A dating daughter is a father's failure

[NVIII]

Subtitle: arranged marriages are not human trafficking

Sub-subtitle: so-called "courtship" is to dating as trunk or treat is to trick or treat, a "Christian" whitewashing of darkness (aka syncretism)

This is an opinion piece right now, but close to becoming a conviction. Before I settle my mind on it, I wanted to throw it to the group to let it get chewed up and see what comes out the other end.

My opinion is this: it is not only a father's right, but also his responsibility to arrange the marriage of his daughter. Indeed, it should have been on his mind since her birth. When a man's daughter plays the field, it is to his shame, whether it be by ignorance or not, and cultural norms be damned.

My reasoning for this is based on observation of history and the Word. I can expound somewhat, but one of the biggest reasons it's still only an opinion is that my reasoning hasn't fully come together. So, if you'll indulge me, I'd rather present the opinion and then question and object to everything you say. I have seen dating (courtship) argued for from the Word, but the attempts I have seen so far were all the same parroted blind misreadings and unsubstantiated stretching of the information provided. As a hint, please be extra creative if you are going to reference Ruth. I will say also that I believe God put all the clues in earth that we need in order to see the unseen, that is heavenly things, and so if the heavenly things have been revealed, then likewise we have a cheatsheet for understanding the things of earth.

I think anyone faced with the concept of arranged marriages easily dismisses them as impossible in this age and locality, and therefore not worth discussing, or even dangerous to talk about seriously (because of severe persecution). Seeing as this group is like a gym of Bible buffs, and being emboldened by the Word have already openly discussed socially dodgy ideas... Let's see you lift this one.

 

[The Revolting Man]

How many daughters do you have?

 

[steve]

Seeing as this group is like a gym of Bible buffs,

Guilty as charged

 

[NVIII]

How many daughters do you have?

I know what you're doing, and it's not relevant to the discussion of the truth. But, to answer your question, I have 2 younger biologic and one older adopted.

 

[steve]

I know what you're doing, and it's not relevant to the discussion of the truth. But, to answer your question, I have 2 younger biologic and one older adopted.

Knowing the lay of the land is always a good thing……

 

[mando222]

I don't actually disagree with the OP although I can't say it is to the level of a conviction for me. I think at the very least a strong argument could be made around it being wise to find a husband for one's daughter. In light of the dating scene, our culture seems obsessed with, seems like it would be a very strong case if someone were bold enough to make it .

With this topic, I don't see any explicitly stated law commanding arranged marriage but I also concede the case can be made if one were to try hard.

I actually think it is more important in our culture than it maybe even was in the past due to the current follow-your-heart messaging and rampant fornication/prostitution that is looked at not just as the norm, but as a virtue. As a father of 3 boys and 0 girls (sorry @The Revolting Man you have some daughters though right??? ) I am about 1 step removed from this topic but I can say if I had daughters this would be 100% top of mind for me from day 1. Both in preparing them for marriage, encouraging their mother in her instruction of the younger women and in scoping out the landscape for possible Godly men to be to them as christ is to the church.

 

[MemeFan]

Your daughter still has agency. What would you do if she refuses to marry your selected man or runs aways with one chosen from her own will? Would you regret your behaviour if she stops talking with you because of you insisting to choose man for her?

Better approach would be teaching how to recognize good man. Greatest duty of parents is teaching children how to make good decision because it is key to taking care of self and will be done anyway regardless of other's opinion.

By the way, we have sexual feelings and insticts for a reason. They are given us from Lord for a REASON. Are you truly considering that your logic is better that something which Lord has provided us?

If current culture is seen as problem, solution isn't arranged marriage, but early marriage. Today's Christians are idiots with waiting for marriage till 30s (first do college, prepare finance) while expecting celibacy. Go for early marriage and don't wait years for sex to happen. There is no reason for waiting long time because all revelant information can be found earlier.

 

[Bartato]

I know what you're doing, and it's not relevant to the discussion of the truth. But, to answer your question, I have 2 younger biologic and one older adopted.

It's a little odd that you distinguish the younger biological from the older adopted.

Does this indicate that you think you might be successful in arranging marriages for the younger two, but might have to accept defeat in the case of your eldest daughter?

I hope that isn't the case.

Speaking of arranged marriages, I have some Indian (Christians from India) friends whose marriage was arranged. That probably had more to do with their Indian background than Christian conviction.

Nonetheless, they are a good match, happier than most, been together more than 20 years, love each other deeply, follow Christ, and have several children.

I've also known Christian families that practiced father guided courtships. I think it was a massive improvement over culturally acceptable "dating".

 

[steve]

If current culture is seen as problem, solution isn't arranged marriage, but early marriage.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, doing them both would be the best answer, imo.

 

[mando222]

Your daughter still has agency. What would you do if she refuses to marry your selected man or runs aways with one chosen from her own will? Would you regret your behaviour if she stops talking with you because of you insisting to choose man for her?

Better approach would be teaching how to recognize good man. Greatest duty of parents is teaching children how to make good decision because it is key to taking care of self and will be done anyway regardless of other's opinion.

By the way, we have sexual feelings and insticts for a reason. They are given us from Lord for a REASON. Are you truly considering that your logic is better that something which Lord has provided us?

If current culture is seen as problem, solution isn't arranged marriage, but early marriage. Today's Christians are idiots with waiting for marriage till 30s (first do college, prepare finance) while expecting celibacy. Go for early marriage and don't wait years for sex to happen. There is no reason for waiting long time because all revelant information can be found earlier.

So one thing I decided not to do on this forum is start a doctrinal war. That said I had to say something about this. The heart is deceitfully wicked and the bible tells us as much. The whole book of proverbs is about exercising wisdom vs taking the easy road or giving in to low-resistance instincts. Yes, I think it is clear God gives us wisdom for a reason. To use it. Just because you feel sexually attracted to someone is a very poor reason to pursue them. The Bible warns about this repeatedly. (Also see almost every reference to the allure of the prostitute) Anyway, I will pull back from this for now as my goal is not to start a conflict over nitpicking.

Also fully agree with teaching daughters to recognize a good man.

 

[MemeFan]

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, doing them both would be the best answer, imo.

How much agency are you willing to give to your daughter? What would happen is you override her will and go against her interest? Welcome to hell and daughter hating you.

What is you choose wrong? She is blame you for destroying her life. Possible forget seeing your grandchildren.

All my objections are based on something obvious. Everybody makes decisions. If you think you can make decision for her, live in delusion.

 

[NickF]

Subtitle: arranged marriages are not human trafficking

I agree with this.

Sub-subtitle: so-called "courtship" is to dating as trunk or treat is to trick or treat, a "Christian" whitewashing of darkness (aka syncretism)

Maybe, but that would depend on one's definition of "courtship". My wife and I were "courting" before our engagement. And it was not dating, nor frivolous, or marked by immorality.

This is an opinion piece right now, but close to becoming a conviction. Before I settle my mind on it, I wanted to throw it to the group to let it get chewed up and see what comes out the other end.

I like a man who's willing to stand up front and get punched in the face with a grin on.

My opinion is this: it is not only a father's right, but also his responsibility to arrange the marriage of his daughter. Indeed, it should have been on his mind since her birth.

I agree in principle, in practice that is almost impossible in this day and age unless the father is very intentional to build the foundations for that paradigm from her birth through her youth.

When a man's daughter plays the field, it is to his shame, whether it be by ignorance or not, and cultural norms be damned.

100% agreed

My reasoning for this is based on observation of history and the Word. I can expound somewhat, but one of the biggest reasons it's still only an opinion is that my reasoning hasn't fully come together. So, if you'll indulge me, I'd rather present the opinion and then question and object to everything you say. I have seen dating (courtship) argued for from the Word, but the attempts I have seen so far were all the same parroted blind misreadings and unsubstantiated stretching of the information provided. As a hint, please be extra creative if you are going to reference Ruth. I will say also that I believe God put all the clues in earth that we need in order to see the unseen, that is heavenly things, and so if the heavenly things have been revealed, then likewise we have a cheatsheet for understanding the things of earth.

I think anyone faced with the concept of arranged marriages easily dismisses them as impossible in this age and locality, and therefore not worth discussing, or even dangerous to talk about seriously (because of severe persecution). Seeing as this group is like a gym of Bible buffs, and being emboldened by the Word have already openly discussed socially dodgy ideas... Let's see you lift this one.

I'll present a brief version of how things went with me and the wife of my youth.
I was 18, she was 9 when our families became friends. I didn't know she existed, she thought I was "soooo handsome".
Fast forward, I was 24, she was 15. And both sets of parents thought we would be good matches for each other. They subtly dropped hints and asked what we thought. We were both horrified to even consider the other due to the respective ages. But nevertheless we both paid more attention to the other out of morbid curiosity for why our parents would say something so crazy. Bear in mind neither of us knew anything about what the other had been told or was thinking.

I was interested in another young woman at the time, she was in her twenties.

Through mutual interests, I became friends with her parents and spent a lot of time with them discussing life, scripture, the world, homesteading, and helping them with projects at their place. Catie was in full control and responsibility over the kitchen at this time and was an AMAZING cook at 15. So I noticed that much but didn't want to wait another 3+ years to even think about dating her, plus I was interested in someone else so no need to think about it much.
Fast forward almost a year and she was still 15, about to turn 16 and the thing with the other woman fell through. That day I had this inexplicable need for some southern cooking. (I was missing her cooking something fierce)

So after finishing that job in Oklahoma, I went home and straight to her parent's house that evening to visit with her parents. Not to eat supper with them. Of course they invited me to eat and I got that itch scratched and it was sooooo good.

I think that was the day I decided... "Well I'd waited that long to get married, what was another 4 years?"

So I started paying more attention, and being more charming. Then when she was 16, after much prayer and permission from her parents. Asked to court her. Dating with intent, courtship, whatever you want to call it. The only physical touching allowed was holding hands and a hug goodbye. My own standards were that there was to be no kissing until the wedding ceremony. She prevailed upon me to bend on that rule because she didn't want her first kiss to be in public like that. So we decided no kissing until betrothal/engagement.

In our state it is legal for a 17 year old to marry with parental consent. So we did! And 13 years later we are still blissfully married and loving each other more every day. 3 wonderful sons and two thriving businesses.

Call that courtship, call it arranged marriage. Or something in-between. But we both had agency in the decision, and both sets of parents came up with the idea in the first place and gave their full and heartfelt endorsement of the match from before day 1.

 

[NickF]

How much agency are you willing to give to your daughter? What would happen is you override her will and go against her interest? Welcome to hell and daughter hating you.

What is you choose wrong? She is blame you for destroying her life. Possible forget seeing your grandchildren.

All my objections are based on something obvious. Everybody makes decisions. If you think you can make decision for her, live in delusion.

Dude, chill out. No need for all that.

 

[steve]

How much agency are you willing to give to your daughter? What would happen is you override her will and go against her interest? Welcome to hell and daughter hating you.

What is you choose wrong? She is blame you for destroying her life. Possible forget seeing your grandchildren.

All my objections are based on something obvious. Everybody makes decisions. If you think you can make decision for her, live in delusion.

Evidently in your world this concept is an impossibility. Go ahead and move on to another thread, we won’t be needing you here.

 

[Joleneakamama]

It was my own aversion to the whole idea of dating (going out and breaking up) that made me pray and just ask to wait for my husband.
All our children seem very serious. After hearing that we were sure and commited in just 3 and a half months, they have been very reluctant to even express interest in people.

It doesn't keep them from marriage, but since that is the goal there is no "dating" going on.

They are all looking for like minded partners. Not wasting time with the wrong sort. The norm in my family was waiting for marriage. Same in my hubby's family. We expect our children to choose the same.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think @NickF has illustrated an excellent middle way in his own life story. There are obvious advantages to arranged marriage. However, there are also obvious ways it can cause conflicts. But the daughter and her parents working together can be expected to find a much better husband for her than the daughter working alone. Of course, the same could be said for sons.

I should point out that the wife I have was certainly not my parents choice. I asked her father's consent before asking her to marry me, yet I was doing this over the objections of my parents, who could not see in her what I saw in her. I have said before that if my parents had chosen me a wife, she would have been a good wife - but not the same wife. Of course, I could have married both the hypothetical wife my parents chose AND @FollowingHim2... As I'm the son, not the daughter, this is not the exact same question. But my general point is that I don't think parents always automatically know best, they are human and can err also. God can reveal His plans to the young people themselves and not to the parents. Or vice versa. This is why a middle road of cooperation between the child and parents in this important project is most likely to yield the best results, as everyone truly does have something very valuable to contribute to this.

 

[MemeFan]

I agree with this.

Maybe, but that would depend on one's definition of "courtship". My wife and I were "courting" before our engagement. And it was not dating, nor frivolous, or marked by immorality.

I like a man who's willing to stand up front and get punched in the face with a grin on.

I agree in principle, in practice that is almost impossible in this day and age unless the father is very intentional to build the foundations for that paradigm from her birth through her youth.

100% agreed

I'll present a brief version of how things went with me and the wife of my youth.
I was 18, she was 9 when our families became friends. I didn't know she existed, she thought I was "soooo handsome".
Fast forward, I was 24, she was 15. And both sets of parents thought we would be good matches for each other. They subtly dropped hints and asked what we thought. We were both horrified to even consider the other due to the respective ages. But nevertheless we both paid more attention to the other out of morbid curiosity for why our parents would say something so crazy. Bear in mind neither of us knew anything about what the other had been told or was thinking.

I was interested in another young woman at the time, she was in her twenties.

Through mutual interests, I became friends with her parents and spent a lot of time with them discussing life, scripture, the world, homesteading, and helping them with projects at their place. Catie was in full control and responsibility over the kitchen at this time and was an AMAZING cook at 15. So I noticed that much but didn't want to wait another 3+ years to even think about dating her, plus I was interested in someone else so no need to think about it much.
Fast forward almost a year and she was still 15, about to turn 16 and the thing with the other woman fell through. That day I had this inexplicable need for some southern cooking. (I was missing her cooking something fierce)

So after finishing that job in Oklahoma, I went home and straight to her parent's house that evening to visit with her parents. Not to eat supper with them. Of course they invited me to eat and I got that itch scratched and it was sooooo good.

I think that was the day I decided... "Well I'd waited that long to get married, what was another 4 years?"

So I started paying more attention, and being more charming. Then when she was 16, after much prayer and permission from her parents. Asked to court her. Dating with intent, courtship, whatever you want to call it. The only physical touching allowed was holding hands and a hug goodbye. My own standards were that there was to be no kissing until the wedding ceremony. She prevailed upon me to bend on that rule because she didn't want her first kiss to be in public like that. So we decided no kissing until betrothal/engagement.

In our state it is legal for a 17 year old to marry with parental consent. So we did! And 13 years later we are still blissfully married and loving each other more every day. 3 wonderful sons and two thriving businesses.

Call that courtship, call it arranged marriage. Or something in-between. But we both had agency in the decision, and both sets of parents came up with the idea in the first place and gave their full and heartfelt endorsement of the match from before day 1.

This wasn't arranged marriage. You have both choosen each other. Her parents were just matchmakers (still done today, often by friends).

 

[NVIII]

Your daughter still has agency.

Does she? Through social or legal constructs she could grasp power and assume agency. But is that scriptural? Is that the order that God created? That's where I'm approaching this from, not looking at the distortion painted on top, but rather what is underneath and supposed to be. But, I'm glad you brought it up, because this is the opinion held by most, that it is her responsibility, her hunt, her choice, and her prize. I see that as being inconsistent and even antithetical to God's design, not to mention the implications that basis sets for a marriage.

Does this indicate that you think you might be successful in arranging marriages for the younger two, but might have to accept defeat in the case of your eldest daughter?

It's fascinating that you picked that up. That was not what I was trying to say, but it is true. It is my struggle with her that forced my awakening on this particular topic and made me start searching for the truth. In discussions with her, she asked for a compromise: "arranged dating". That was when it dawned on me that courtship may be a compromise and not the truth.

Compromises work. We are born, raised, and live in a compromised culture, after all. @NickF I really appreciate the account of your courtship. @Bartato I like hearing of arranged marriages in India. Sometimes we hear arguments against polygyny that go something like, "Look at all these bad examples. Or it may be right, but it's not for our time." We like to respond logically and say, "Look at all these other good examples of polygyny. Or look at all the bad examples of monogamy." Of course, the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter. What hath God said?"

In this case, I can see the order He created, but as @mando222 said, can't think of an explicit command to that effect. But, then I see how ill-equipped young people, especially females, are for making these choices, being hormonally and emotionally driven, and I just wonder if we are missing something. I think of the sending my daughters out as sheep among wolves, and I shudder. What father does that but one who doesn't care?

I'm starting to ramble some of my disjointed thoughts on this topic, so I'll stop for now. Thank you all for your replies so far.

 

[MemeFan]

Dude, chill out. No need for all that.

No way.

There is possibly that some people will decide that they, as fathers, have 100% right to make irreversible decision with potentially very damaging consequences for affected person without any input of affected person. And they with claim this is because Bible claims they know better. Similar crap with covid vaccine because experts know better that affected person. And have more interest that affected person in making right decision.

If father has right of final decision then only question remanining is how much force to use (what is enforcement mechanism of his court?). Because if daughter refuses father's decision, how will he move her in desired direction? Just talks, or maybe grounding? Or good beating? Situation can easily escalate in child abuse.

I'm certain people here are trying their best to be good parents, but crappy people truly exist. And this idea provides moral justification and way to abuse their children more.

No, I'm not overreacting because there are real dangers and this idea can finish wrong.

 

[MemeFan]

Does she? Through social or legal constructs she could grasp power and assume agency. But is that scriptural? Is that the order that God created? That's where I'm approaching this from, not looking at the distortion painted on top, but rather what is underneath and supposed to be. But, I'm glad you brought it up, because this is the opinion held by most, that it is her responsibility, her hunt, her choice, and her prize. I see that as being inconsistent and even antithetical to God's design, not to mention the implications that basis sets for a marriage.

There is nothing cultural or social in agency. It is wholly biological.

Agency is nothing more than capability of person to make decision and try to implement that decision. Everybody is born with this.

Yes, Lord commands us to obey His commandments and women to obey their husbands. It is agency which enable us to disobey. Without agency there is no free will and we are all programmed biological machines.

Regarding her choice, it is obvious that she should be included in marriage decision. It is part of human nature to want to influence what is happening to us.