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Agape Marriage

CecilW

CecilW

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Real Person
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This is a "Thought Provoking" piece, rather than a "Positional" piece. I am floating a concept for discussion. Agreed? :)

At the moment, I'm reading The Walk of the Spirit - The walk of Power, by Dave Roberson (whoever HE is ... ignorance showing). In the chapter entitled, "The Divine Progression to Agape Love", he opines...
Most marriages are based on phileo, not agape. The spouses love each other for what they can receive from each other. If marriages were always based on God's selfless, agape kind of love, there would be no more divorce.
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Sounds good to me. Also, sounds like it needs to start with the husbands, as we LEARN agape from our Head Jesus, and His Head, YHWH. So it is fair that our wives and children learn agape from us.

Which brings me to this interesting idea...

What if a Patriarchal Christian man truly WAS tied into God, and operated from Agape? And what if a single lady among us (regardless of age, education, financial resources, state of health, personal physical beauty, blah, blah, blah) was convinced of that fact and simply approached him at a retreat, saying, "I need an agape-loving husband / head / master / lord (little ell). There are no moral impediments. Will you take me as yours, please? I commit to learn and practice agape, and will adjust to your family as needed (moving, etc.)"? That plain and simple. No extensive ahead-of-time courtship. No long "getting to know you".

Would he trust his channel of Supply sufficiently that concerns about cash flow would not interfere? Would he trust the outworking of agape strongly enough that a place could be made for her and hers? Could she? Regardless of possibly widely differing interests?

How about an existing wife who has had sufficient time and exposure to understand and either accept or reject agape herself?

Agape is God's greatest tool! Would it categorically, in a pretty full manifestation, be sufficient for us?

If a single sister decided to trust God, and came to a retreat with the determination, "Dunno how, dunno who, but I will accept God's choice for me, and I'm leaving that retreat as part of a family!!," would she be a fool or a saint? Setup for yet another gosh-awful mess or entered into the God-soaked adventure of a lifetime?

Whaddaya think? I think it is POSSIBLE that it could be the good stuff. Possible. And just that simple and unemotional to start, with emotions coming in time as the FRUIT of Love being worked out.

"Arranged marriages" with God as Yenta. :lol: (NOT in the least suggesting a board of elders, or some leader among us, who decided who would hook up to whom in true FLDS fashion! Unh-unh!!!)

1Jn 4:12, 18 claim that if we Love one another, God's Love is made PERFECT in us. Further, that there is no fear in Love! Perfect Love! Available to we stuttering, stumbling humans. Would PERFECT LOVE be sufficient grounds for a truly solid marriage?

Romantic love is built on emotions. God's Love, Agape, operates out of principle.

Emotions change. We "fall out of love". We've "had it", "had enough", "had our fill". We "fall in love" with someone else, stud or bimbo. Not very STABLE when the winds of strife blow, and they do!

Principle doesn't change. It just goes on, step after step, regardless of winds and rising waters and sunny days and typhoons and earthquakes. It has days and nights of hot romance, days and nights of patient toleration, fun, fights, and everything in between. Doesn't matter. The emotion of the moment has no authority over the principles. THEY issue the orders, which are always, "Love. Do it. Now."

Intriguing thoughts ... (Or perhaps I'm completely crazy, along with Steve :lol: )
 
I turned the page. At first thought the subject changed. Then kept reading, and found it even more scarily apropos to the astounding question of Divine arranged marriage above...
Agape love says, "Be merciful just as your Heavenly Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). How merciful is our Heavenly Father? Well, you and I were lost and headed for hell. We had nothing to bargain with. We had absolutely no right to approach God. We were not capable of bridging the gap on our own.

But God had mercy on you and me. We didn't deserve and couldn't earn His mercy; we had no way to approach an infallible God. But He approached us in His mercy. He crossed that void with Jesus' blood.

So how do you obey Jesus' command to be merciful even as the Father is merciful? Jesus provided the guidelines in Luke 6:27-38.

When someone sues you for your coat, you give him the cloak you are wearing. When he slaps you on the cheek, you turn the other cheek. When he takes away your goods, you give him more than he asked for. When he despitefully uses you, you pray for him and forgive him. When he hates you, you keep walking in love.

Why? Because you are having mercy on him. You are bridging the gap with the blood of Jesus when the person doesn't deserve it. That is agape!

The result of walking in this agape kind of love is revealed in Luke 6:38:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together; and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
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Jesus was saying this: "If you will be children of the Most High, who is merciful even to the evil and the unthankful, and give agape love to others, then My Father will restore whatever you may have lost - pressed down, shaken together, and running over. While the thief is taking your money out the back door because you extended mercy, My Father will march in the front door with agape and restore to overflowing all that you lost!" That's why agape cannot fail (1 Cor. 13:8)!

However, walking in agape love is easier said than done. For most of us, if someone came against us with a lawsuit, our first reaction would be, "Oh yeah? Well, go ahead and sue me - but you'll know that you have been to court, buddy!"

So how do we ever attain that place of agape where we are merciful just as the Father is merciful?
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Imagine if we took that attitude towards someone who asked to enter the family? Even if she turned into a harridan and WAS just trying to grab a piece of our pie, NO PROBLEM! Agape has us covered!

(If y'all wanna hear more, I can scan more of the chapter...)
 
aphesis paraptoma said:
A biscuit is a cookie but also a scone. We do not have gravy and biscuits, we have gravy and scones. We put jam and fresh whipped cream on our scones, not anzac biscuits, when consuming a scone with jam and cream we hold our little fingers at 45 degrees to the tea cup especially when invited to Buckingham Palace.
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Ok. But what on earth is an anzac? :?

Aaaaah! Goto http://www.anzacbiscuit.net/. Quite interesting history AND recipes!
 
Thats what I'm talking about!!! If we are mature christians and not googily eyed youngins, I believe this is biblical.
Not sure the scripture,, but didn't a couple of women go to the man and ask him for his name so they would have
a head. The question, can we leave off all the humanism of soulmate and lust at first sight ( ok a little sarcastic),
and ask, with a little elder guidance, (I said A LITTLE) I think I could. Either that or we stay under the authority
of our mature elders in our virtual church ( this is my church).
The Lord has put on my heart to be a wise woman for the younger women and it would definetely be better to
be under my head so that I make sure my wisdom is God's wisdom since us women tend to be overly emotional.
I believe I can trust the Lord to lead me where he wants me and love grows where it is nurtured.
dede
 
Cecil, this is an amazing idea. It actually made me teary eyed with its beauty. Plus using anything using something from Luke 6 used to prove a point will win me. It is my favorite chapter in all the Bible. Here's the thing though, someone as shy as me, how would I overcome the shyness to walk up to someone? Would that prayer and belief enable me to do that? I have never walked up to a man in my life, even for a date. I know I seem like I must not be shy, but I am. On the other hand, you are right it is like an arranged marriage with God as the Yenta so to speak. I am going to really think and pray on this and attempt to build up that much trust in God....Thank you!!!

Jen M
 
Hi Cecil. Your reading and sharring has brought pen to paper for me. Walking by faith and trusting in the Lord is a charater of a godly man, and thus we should be open to such arrivals. However, we are also called not to be unequally yoked, a command that escaped Solomon and thus casued him great grief. Our only true concern should be whether or not the woman/women (see 7 at the door) is a believer, something easily said, and sometimes easily communicated, yet time and observation (fruit inspection) will confirm. Let us be of faith and open, but let us also be patient and observant, just as these women should be of this man (and for that matter his existing family).

Just my thoughts.
Ray
 
lights12 said:
using something from Luke 6 used to prove a point will win me. It is my favorite chapter in all the Bible.
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Hah! I dislike it intensely! NOT comfortable at all! This summer, I went through a time of coming back to it DAILY, hoping it had changed, I was so blooming FURIOUS at some folks.

And make no mistake, they'd well and truly EARNED my fury!

But the durn chapter just wouldn't change. It's that principle thang. And God's word had it's way in me. Now I love the stinkers, even though they continue to, um, QUALIFY for Luke 6's intervention. *sigh*

So it's ok. But Luke 6 is STILL not too comfortable... *wry grin* (Yeah. I keep going back to it! STILL says the same durn thing!)
 
Nice to hear from you RRP.

I agree as to unequal yoking. And Solomon definitely blew it.

Here's the thing. I grew up, more or less, with my 1st wife. Same church, same church school, etc. Best friends for 6 years before marriage. Still good friends 12 years after separating. But when I said, "The Bible is clear, so I'm open to God's leading", and she said, "I don't care WHAT you find in the Word, I KNOW right from wrong, and that's wrong,", were we equally yoked?

My current wife and I had been talking 6 weeks when we met and 12 when she moved in. We were NOT wildly in love. Both kinda messed up with issues. But willing to try agape, I guess, though I didn't have the words at the time. 9 years later, we're still together, growing love step by step. Her background was Mennonite, mine SDA. Are we equally yoked?

Have we had to adjust to each other? You bet. Still are! But I had no doubt we were following God's leading. Still don't. Despite vast differences.

And how would I judge, anyway? How long would I have to observe the lady in question? 6 years didn't work. 6 weeks by phone and IM did.

I am wondering if the message about agape is that if someone PRESENTS themselves as compatible in terms of agape, and following Christ, but turns out not to be and you refused to climb into the judgment seat and couldn't know, apparently God has your back!

When I came to Christ asking Him to be my Head, did He say, "Well, let me observe you for a while and see if you are good enough"? Or did He say, "Ok. Hop into the yoke with me. I'll make it as easy on you as I can"?

I think the latter. Should I, as an entirely sold-out disciple, do less?
 
So just to clarify, are you saying that families should "incorporate" these women, or "marry" them? I can see where a man might be willing to take care of a woman in need and let her be part of his house, but if you expect him to fulfill the duties of a husband to her, also, that might make him balk. Men do need to be attracted to the women they marry, but that isn't the case if they are just covering them as the head of the household they live and serve in.
 
CecilW said:
lights12 said:
using something from Luke 6 used to prove a point will win me. It is my favorite chapter in all the Bible.
Click to expand...

Hah! I dislike it intensely! NOT comfortable at all! This summer, I went through a time of coming back to it DAILY, hoping it had changed, I was so blooming FURIOUS at some folks.

And make no mistake, they'd well and truly EARNED my fury!

But the durn chapter just wouldn't change. It's that principle thang. And God's word had it's way in me. Now I love the stinkers, even though they continue to, um, QUALIFY for Luke 6's intervention. *sigh*

So it's ok. But Luke 6 is STILL not too comfortable... *wry grin* (Yeah. I keep going back to it! STILL says the same durn thing!)
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I am crazy for the Sermon on the Plain and the Beatitudes according to Luke, maybe I enjoy the words of Luke because he was in the medical profession like me. lol. It matches my beliefs spiritually, and from a Poli/Sci standpoint as well. Only 1John Chapter 4 7,8 is more important to me as scripture and that is how I know that we can all love each other and all that can love are of God. It is also how I know I could be in a marriage with more than one wife because it is love that would bring us together and I don't mean goofy, kid love I mean the love of Christ.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Jen M
 
Diener said:
So just to clarify, are you saying that families should "incorporate" these women, or "marry" them?
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Not "shoulding" anyone, Laurie. Floating an idea for comment.

Seems pretty extreme, but then perhaps we are called to extreme discipleship, wherever God leads us.

I can see where a man might be willing to take care of a woman in need and let her be part of his house, but if you expect him to fulfill the duties of a husband to her, also, that might make him balk. Men do need to be attracted to the women they marry, but that isn't the case if they are just covering them as the head of the household they live and serve in.
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Fair enough, and thank you for a very valid observation. Feel free to bring on more. Naturally, in the nature of discussion, I'll try to take the other side...

Attraction is one of those changeable things, is it not? I was attracted to 14 yr olds, when I was 14. I'm not, now at 50. Attraction changed.

When I decided to marry my first wife, I was definitely not in love with her. Just acknowledged she was the best girl I knew so decided she was for me. Not that she wasn't attractive, mind. I'd just gotten used to looking at her as a sister. We called each other best enemies, and folks who didn't know were ready to swear we were siblings due to the way we squabbled. So I asked God to make me fall in love with her, as a man oughta live his wife. Odd prayer for a 15 yr old, I know, but one that God answered with a vengeance! I'm still in love with her, and attracted to her, 12 years after we separated.

All this to speculate ... if a man was SOOOO willing to BE Christ in this world (he is, after all, a branch of that VINE,) could/would God take care of that? Make her become attractive in his eyes? Perhaps not entirely the first day, perhaps as a process, but once done, thoroughly done?

If the rest of this made sense, wouldn't that? Does Christ say to me, "Well, I know you need a Savior, a Head, Someone who will be crazy about you for the rest of your life. But, so sorry. YOU'RE NOT ATTRACTIVE TO ME. Zits, bad habits, bad BREATH! You really need a makeover. Come apply again after you lose 30 or 150 lbs, and get a HAIRcut, for goodness' sake!"? Thank God, He doesn't. I STILL wouldn't qualify!

I know I'm pushing a thought pretty hard. Maybe even too hard. But it is interesting. MAYBE even worthwhile. MAYBE even VALID! :eek: *gasp*

Would I have faith to try? No, not "try", "commit and do"? Not sure. But it's got my gray matter buzzing in kaleidoscope colors!
 
I hear ya, JenM. I just don't necessarily LIKE what is so important to me (Luke 6) when it is leading me through such "real" places, ya know? *wry grin*

On the other hand, knowing that you are behaving like God, and visibly BEing His child, IS pretty alluring.
 
mo.nurse said:
Not sure the scripture, but didn't a couple of women go to the man and ask him for his name so they would have a head.
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Yup. Isaiah 4:1. 7 women, apparently pretty much at once.

Pretty daunting occurrence for most men, I should think!!! Pretty distressing for the women as well. And how would the economics work in that situation, 7 wives at once?!

Only thing that COULD make it work well, to my mind, would be full blown Agape!
 
Cecil,
Good thoughts. I see this concept as a profound application of agape love, something I fear most of us as Christians have not yet experienced in our human lives. Yes, we receive it from God, but do we practice it or see it practiced around us? Rarely. I once told one of the BF posters, on another format, "I would like to see the time when any godly, single lady, could approach any godly man of character in the local church and ask him to be her head and covering". She thought it would be wonderful and I still think that would be in keeping with NT practices regarding agape love. The biggest hang up that I see is that the "Real Thing" of godly agape love is still so strange to most Christians. We have such a difficult time separating it from sensual love. My experience of coming to love a godly christian woman, a widow with four children is what brought me to the realization of Biblical marriage and the acceptability of plural marriage. My love for her was not at all physically oriented (could have become so), but was truly loving as God loves. Unfortunately, no one around me believed me and the normal tragedies followed.
If only we who know the Lord could love as He does.
BTW, Cecil, like your new profile pic.
 
CecilW said:
This is a "Thought Provoking" piece, rather than a "Positional" piece. I am floating a concept for discussion. Agreed? :)

Which brings me to this interesting idea...

If a single sister decided to trust God, and came to a retreat with the determination, "Dunno how, dunno who, but I will accept God's choice for me, and I'm leaving that retreat as part of a family!!," would she be a fool or a saint? Setup for yet another gosh-awful mess or entered into the God-soaked adventure of a lifetime?

Whaddaya think?

Intriguing thoughts ... (Or perhaps I'm completely crazy, along with Steve :lol: )
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Is there a guarantee of no tomahawks or rolling pins??? :lol: :lol:

Also like the new pic but where did Gnomeo run off to??
 
I agree with you that God can do anything! I have experienced that in my own life!

I went through a depression (which is basically the absence of all "good" feelings) and asked God to put all the good feelings back in me (hope, enjoyment, satisfaction, happiness, passion, etc.) and He did it, slowly, over 6 months. It taught me a lot - one of which was not to judge anyone for the trials God puts them through (I used to think that people could just "snap out of it") and the second of which was that ALL GOOD THINGS come from God. Even all those feelings we take for granted everyday.

So, yes I believe a man will come to love and want a woman if he asks God to make it so. But are you setting up the woman to feel unloved before that? Will she feel sad that God had to be beseeched so that she could be loved by this man? Now, I know, and you know that all love comes from God anyway, so weather we ask for it or it is just there, it is still from the same person, but people can get hung up on the details, you know? I touched on this with my post to Froggie's intro. The man has to really be earnestly praying and wanting that change to happen or great pain can be the result.

Why not let God change the heart before all those expectations are set up? Why rush into things?
 
CecilW wrote:
No extensive ahead-of-time courtship. No long "getting to know you".
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Possible but not probable....
I haven't seen very many successes in respect to short courtships. I'm sure there have been some but I've mostly seen them end in tears. I know there aren't any guarantees either way but I think taking the time to learn about a potential spouse prior to marrying them is still the wisest course of action.

P.S.
Love the new picture, Cecil ! :)
 
Is there a guarantee of no tomahawks or rolling pins??? :lol: :lol:

Well there are two rolling pins in this household. We use them like swords. And ummm on the tomahawk... that is still getting repaired. :eek:

And that is one of my alll time favorite pics of Cecil .aka sir bumbleberry.
 
John Whitten said:
I would like to see the time when any godly, single lady, could approach any godly man of character in the local church and ask him to be her head and covering.
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YES! Much less disruption, moving, etc. In the meantime, ...

What I think I'm hearing is that it sounds like a nice ideal, but maybe not too practical -- that having more get acquainted time seems preferable. Even in JohnW's suggestion, above, the woman would have had more opportunity to become acquainted with the man's character via church, etc.

I guess that makes sense. After all, how is she to tell in one weekend retreat that the man is completely sold out on agape, not simply putting up a good front, although a secret wife beater?

So maybe it makes a nice ideal, but we, being human, had best exercise more care? With pure agape, it would likely work, but who is that good?
 
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