christianity”
Well we've been through all of this before. It interprets itself.
 
Well we've been through all of this before. It interprets itself.
I find it interesting that it tends to “interpret” itself in conformance with the readers cultural or preferential bias.

You know me, Zec. I don’t even try to pretend to consider myself Messianic or Hebrew Roots or Torah keeping etc. And yet here I am trying to get “us” in general to educate ourselves a little bit more into a culture that succeeded with a Biblically based polygynous family.

Why?

Because when you do, you will read the Scriptures with an entirely different view and level of understanding that will give you a much stronger foundation to build a plural family on.

Just my .02
 
I find it interesting that it tends to “interpret” itself in conformance with the readers cultural or preferential bias.

You know me, Zec. I don’t even try to pretend to consider myself Messianic or Hebrew Roots or Torah keeping etc. And yet here I am trying to get “us” in general to educate ourselves a little bit more into a culture that succeeded with a Biblically based polygynous family.

Why?

Because when you do, you will read the Scriptures with an entirely different view and level of understanding that will give you a much stronger foundation to build a plural family on.

Just my .02
We suborn culture to scripture, not scripture to culture. Everything we know about these cultures comes either from scripture or highly suspect human sources. We already have the scriptures and we can't trust the humans. Outside sources can be interesting background, or they can just as easily be background noise.
 
I’m not quite sure how to express this, but this topic in particular Ive come to believe is critical to building a successful poly culture for multiple generations. Understanding why the Jewish culture works for polygamy and the Roman culture will not is one of the major things I believe is missing from our perspectives.




This is what I mean about cultural bias. Under our culture a woman is either under her husband or fathers authority or she’s not and in rebellion. Because she’s under his authority everything she owns is also. The problem with this is that we operate under a Roman family model that is based upon monogamy where the inheritance passes to the children (the mother and father become the beneficiaries) The Jewish family model is structured to deal with inheritances that pass to the grandchildren from (possibly) multiple wives. The daughters portion of her fathers inheritance was entrusted to her stewardship in the form of a Dowry which she was to manage for the benefit of her children only, not for the benefit of the sister wives children or the benefit of the husband.

A wife with a dowry would be under her husbands covering and authority, but the dowry and anything pertaining to it would not be under his authority unless she preferred it that way. The dowry was basically her children’s inheritance and she was specifically entrusted with its oversight by her father. There were multiple ways that this dowry/trust could be administered including the possibility of having her husband oversee it as a trustee, never as a beneficiary. As such, he was accountable by law and could be removed as trustee and oversight regained by the wife. Any land, orchards, groves or servants that were included in the dowry was considered hereditary property to the wife’s family and would leave with the wife (if it ever came down to that) just as it came into the marriage with the wife. A ketubah would usually have an inventory of the dowry and if he divorced her or the reverse, he was held accountable by the beit din to make sure that she left with all of it.

Sometimes a wife would have no interest in managing her own affairs and would “loan” her dowry to her husband. It was basically a loan that was never called in as long as there was no divorce but as soon as a writing of divorce was initiated the principle only must be paid back and she had to be sent out with everything she came in with. In Christ’s day, (and even prior) wicked husbands would put away their wives without cause but withhold a writing of divorcement often because they didnt want to or couldn’t pay the dowry back as required. They would essentially kick them out of the house for the slightest or no cause, without any means of support or sustenance, and try to starve them out by delaying the writing of divorce as long as they could, hoping that she would resort to base measures to survive or just return to the fathers house. For this reason the beit din (who couldn’t force the writing of a divorce) would sentence the wicked man to being publicly whipped until he voluntarily offered a writing of divorce.
Thanks @Verifyveritas76 for these crucial points of clarification! A full understanding of things such as this are so helpful and refreshing when it comes to discerning truth vs. error, culture, tradition, and bias which is the sea in which we swim today. Without these pieces to the puzzle, sometimes it nigh to impossible to know where it went wrong, or how did it get to the mess it is today. Thank You!
 
So called “Biblical” principles that conform more to Roman Law than Jewish Law can scarcely be called Biblical. The Jews didnt get everything right, and sometimes perverted the law for their own benefit, but they also had an intrinsic understanding of Biblical principles and the cultural norms that originated from them that far outshines our extremely handicapped view through Roman lenses.

Jewish Law was structured specifically for polygamy to succeed.

Roman Law is structured specifically for matriarchy to succeed.
Interesting that Roman Law isn't structured for patriarchy to succeed and is structured for monogamy to succeed! How backward is that!!
 
Interesting that Roman Law isn't structured for patriarchy to succeed and is structured for monogamy to succeed! How backward is that!!
It's only backwards if you expect something else. Monogamy was the innovation that led to Rome's creation, and from there the entire western world, so of course monogamy is protected by its laws.

I can hardly say it more plainly.
 
Sometimes I think folks jump to the conclusion that if a man has the authority /ownership he will misuse it and be selfish or abusive. And sometimes that will be true... But is does not have to be true.

In Christ’s day, (and even prior) wicked husbands would put away their wives without cause but withhold a writing of divorcement often because they didnt want to or couldn’t pay the dowry back as required.

You said it (wicked husband) I don't think anyone here is claiming that divorce isn't messy. In whatever culture you are in it is an absolute disaster. And often the children are the biggest victims. I don't see how the woman being entitled to what she had been given by her father in Hebrew culture is any different from the typical "half of everything they own" in western culture. Our culture defiantly does not view the husband as the owner of the wife or her possessions.

Within the context of a biblical family these issues should never be a problem because all should be behaving properly. Divorce should not be happening. Women should be submitting to and reverencing the husband. The husband should be lovingly ruling the entire family. Deligating some authority to others in the family. But still being the highest authority in the household.

I don't see why this does not fit with Scripture. Nor do I see why this would not work for a plural family. But I am new to this whole pm thing and I am not an authority on that subject so please point out with Scripture where I'm wrong...

(perhaps we should move this to a new thread we have gotten off topic to some degree)
 
OK, I'll try to say it more plainly:

Some folk of BF are intent on feeling sorry for themselves, claiming that polygamy is persecuted because it's oh-so-Christian. Get over yourselves. The world really does not care. This world, as a faceless system, just wants power. It's the Borg — the real-life Borg — and the monogamous West is its mother ship.

That's not to say that Christianity doesn't suffer, nor individual Christians and families, as do all good people. Just that you're not going to get far trying to thwart an effort that doesn't exist.

If it'll make y'all feel better, consider this: In some ways, an enemy that doesn't even care is worse than one that hates you.

On Star Trek, the Borg was the nastiest threat for a reason.

The enemy here is not people who don't profess Christianity as you do, it's the tendency within any particular individual, group, or institution to gravitate toward worldly power and the building up of that system in any of its countless aspects. The good and humble folk who are our allies — even when they (or we) seem at odds with one another — include all who care first about people and their humanity.

(P.S. This post is not aimed at Pacman, he just happened to post before I could submit this follow-up to my previous remark. It's just something that I've been wanting to say.)
 
A good brother asked me to "put meat on them bones" regarding my remark that "monogamy was the innovation that led to Rome's creation." Happy to oblige:

The world was tribes, and alliances of tribes (formed through intermarriage). Then someone figured out that shutting off the ability of tribes to make those alliances would also shut down their very identity as tribes and and allow the new system — the state — to re-channel all their energy to its own purposes. Boom — they had a machine that couldn't be stopped. As long as monogamy is the rule.
 
@Verifyveritas76 , thank you for the heavy lifting. Keep going. There is huge importance in understanding the cultural biases and how those affect our understanding od Scripture and why poly flourished in the Hebrew culture.

@mystic you said a mouthful. I have come to an understaning that 'monogamy only' is a (the?) cornerstone of Western civilization and the adversary's system. This explains why the truth of poly is so hated. It restores headship.
 
@mystic just read your last post. 'restores tribes!' Wow.

Interestingly, one of the promises of God is the restoration of the tribes and even in the New Jerusalem we are divided into.... tribes.

Now, I do believe He has kept up with us and will assign where each goes, but the restoration of plural marriage may be in preparation for the millennial kingdom...

Hmmmm....
 
@mystic, you are on a roll, a good one.
 
It's only backwards if you expect something else. Monogamy was the innovation that led to Rome's creation, and from there the entire western world, so of course monogamy is protected by its laws.

I can hardly say it more plainly.
I guess it just seems so different as to how I've ever seen the Roman empire (not the RC church). There is nothing in our educational literature our culture has fed us that says the men were wimpy, passive, acquiesent, or even desired to be gentlemen or treat their women well. They've always been portrayed as strong, ruthless, brutal, "it's my way or the highway" type mentality. I get that the RC church instituted monogamy at the point of do it or die, but I've never seen the Roman government at these roots. The Roman government was very successful and powerful long before the RC church rose to power. I'm not arguing or debating you @mystic or @Verifyveritas76; merely thinking outloud and commenting on the statements you've made. :)
 
@Verifyveritas76 , thank you for the heavy lifting. Keep going. There is huge importance in understanding the cultural biases and how those affect our understanding od Scripture and why poly flourished in the Hebrew culture.

@mystic you said a mouthful. I have come to an understaning that 'monogamy only' is a (the?) cornerstone of Western civilization and the adversary's system. This explains why the truth of poly is so hated. It restores headship.
Thanks for saying it for me! This is exactly what I was thinking!
 
I guess it just seems so different as to how I've ever seen the Roman empire (not the RC church). There is nothing in our educational literature our culture has fed us that says the men were wimpy, passive, acquiesent, or even desired to be gentlemen or treat their women well. They've always been portrayed as strong, ruthless, brutal, "it's my way or the highway" type mentality. I get that the RC church instituted monogamy at the point of do it or die, but I've never seen the Roman government at these roots. The Roman government was very successful and powerful long before the RC church rose to power. I'm not arguing or debating you @mystic or @Verifyveritas76; merely thinking outloud and commenting on the statements you've made. :)
It actually goes back to the Greek culture absorbed by the Romans. Hera, wife of Zeus, was the vindictive jealous goddess of monogamy and matrimony. Monogamy was legislated in Greek culture in conjunction with democracy to empower every man while reducing patriarchal competition and tribalism. It was fed by easy divorce, permissible mistresses and temple prostitution. Monogamy insured a surplus of women (men, particularly young men, had a higher mortality rate) for the promiscuous lifestyles, contrary to Judaism's polygamy that insured the opposite: tribalism, patriarchy and all women under covering/headship
 
It actually goes back to the Greek culture absorbed by the Romans. Hera, wife of Zeus, was the vindictive jealous goddess of monogamy and matrimony. Monogamy was legislated in Greek culture in conjunction with democracy to empower every man while reducing patriarchal competition and tribalism. It was fed by easy divorce, permissible mistresses and temple prostitution. Monogamy insured a surplus of women (men, particularly young men, had a higher mortality rate) for the promiscuous lifestyles, contrary to Judaism's polygamy that insured the opposite: tribalism, patriarchy and all women under covering/headship
Ahhh- so you're saying these roots actually started in Greek culture and morphed into the Roman and then into western?--right? So were the Greeks the ones who originally decided the tribes had to go if they were to gain control?
 
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