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The Modern Church

OttoM

OttoM

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The mosaic law is still profitable for training in holiness and righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Mosaic Law is Holy:

Romans 7:12

But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

Therefore, if a man wants to pursue multiple wives, and isn't under a "forsake all others vow," and if he meets the Creator's guidelines, then by what authority can the modern Christian church call him a sinner or forbid it? By calling the man a sinner - he'd be calling Jesus a sinner by association; and Jesus' own Holy Law would condemn him. This is why I'm not part of any church. Orthodox. Protestant. Or Catholic. "Come out of her my people." I'm not going to risk drinking the cup of wrath that comes with being associated by such an institution. I'm sure there were many decent Israelites/Jews that lived in Jerusalem when it fell. They wanted to cling on to the religious system of the pharisees. And over a million perished.

John 12:42
Many people did believe in him, however, including some of the Jewish leaders. But they wouldn’t admit it for fear that the Pharisees would expel them from the synagogue.

Nothing New Under the Sun. People are still clinging onto their religion. "The Middle Man." When Jesus specifically calls his followers to come to him directly. People that have the Holy Spirit have zero concern for what men think of them. But their concern is what God thinks of them:

Romans 2:29
And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
 
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Earth_is- said:
This is why I'm not part of any church.
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What does this mean, in practice? Do you meet with other believers, in accordance with Hebrews 10:24-25?
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
If not, why not, given this is clearly commanded (and for good reason)?
If so, is this not an assembly / ekklesia / "church"? So in what way are you not part of any church?
 
FollowingHim said:
What does this mean, in practice? Do you meet with other believers, in accordance with Hebrews 10:24-25?
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
If not, why not, given this is clearly commanded (and for good reason)?
If so, is this not an assembly / ekklesia / "church"? So in what way are you not part of any church?
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I was referring to the three major divisions of Christian churches today -- Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox. Those religious institutions. Not the people inside those churches. Not the actual body of Christ -- "ekklesia" or assembly of believers.

And I'm perfectly aware there's possibly many people inside these three churches with the Holy Spirit, but their loyalty and final authority comes from Jesus. Not the pastor or pope. Their focus is spreading the good news of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. But in some of these places it's also possible sick people come in, and they end up being in worse shape than before they entered. That's because the foundation of that church isn't built on the rock - which is Lord Jesus.

I've seen the hypocrisy of some of these places -- they preach we're not under the law, but when it comes to the 10% tithe all of a sudden it's a requirement; even though it came from the Mosaic law. Or they preach a watered down gospel with no real repentance.
 
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Which is why people keep splitting off and making new churches - like you're doing. That's how the history of the entire church reads, and especially of the Protestant branch which I presume you have come from. People seeing just what you see, standing up for what is right, making a new church - and then a hundred years later, when that new church has been compromised, someone else leaves it to make yet another one. Or fifteen new ones. :)

It doesn't mean you're not part of any church. It just means you think you're in the right one, even if that right one is just in your own house.
 
FollowingHim said:
It doesn't mean you're not part of any church. It just means you think you're in the right one, even if that right one is just in your own house.
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Too true! ...and funny!!
 
Ditto for us, we were part of what was supposed to be the most literal church on the planet, the independent baptists 🙄

they are no different to any hierarchical church system, errors up top just bleed down the the bottom.

Start local independent home churches in these last days, it is the best way, in my
humble opinion.
 
TheGodlyMarriage said:
Start local independent home churches in these last days, it is the best way, in my
humble opinion.
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I would avoid any church that’s fornicating with the government for tax exempt status. The reason is they have to make concessions for this perk. There’s certain things they can’t talk about. Unfortunately, most churches are tax exempt with the government. If they aren’t tax exempt - and if they don’t require 10% gross income donations - then it’s unlikely they can operate. But if we read the New Testament - we would notice scriptures like “church meeting in households.”

Another church I don’t understand is “kjv only.” I would venture to say this is idolatry - no different than bowing down to statues. Why? Because the KJV is simply a human translation of the original words of the Holy Spirit given in Greek. And there’s not one human translation that’s perfect. Only the Holy Spirit is perfect.

Being blessed by our Lord and Savior to be in a position to add wives is an amazing blessing. Actually - even having your heart open to this truth is a blessing. You’re sharing your entire household with people that love Christ, and neighbor. And that household can get pretty big. You’re adding to God’s kingdom souls and what’s even better is having a neighbor with like minded views and position to add wives.
 
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Earth_is- said:
I would avoid any church that’s fornicating with the government for tax exempt status. The reason is they have to make concessions for this perk. There’s certain things they can’t talk about. Unfortunately, most churches are tax exempt with the government. If they aren’t tax exempt - and if they don’t require 10% gross income donations - then it’s unlikely they can operate. But if we read the New Testament - we would notice scriptures like “church meeting in households.”

Another church I don’t understand is “kjv only.” I would venture to say this is idolatry - no different than bowing down to statues. Why? Because the KJV is simply a human translation of the original words of the Holy Spirit given in Greek. And there’s not one human translation that’s perfect. They all do a superb job. But not one is perfect. Only the Holy Spirit is perfect.
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Totally agree, I run TGM off grid.

KJV only and KJV Inspired are two different animals, KJV inspired is a laugh, i have found multiple translation errors in the KJV.

I am KJV only, as it requires the least amount of times i need to goto the greek or Hebrew, although saying that i always go to the original texts now to confirm doctrine.

Now, there are some corrupt versions, such as that evil one that states Christ was born of sin, those i wouldn't use as fire starters...
 
TheGodlyMarriage said:
Totally agree, I run TGM off grid.

KJV only and KJV Inspired are two different animals, KJV inspired is a laugh, i have found multiple translation errors in the KJV.

I am KJV only, as it requires the least amount of times i need to goto the greek or Hebrew, although saying that i always go to the original texts now to confirm doctrine.

Now, there are some corrupt versions, such as that evil one that states Christ was born of sin, those i wouldn't use as fire starters...
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It’s all good to have favorites in terms of translations. But as long as you understand no translation is perfect, and if there’s a contradiction go with the original Greek given by the Holy Spirit. I use many different English translations, and currently have no favorite. The kjv is a beautiful translation especially in some verses. But in other verses it can be hard for the modern young English reader to grasp. So something like MEV would be better to start with imo.
 
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Earth_is- said:
It’s all good to have favorites in terms of translations. But as long as you understand no translation is perfect, and if there’s a contradiction go with the original Greek given by the Holy Spirit. I use many different English translations, and currently have no favorite. The kjv is a beautiful translation especially in some verses. But in other verses it can be hard for the modern young English reader to grasp. So something like ESV would be better to start with imo.
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Kind of agree and kind of dont

Luke 2:33 KJV And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:33 ESV And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him.

I cant go with any version that says Jesus was born of the sin of man
 
TheGodlyMarriage said:
Kind of agree and kind of dont

Luke 2:33 KJV And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:33 ESV And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him.

I cant go with any version that says Jesus was born of the sin of man
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The ESV would be more accurate when comparing to the original Greek:

πατὴρ - patḗr

That same Greek word is used in other places for “Heavenly Father.” But it can also be used just for “earthly father” like in Mark 9:24:

And straightway the “father” of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

I think the kjv in this instance is better at explaining the verse, but the ESV is more accurate. Because the Greek does indeed say father. Doesn’t mean biological father. Because Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and by the power of the Most High God. Therefore did not inherit the original sin. But nonetheless - Joseph was Jesus’ father on earth. Not biological father ofc. But husband to Mary and provider for his family. Ofc the Heavenly Father and Jesus are the true providers. Philippians 2:5-7 comes to mind:


Philippians 2:5-7​

​

New Living Translation​

​

5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave, and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form.​

​

​

 
Earth_is- said:
The ESV would be more accurate when comparing to the original Greek:

πατὴρ - patḗr
That same Greek word is used in other places for “Heavenly Father.” But it can also be used just for “earthly father” like in Mark 9:24:

And straightway the “father” of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

I think the kjv in this instance is better at explaining the verse, but the ESV is more accurate. Because the Greek does indeed say father. Doesn’t mean biological father. Because Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and by the power of the Most High God. Therefore did not inherit the original sin. But nonetheless - Joseph was Jesus’ father on earth. Not biological father ofc. But husband to Mary and provider for his family. Ofc the Heavenly Father and Jesus are the true providers. Philippians 2:5-7 comes to mind:


Philippians 2:5-7​

​

New Living Translation5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave, and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form.​

​

​

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That all depends on which Greek version your reading.....
 
In other words @Earth_is-, almost all Greek manuscripts say "Joseph", only a tiny handful say "father". This is a very good illustration of the concern that the handful of outlier Greek texts that have been found and selected for the majority of modern translations (the United Bible Society version) may truly have been written by heretics who may have wished, in this case, to introduce sufficient wriggle-room to doubt Jesus' divinity.

The main reason for the KJV's accuracy is that the New Testament was translated from Greek manuscripts that are much closer to the majority consensus than those used by most modern translations. Not perfect, but much closer.
 
FollowingHim said:
In other words @Earth_is-, almost all Greek manuscripts say "Joseph", only a tiny handful say "father". This is a very good illustration of the concern that the handful of outlier Greek texts that have been found and selected for the majority of modern translations (the United Bible Society version) may truly have been written by heretics who may have wished, in this case, to introduce sufficient wriggle-room to doubt Jesus' divinity.

The main reason for the KJV's accuracy is that the New Testament was translated from Greek manuscripts that are much closer to the majority consensus than those used by most modern translations. Not perfect, but much closer.
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Is there a website that shows the majority of the Greek that the KJV uses?
 
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FollowingHim said:
In other words @Earth_is-, almost all Greek manuscripts say "Joseph", only a tiny handful say "father". This is a very good illustration of the concern that the handful of outlier Greek texts that have been found and selected for the majority of modern translations (the United Bible Society version) may truly have been written by heretics who may have wished, in this case, to introduce sufficient wriggle-room to doubt Jesus' divinity.

The main reason for the KJV's accuracy is that the New Testament was translated from Greek manuscripts that are much closer to the majority consensus than those used by most modern translations. Not perfect, but much closer.
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couldn’t have said it better 👍
 
Earth_is- said:
Is there a website that shows the green

Is there a website that shows the majority of the Greek that the KJV uses?
Click to expand...

I sometimes use this link, although i do not know the source content so I cannot validate its authenticity

Chapter 1 · Matthew · Byzantine Majority Greek New Testament

Matthew 1 in the Robinson and Pierpont edition of the Byzantine Majority version of biblical text.
biblicaltext.com biblicaltext.com
I know Blue Letter Bible uses the majority Greek, I use that mostly
 
Blue Letter Bible presents both the Textus Receptus (which is what the KJV was translated from, and is very close to the majority consensus text), and something they call the "Morphological GNT" which is the Nestle-Aland / United Bible Societies version which most other translations are based on. The BLB interlinear automatically uses the TR if you're reading KJV, and the M-GNT if you're reading the ESV or another such version, but both texts are available on-screen at the same time if you look around, one above and one below the interlinear.

So here the TR is above the interlinear, and used in the interlinear (with "Joseph"), while the M-GNT is at the bottom of the interlinear for comparison (with "father").
www.blueletterbible.org

Luke 2 :: King James Version (KJV)

Luke 2 - And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org
 
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