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On Orthodoxy

Mojo

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male

Has anyone ever taken a deep dive into the liturgy, practices, history of the Orthodox churches?

The near identical practices to temple (then later synagogue) worship is fascinating. The priestly dress, altar, incense, prayers, holy of holies, court of the gentiles, architecture and layout....fascinating.

Video is long, but it’s truly an eye opener.

*note: I am neither orthodox nor trying to promote them, but I do admire their stands against modernism. Their adherence to male centric practices are to be admired in this crazy world.
 
Explain
Mystical or psychogically/spiritual dependence?

I just trip out on this video. I’m too low church to ever go for this brand but for the historically inclined, it’s so amazing to see what Second Temple worship was most likely like.

Remember that most of the earliest followers of Jesus were still going to the Temple and engaging in all those rites on Sabbath and then partaking or meals in the evening (considered Sunday).
 
Me too. It just something I heard one of their podcasters say and he didn’t go into detail about it but he seemed adamant that it was some kind of a doctrine that the church hierarchy was a type of husband to the people of the church.
I think I see what you/he are saying.

Church: the organized leadership (bishops, presbyters, metropolitans...)
Assembly: the faithful believers attended to by the priests.

That is alluded to in the video. They see the sacerdotal element being passed down from OT to the modern day priesthood. They acknowledge the priesthood of the layman, but just not for the Eucharist or liturgy (symbolic of temple sacrifices and service only the levitical priesthood could do). The laymen minister to the world (prayer, evangelism, good works, etc).

Is that the dependence? There’s not enough priesthood of the believer?

It does seem rather patronizing, but when you think about it, the Levitical priesthood was to be kadosh. They were not like the rest of Israel. That’s what makes this all fascinating. They are essentially a historical time capsule showing what life was like for many first century Christians. Insert a bloody and burning lamb and...near identical 2nd temple worship.
 
I think I see what you/he are saying.

Church: the organized leadership (bishops, presbyters, metropolitans...)
Assembly: the faithful believers attended to by the priests.

That is alluded to in the video. They see the sacerdotal element being passed down from OT to the modern day priesthood. They acknowledge the priesthood of the layman, but just not for the Eucharist or liturgy (symbolic of temple sacrifices and service only the levitical priesthood could do). The laymen minister to the world (prayer, evangelism, good works, etc).

Is that the dependence? There’s not enough priesthood of the believer?

It does seem rather patronizing, but when you think about it, the Levitical priesthood was to be kadosh. They were not like the rest of Israel. That’s what makes this all fascinating. They are essentially a historical time capsule showing what life was like for many first century Christians. Insert a bloody and burning lamb and...near identical 2nd temple worship.
My problem with it is that there’s only one husband at that level. The church, in all of its forms is the bride. The guy I heard might have been misstating the case and I might have misheard it but it really struck me at the time.
 
My problem with it is that there’s only one husband at that level. The church, in all of its forms is the bride. The guy I heard might have been misstating the case and I might have misheard it but it really struck me at the time.
No. You probably heard correct. For them, the “church” is the institution and they don’t buck the institution because it’s seen as an apostolic representation and who would defy one of Christ’s chosen apostles? That’s the division and dependence you probably are recoiling from. Most of us here are not very institutional.
 
My biggest problem with the Orthodox is that they consider the church to be some kind of a husband to the assembly.
That is a problem with all churches. Pastor worship, or pastors claiming authority over the men in the congregation.

It should be more like rule of law. YHWH's law and His will is the authority, other men just hold each other accountable.

YHWH's original intent was for every man to "hearken to His voice" and be a priest.
Priestcraft in churches inserts other men where that scriptural chain of command has no gap. YHWH, Christ, man, woman/household.

This paper kinda got into a look at it.
 

Attachments

That is a problem with all churches. Pastor worship, or pastors claiming authority over the men in the congregation.

It should be more like rule of law. YHWH's law and His will is the authority, other men just hold each other accountable.

YHWH's original intent was for every man to "hearken to His voice" and be a priest.
Priestcraft in churches inserts other men where that scriptural chain of command has no gap. YHWH, Christ, man, woman/household.

This paper kinda got into a look at it.
On the whole, I don’t disagree when it comes to a man’s home and family, but there is scriptural precedent for things being decently and in order in an assembled body of believers. I do believe our independent mindedeness is more cultural than biblical sometimes. The Christian believer is part of a greater whole.

I could go on more, but that wasn’t the purpose of this thread.

No other comments on the historical connections to 2nd Temple worship practices?
 
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I was just looking at Orthodox belief in not using instrumental music in worship. Coming from church of Christ, in protestant circles we always stood out for our Acapella singing. It was interesting to see one of the older and larger groups hold to the same belief.
 

Psalm 150

150 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2;Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3;Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4;Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5;Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6;Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.
 

Psalm 150​

150 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2;Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3;Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4;Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5;Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6;Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.
The exact same thought came to my mind. There are others also, like the benefit to Saul from David's harp playing, and David's orchestra when the Ark was being moved, but the point is made.
 
Priestcraft in churches inserts other men where that scriptural chain of command has no gap. YHWH, Christ, man, woman/household.
But there is a place for authority of church elders in the church. Otherwise the church would have no structure. We would have no instructions about how to do church discipline correctly, unless there were people in the church with the authority to discipline members of the church.

Christianity is a project to build a Kingdom, to bring the whole world under the dominion of Christ. But a Kingdom - or any large organisation -cannot exist without officers, commanders / rulers of parts of that Kingdom.

We are instructed to "submit one to another". If the hierarchy is simply "Christ - man", there is nobody other than Christ for any man to submit to, and every man is his own ruler. The instruction to "submit one to another" then only applies to women and children, yet it is clearly addressed to men also. Who are the authorities men must submit to? They must exist.

I know we are all here because to a degree we are loners, we dislike authority, and one way or another have either rejected or been rejected by mainstream churches. Our personal instinct is therefore to only follow Christ under our own understanding and not submit to anybody else. But you cannot build a Kingdom like that. What you end up with is a bunch of individuals squabbling over things - as we often see here - and having no structure that is capable of growing and taking over the world for Christ.

The traditional churches have actually grown and spread in a way this movement never has - and never can in the present form - because in one way or another they have clear structures, clear lines of authority, and can function like military organisations, local governments, or companies do.

Now I know we've all had bad experiences with church elderships, so it's a hard lesson to hear, because all elders are humans and thus flawed. But the harsh reality is that unless we are willing to recognise elders in the church, and submit to their authority (because if we do not submit they were no authority to begin with - and we can't all be elders), we are not truly living a Christian life nor fully carrying out the mission given to us by our King.
 
What do you mean by that? Do you mind fleshing out your thoughts on that a little bit?

Sure.

Jesus repeatedly healed the sick on the Sabbath and the Orthodox and the Orthodoxy be damned. Jesus went out of His way to spite the Pharisees and Sadducees. He held them in contempt for putting rules and regulations and rituals ahead of caring for other people.

I don't think He could have been any clearer in His contempt for these hypocrites.
 
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