0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion

[steve]

A post that I made in a similar discussion on fb:

I’ve never been able to get my head around the idea that it is a marriage if it is not voluntarily a marriage.
If two people fail to restrain themselves, but never intended a commitment, did they just accidentally create a marriage?

I’m not saying that they didn’t, only that I haven’t become convinced that they did.

Yes, in some way they have become one, Paul is clear on that, but does that equal marriage in the eyes of Yah?

 

[Off-gridinwv]

A post that I made in a similar discussion on fb:

I’ve never been able to get my head around the idea that it is a marriage if it is not voluntarily a marriage.
If two people fail to restrain themselves, but never intended a commitment, did they just accidentally create a marriage?

I’m not saying that they didn’t, only that I haven’t become convinced that they did.

Yes, in some way they have become one, Paul is clear on that, but does that equal marriage in the eyes of Yah?

In 2 Sam. 13 it appears Tamar thought so. She was pretty upset at Amnon putting her away.

 

[NickF]

In 2 Sam. 13 it appears Tamar thought so. She was pretty upset at Amnon putting her away.

You're assuming she thought she was married. That's a huge leap.

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

He may not put her away all his days. She was taken against her will, she begged him to not rape her, he did it anyways and threw her out afterwards. Don't eisegete the passage. She didn't say she was married. She was humbled/violated/desecrated. Not married. There was sex but no covenant.

Calling that rape a marriage is absurd and not scriptural. Pure conjecture. Disgusts me.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

In 2 Sam. 13 it appears Tamar thought so. She was pretty upset at Amnon putting her away.

If so, then why did she ask Amnon to get David's permission for her to become his wife? She could have just allowed it with the understanding that she was in the process of becoming his wife. What she understood, was that she had lost her virginity, and would never find another husband as a result, and we see that played out that she never married.

 

[steve]

You're assuming she thought she was married. That's a huge leap.

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

He may not put her away all his days. She was taken against her will, she begged him to not rape her, he did it anyways and threw her out afterwards. Don't eisegete the passage. She didn't say she was married. She was humbled/violated/desecrated. Not married. There was sex but no covenant.

Calling that rape a marriage is absurd and not scriptural. Pure conjecture. Disgusts me.

It was definitely an ugly situation, nothing defendable.

But the point is that she wanted to be allowed to stay in the relationship.

 

[Off-gridinwv]

To buy tim

If so, then why did she ask Amnon to get David's permission for her to become his wife? She could have just allowed it with the understanding that she was in the process of becoming his wife. What she understood, was that she had lost her virginity, and would never find another husband as a result, and we see that played out that she never married.

To buy time to get out of the situation

 

[Off-gridinwv]

You're assuming she thought she was married. That's a huge leap.

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

He may not put her away all his days. She was taken against her will, she begged him to not rape her, he did it anyways and threw her out afterwards. Don't eisegete the passage. She didn't say she was married. She was humbled/violated/desecrated. Not married. There was sex but no covenant.

Calling that rape a marriage is absurd and not scriptural. Pure conjecture. Disgusts me.

Nick, the majority of scripture teaches a man marries a woman by going in unto her, which if we handle scripture wisely those are the ones we base our doctrine on. Your trying to use a few passages where the woman belonged to someone else to base your doctrine on. In the example your giving the woman belonged to her father,the same goes when a man marries someone else's wife, it's not lawful for him to have her . Would you like me to show you all the scripture where in the context of marriage is a man going in unto a woman? I would also like for you to show me where in the context of marriage a man makes a covenant with a woman.

 

[frederick]

I would also like for you to show me where in the context of marriage a man makes a covenant with a woman.

Mal. 2:14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

 

[Off-gridinwv]

That's

Mal. 2:14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

That's not what God's inspired Word says sir. You better get the right Bible

 

[Joleneakamama]

In 2 Sam. 13 it appears Tamar thought so. She was pretty upset at Amnon putting her away.

Tamar tried to talk him out of it (such a thing aught not to be done in Israel) but her later comment was more the emotional damage done by him loathing her afterward. Once he had, regret and self contempt caused him to treat her badly. This is what caused Tamar to be upset. Her brother went from adoring her, to despising her.

 

[The Revolting Man]

A post that I made in a similar discussion on fb:

I’ve never been able to get my head around the idea that it is a marriage if it is not voluntarily a marriage.
If two people fail to restrain themselves, but never intended a commitment, did they just accidentally create a marriage?

I’m not saying that they didn’t, only that I haven’t become convinced that they did.

Yes, in some way they have become one, Paul is clear on that, but does that equal marriage in the eyes of Yah?

Fair question. I do believe they have triggered the spiritual obligations of one flesh. I am convinced those obligations of one flesh are the entirety of what “marriage” is in God’s eyes.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Mal. 2:14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

Well I’ll be damned. You found one. I’m not sure how this verse has eluded the conversation all these years. This is a significant development. We now have at least one verse that links marriage and covenant. I’m not entirely sure what to do with this information yet.

On one hand it doesn’t give us much information to go on. It certainly isn’t a command but it certainly is a covenant connected to a marriage. I’ll start working on how it incorporates.

 

[NickF]

It was definitely an ugly situation, nothing defendable.

But the point is that she wanted to be allowed to stay in the relationship.

She wanted to not be used and abandoned. She wanted to have a proper marriage and said so. Instead he raped her and did NOT take her as his woman. This act of forced sex on the woman and subsequent NOT taking her as a wife was an egregious affront as the text shows.

I don't think the text shows she necessarily wanted to marry him, but she definitely did not want to be taken forcefully, or put out.

Well I’ll be damned. You found one. I’m not sure how this verse has eluded the conversation all these years.

You haven't done a word study on the word covenant. That's how it's eluded you lol

This is a significant development. We now have at least one verse that links marriage and covenant. I’m not entirely sure what to do with this information yet.

You go look and see if there are other instances of someone entering a covenant before sealing the relationship with sex.

On one hand it doesn’t give us much information to go on. It certainly isn’t a command but it certainly is a covenant connected to a marriage. I’ll start working on how it incorporates.

Do that word study.

 

[Off-gridinwv]

One? Just one? How about Gen 16:3,4; 30:4; 38:8; Lev.21:3 Deut.21:10-14; 25:5, Joshua 23:12, 2Sam.20:3; 1 Chron.2:21; Matt.19:1-12; Luke 2:36; 1Cor.7:9,34. The majority wins.

 

[NickF]

One? Just one? How about Gen 16:3,4; 30:4; 38:8; Lev.21:3 Deut.21:10-14; 25:5, Joshua 23:12, 2Sam.20:3; 1 Chron.2:21; Matt.19:1-12; Luke 2:36; 1Cor.7:9,34. The majority wins.

Perfect! Majority wins! This is the way!

 

[frederick]

That's

That's not what God's inspired Word says sir. You better get the right Bible

Sure, here it is in the version the New Testament writers quoted from. καὶ εἴπατε Ἕνεκεν τίνος; ὅτι Κύριος διεμαρτύρατο ἀνὰ μέσον σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον γυναικὸς νεότητός σου, ἣν ἐνκατέλιπες· καὶ αὕτη κοινωνός σου καὶ γυνὴ διαθήκης σου.

 

[Off-gridinwv]

Sure, here it is in the version the New Testament writers quoted from. καὶ εἴπατε Ἕνεκεν τίνος; ὅτι Κύριος διεμαρτύρατο ἀνὰ μέσον σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον γυναικὸς νεότητός σου, ἣν ἐνκατέλιπες· καὶ αὕτη κοινωνός σου καὶ γυνὴ διαθήκης σου.

Sorry sir not going to derail this thread

 

[FollowingHim]

@Off-gridinwv, I agree this thread should not be derailed into an argument over which version of the Bible is the best. But I am curious what you meant with your first statement, that this was not what God's Word says. The KJV says "covenant", the Hebrew says beriyth (which means covenant), and the LXX says diatheke, (which means covenant). So all three of the Bible versions that somebody points to and rightly or wrongly says "that one alone is God's inspired word" agree on this point. So I really don't know what you meant. Can you clarify that briefly?

That's not what God's inspired Word says sir. You better get the right Bible

 

[Off-gridinwv]

@Off-gridinwv, I agree this thread should not be derailed into an argument over which version of the Bible is the best. But I am curious what you meant with your first statement, that this was not what God's Word says. The KJV says "covenant", the Hebrew says beriyth (which means covenant), and the LXX says diatheke, (which means covenant). So all three of the Bible versions that somebody points to and rightly or wrongly says "that one alone is God's inspired word" agree on this point. So I really don't know what you meant. Can you clarify that briefly?

Sure. The KJB says in Malachi 2:14 "the wife of thy covenant. This is the same covenant spoken of in v5 and 8. The context of this passage is the Israelites were putting away a fellow covenant believer and marrying a heathen woman. Now there's nothing wrong with making covenants, I'm just saying a covenant is not what marries you to someone. Thanks.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

To buy tim

To buy time to get out of the situation

Well it would not have been a valid attempt to buy time, since Amnon could have simply told her that he was making her his wife. Nice try.