0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion

[Daniel DeLuca]

What makes you think these were instances of sex outside of marriage? Just because these men were bad husbands does meant they hadn’t incurred the obligations and responsibilities of husbands.

Oh I don't disagree that they had the responsibility to become the husband of those women. Shechem even attempted to do so.

 

[Euripi Dias]

This issue has been thrashed out many times, and never gets anywhere. Instead, everyone keeps reiterating the same points over and over in different ways and becoming more entrenched in their individual views, often without fully understanding the position of those with differing views. I don't want to have such a debate again. Instead, I would like us to all work together to carefully define each position and to have every point explained clearly, once, and in a place that is easy for people to find. Then anyone can refer to these threads as a resource and use them as the basis for their own research, or for writing a document on the topic.

To structure this clearly, I have started several threads, each with a specific purpose.

0) This thread is for general discussion, keep debate to a minimum but if it must happen it goes here. If in doubt, post here. This is the primary discussion thread.

Then I have three additional threads that exist simply to collate the scriptural evidence supporting each position. No discussion of other positions is to occur in those threads. Each should ultimately have each point made once, comprehensively but efficiently, so they are quick to read while carefully elaborating the position. To achieve this, I will delete any posts that stray off-topic, and may do some trimming if some points become too repetitive.

I see four basic answers to "When does marriage begin?", and I have a thread for each position.
1) Sex forms a marriage (if you have sex you are married by default, unless you were ineligible to marry)
2) Covenant forms a marriage (marriage is formed by contract / agreement / covenant / consent, sex may then occur within marriage)
3) Possession / Either forms a marriage (if you have a woman and nobody else objects, she's your wife)
4) Both form a marriage (only once you have a covenant, and have consummated it with sex, are you married).

If there are any other basic positions that should be added to this list, tell me here. If one of these needs to be redefined, tell me also. I'm not structuring this discussion to achieve a particular outcome, I have no agenda here. I'm structuring it simply in an attempt to actually be able to address the topic without dissolving into yet another back-and-forth debate that goes nowhere.

Past threads on this topic for reference (and to see the previous arguments this topic has caused!):
What constitutes marriage?
Profane Relationships
Genesis 2:24
Concubines... just a bit of mental jousting
Sex, marriage & emotions - ramblings of a FW

Related, could be useful:
Language affects our ability to think
One flesh

Very good your question and text on the subject.

Exodus 22:16 and Deuteronomy 22 28
28 When a man finds a virgin girl, who is not betrothed, and takes her, and lies with her, and they are caught, 29 Then the man who lay with her shall give the girl's father fifty shekels of silver; and because he humbled her, it shall be his wife; he shall not be able to put her away all her days.Numbers 30
According to these texts, the woman and the man bond in the first sexual act with the virgin woman, only the girl's father can annul this marriage to protect the daughter from a bad marriage (Numbers 30 and context of Exodus 22). So marriage begins very simply. The bible says that marriage is for life.

 

[steve]

According to these texts, the woman and the man bond in the first sexual act with the virgin woman, only the girl's father can annul this marriage to protect the daughter from a bad marriage (Numbers 30 and context of Exodus 22). So marriage begins very simply. The bible says that marriage is for life.

But, interestingly, only if they are caught.

 

[Euripi Dias]

But, interestingly, only if they are caught.

Yes. it is because in the biblical standard one must marry a virgin. getting caught is only if you don't obey the first rule. in this case, because they disobeyed and were caught, they must marry

 

[steve]

it is because in the biblical standard one must marry a virgin

It is best if a woman marries as a virgin, but not being a virgin doesn’t make her unmarriageable.

 

[Euripi Dias]

É melhor que uma mulher se case virgem, mas não ser virgem não a torna incasável.

sim, você conseguiu. 1 Coríntios 7:28 Mas, se te casar, com essa atitude não pecas; da mesma forma, se uma virgem se casa, ela também não comete pecado por isso. No entanto, os que se casam enfrentarão muitas dificuldades nesta vida, e eu as pouparia.

1 Coríntios 6:16 Não sabeis que aquele que se une a uma prostituta é um só corpo com ela? Pois como está escrito: "Os dois se tornarão uma só carne"

O que eu disse foi que, segundo a Bíblia, um relacionamento começa com sexo. Uma carne começa fazendo sexo com uma mulher. Ou seja, o homem tocou na virgem, já está unido a ela, é casado e o pai da moça aceitou o casamento o casamento é válido é válido

 

[Euripi Dias]

It is best if a woman marries as a virgin, but not being a virgin doesn’t make her unmarriageable.

yes, you made it. 1 Corinthians 7:28 But if you marry, with that attitude you don't sin; likewise, if a virgin marries, she also does not commit sin by it. However, those who marry will face many difficulties in this life, and I would spare them.

1 Corinthians 6:16 Do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For as it is written: "The two shall become one flesh"

What I said was that, according to the Bible, a relationship starts with sex. One flesh begins with having sex with a woman. That is, the man touched the virgin, he is already united to her, he is married and the girl's father accepted the marriage the marriage is valid is valid

 

[Euripi Dias]

It is best if a woman marries as a virgin, but not being a virgin doesn’t make her unmarriageable.

You are right. Sorry for my spelling mistakes English is not my main language

 

[tahaarfan]

This issue has been thrashed out many times, and never gets anywhere. Instead, everyone keeps reiterating the same points over and over in different ways and becoming more entrenched in their individual views, often without fully understanding the position of those with differing views. I don't want to have such a debate again. Instead, I would like us to all work together to carefully define each position and to have every point explained clearly, once, and in a place that is easy for people to find. Then anyone can refer to these threads as a resource and use them as the basis for their own research, or for writing a document on the topic.

To structure this clearly, I have started several threads, each with a specific purpose.

0) This thread is for general discussion, keep debate to a minimum but if it must happen it goes here. If in doubt, post here. This is the primary discussion thread.

Then I have three additional threads that exist simply to collate the scriptural evidence supporting each position. No discussion of other positions is to occur in those threads. Each should ultimately have each point made once, comprehensively but efficiently, so they are quick to read while carefully elaborating the position. To achieve this, I will delete any posts that stray off-topic, and may do some trimming if some points become too repetitive.

I see four basic answers to "When does marriage begin?", and I have a thread for each position.
1) Sex forms a marriage (if you have sex you are married by default, unless you were ineligible to marry)
2) Covenant forms a marriage (marriage is formed by contract / agreement / covenant / consent, sex may then occur within marriage)
3) Possession / Either forms a marriage (if you have a woman and nobody else objects, she's your wife)
4) Both form a marriage (only once you have a covenant, and have consummated it with sex, are you married).

If there are any other basic positions that should be added to this list, tell me here. If one of these needs to be redefined, tell me also. I'm not structuring this discussion to achieve a particular outcome, I have no agenda here. I'm structuring it simply in an attempt to actually be able to address the topic without dissolving into yet another back-and-forth debate that goes nowhere.

Past threads on this topic for reference (and to see the previous arguments this topic has caused!):
What constitutes marriage?
Profane Relationships
Genesis 2:24
Concubines... just a bit of mental jousting
Sex, marriage & emotions - ramblings of a FW

Related, could be useful:
Language affects our ability to think
One flesh

very good , appreciated