Ambition/Desire

[Slumberfreeze]

I've decided to start a new thread b/c this this is aimed at not whether or not being more attractive male-wise is likely to increase your chances of scoring multiple wives, but the only peripherally attached question of "What should we even want, and is it ok to desire more?"
Imma do this word by word like I alluded to on that thread.

OREGO (G3713) - Translated desire or covet after or reach out after. Presumed to be related to the noun Oros, meaning hill or mountain. Possibly in the sense of 'wishing to heap up'.
This word is used in the positive sense twice and negatively once. Paul tells Timothy (1Ti3:1) that a man who DESIRES the office of a bishop, he desires a good thing. (That second desire is epithymia.. which we'll get to.)
The other positive is Heb 11:16 speaking of the better country those that died in faith desired, not having received their promises while living.
And the negative? 1 Timothy 6:10.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, (orego) they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The only negative orego in the bible, is desiring money which led some to err from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

EPITHYMIA (G1939) mostly translated lust and it's related verb EPITHYMEO (1937) are both translated ust, covet, and desire. From epi and thymos. (over-wrath? over-fierceness? desire fiercely? I dunno..)
Positives: 11/55
Jesus' desire to eat the passover with the disciples before He suffers. (Luke 22:15)
Paul's desire to die and be with Christ (Phillipians 1:23)
Paul's desire to see the Thesselonians' faces (1Thess2:17).
The desire of OT prophets and righteous men to see Jesus and His works (Matthew 13:17)
(Twice in Luke this form of desire refers to a starving man desiring food of low quality to keep from starving) 15:16 and 16:21
The unfulfilled future desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man (Luke 17:22)
The Spirit's Lust against the flesh (Gal 5:17)
The desire to do a bishop's good work (1 Tim3:1)
The desire to see others show all diligence in ministering to the saints (Heb 6:11)
The angel's desire to look into the mysteries of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit (1Pet 1:12)

Negatives: WOOO 44/55. 4/5ths of the time this desire is listed negatively... so:

I'm going to just cherry pick what supports the gist of what I'm saying. I invite you with some amusement to look into the ones I omitted, while at the same time assuring you that I haven't left out anything that I would find inconvenient to my position.

Mark 4:19 : The lust for "other things" are listed along with the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches as the weeds that choke out the implanted seed in the parable of the 4 soils.
Like a bajillion lusts of the flesh and the world...
Col 3:15 listed right before covetousness, in the things that need to be mortified. This connection with covetousness (pleonektas) will be explored later
Serving our own diverse lusts is listed a handful of times as an evil activity.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
(I feel like this deserves a special mention. The ambition to gather wealth, power, and status in order to attract wimmins is somehow to be reckoned separately from the desire of the flesh and the desire of eyes, and the pride of life. Are you sure about that? Allow me to confess something. The idea of having multiple women appeals very much to the desire of my eyes and my flesh. The idea of having the power and status and wealth it takes to attract multiple wimmins appeals very much to my pride. The status of having all this plus the wimmin that would prove me beyond a shadow of a doubt to be the alpha-est alpha wolf among my peers also appeals to my pride. Maybe it's only because I am a broken, fleshly man in a forum full of ascetic spiritual men who only desire to be caretakers of all the poor neglected wimmins?)
Rev 18:14 Babylon will finally be denied of all the STUFF it increased and lusted after. Babylon is very much the city of the ambitious!
Acts 20:33 and Romans 7:7 make it clear that this desire is coveting, if what you desire belongs to someone else.
James 4:2 Your desires will be unfulfilled by God, no matter how much you pray, if it is to be spent on your own pleasures

Imma cut this post short because i have a thing to do. I intend to do Zeloo and pleonektos later.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Zeloo (G2206) Zeal, fervent, covet, envy
Positive:
Coveting the best spiritual gifts (1cor12:31) especially prophecy (1cor14:1, 39)
Pauls jealosy to present the Corinthians as a chaste virgin to Christ (2cor11:2)
It is good to be zealous for good things, and not just when Paul is watching (Gal 4:18)

And my cherry picked negative?
James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

And it looks like I lied. I'm not actually going to go into pleonekta or pleonexia, translated covetousness; or desiring more, or eager for gain.
And the reason I'm skipping it is because both words are UNIVERSALLY negative. There are no instances of "eager for gain" or "desiring more" that are positive in any passage. Please double check my math, if you like. (G4123) an (G4124) if you're not inclined to take my word for it.

I'm torn about mentioning this next part, because it feels like I'm being condescending by pedantically teaching basic bible truths to grown and seasoned bible scholars, but take this in the spirit that it's intended. Condescend to me, if you will.
The purpose of wealth is not to heap it up for ourselves for the purpose of being able to afford more women. in fact, for those of us who think of it this way, women ARE a form of wealth. I would put forth that of all the things I own, RainyLondonFog is my prized possession. I would part with my house, cars, job, and sad assortment of toys, if I could retain her. But just like I can't take my car with me to heaven, NEITHER CAN I TAKE MY WIFE. She ceases to be exclusively mine the moment one of us dies. Women are indeed a form of wealth.(More than wealth obvs, but wealth also) Certainly a blessed thing to end up with... but not a great thing to chase after.
Matt 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Our concern should not be with climbing life's status ladder. Our concern should be with helping those who are already in need, and helping them advance past us, if possible.
God doesn't have a problem with making certain of His servants rich. Nor powerful. Nor does he mind just absolutely drowning them in women on occasion. But He's not over-pleased with a servant who grasps after such things. A covetous servant needs to be re-educated about Whom he serves, and how He wishes to be served. A faithful servant is worth his hire.
I know this is likely to be a not very popular idea, but I propose that the best way to ACQUIRE is to tell the Father what you'd like. He already knows, but He instructs us to ask. And then LEAVE IT. He called us all to a mission generally, and each of us to a mission specifically. Be about that! Ask him repeatedly, if you will, but don't pretend like He hasn't said that He won't block you if He decides you're covetous, and don't presume that He needs your help to give you something He's purposed to give you.
Work hard and make that money, advance when you have opportunity, but for crying out loud use that increase to look after the widow and the fatherless, and relieve the poor and the oppressed. Don't go off mission!
I feel like I just lost someone with the widow and fatherless bit. Remember that some widows are 60+ and meet the specifications for receiving aid... without an invitation to share your last name....

 

[SonoLumen]

You strummed my doubt chords with this one so I figured I'd give it a reply in an attempt to intellectually alleviate my discordant blues.

Something happened to me when I found out polygyny was allowed and it has yet to be revealed where it ends. I started trying harder at everything. My whole mentality about life and possibilities fundamentally shifted (good ol paradigm shifts). Yes, I want more money as leverage for being able to potentially get a second wife and have more children, and I am excited at the prospects. I plan on being more literally fit then most, make more money then most, and I actually do want more children then most. In all of this I consider myself unequivocally bound to Christ. So now what do you think; is my desire for a second wife an idol before God? Judge me at your own risk, not even I know the answer to that. Its that lack of knowledge that in some ways keeps me in faith, I need him at every juncture.

Now on the other side of that shift is a sea of folks claiming in one way or another "caution". I consider this filed within that general theme. Noted and considered, I think there are many areas of my life where I can apply that advice.

At issue for me is faith and law. My faith has been with me since I came to Christ in my parents household, the law has just fundamentally shifted. Is my faith now weakened in a world where MORE is potentially a possibility? As a man of faith I have to deal with this. I feel as if any argumentation against the "pursuit" of such things fundamentally needs to come from the practical and not from the moral. Ultimately, I am making the claim that my level of faith in Yahweh paves the path for me to put my all into this, keeping both his headship over me and mine constantly at the core. WHEN I mess up, he will be there for his Glory. WHEN I am successful I believe he will delight in finding a good gift appreciated in faith.

I am not willing to conceptually condemn in any way shape or form a man of God actively seeking a another wife (or any of the things that would help him get one, money, fitness, game theory, etc). With that said, he might be in a situation where he is actively condemning himself in his own heart or mind, or in active disobedience, but that is between him and God and I don't have the insight to judge such things.

With all of that I'll leave you a short artistic poetic summary.

Tame my flesh, remind my eyes
to Yahweh look, past worldly prize.
Let faith do, let work provide.
My maker knows, I cannot hide.
Told I'm free, yet wait to see.
I see I'm free, that's enough for me.

 

[FollowingHim]

The general theme from the many verses you have quoted Slumberfreeze, is that it is right to covet anything that will help us better fulfil the mission YHWH has for us on earth (e.g. to receive spiritual gifts, to meet with other believers), but wrong to covet anything that is simply worldly wealth.

The grey area is desiring worldly things (money, wives etc) in order to use them to better serve YHWH.

If you have an orphanage and have hundreds of hungry kids to feed, it is obviously perfectly right to "earnestly covet" a truckload of food, despite it being simply physical worldly wealth, because your intention is to use it to feed the fatherless, an extremely righteous goal.
If you lead a bible study for the orphans, it is probably reasonable to covet a new bible, or other resources, that will directly assist you in this goal. But this is getting fuzzier because you could probably still do this job with a single battered old bible, plenty of Christians throughout history have managed with less, so there is an element of worldly desire in wanting to have the latest and greatest resources.
If you need help to care for all these kids, it is also probably entirely reasonable to covet a wife, or even a whole team of wives, to be your helpers in this ministry. The intent is entirely righteous. However it could be argued that all you need is more ministry volunteers, and wanting them to be wives is simply a matter of fleshly lust. But I think that in this circumstance most of us would agree that it would be entirely righteous to covet a wife, depending on the actual motivation of the heart.

If you don't have a massive orphanage, you just have a "normal" Christian life, your focus is on serving YHWH, and you believe that for any reason an additional wife would help you to serve Him better, where is the line? When is it right to covet a wife to better serve Him, or when is serving Him simply an excuse you are using to justify the fact that you covet a wife for your own purposes?

Personally, my focus is on serving YHWH. I have only a vague understanding of His purpose for my life, I tend to discover the next step the moment before I have to take it. But I believe that from the very limited understanding I have of His plans, I will need more money (I'm not talking great wealth here, just some more resources) and likely more wives in order to fulfil that purpose. I could be wrong. But I know that with greater physical assets (in all senses of the word "assets") I could do more for Him in various ways. So I believe that my desires for physical assets and wives are righteous. But I am a very fallible human so could be even mistaken about the righteousness of my own motivations.

I can also see how marriage can offer many benefits to women, so see that desiring a wife can mean desiring to help one of YHWH's daughters in the way that He would wish them to be provided for. To do that, I'll need a certain amount of financial and other assets also. So desiring a wife or the assets I need to support her can also be a righteous desire in order to help her. Or, given I don't actually know what help she might require, the idea that I would be helping her could be simply an excuse to make my own fleshy desires sound righteous.

 

[aineo]

The general theme from the many verses you have quoted Slumberfreeze, is that it is right to covet anything that will help us better fulfil the mission YHWH has for us on earth (e.g. to receive spiritual gifts, to meet with other believers), but wrong to covet anything that is simply worldly wealth.

I am thoughtful about this statement. While I agree conceptually, I am not sure the Bible fully supports this. I guess what I am saying goes back to a statement Slumberfreeze said:

God doesn't have a problem with making certain of His servants rich. Nor powerful. Nor does he mind just absolutely drowning them in women on occasion.

I am thinking, with regards to wives, of Solomon and David, particularly David, for whom we are told in 2 Samuel 12:8 that God would have given him more wives if those he had were too little. The problem, at least in this case, is that David was pursuing that which was not his, and I would contend he was pursuing another wife on his own strength, not the Lord's. This is similar to something FollowingHim said:

it is probably reasonable to covet a new bible, or other resources, that will directly assist you in this goal. But this is getting fuzzier because you could probably still do this job with a single battered old bible, plenty of Christians throughout history have managed with less, so there is an element of worldly desire in wanting to have the latest and greatest resources.

The question that comes to me is whether we really need that new Bible to witness to others. Are we seeking it because we feel a new Bible will help us better proclaim His greatness in place of us simply proclaiming His greatness? In other words, is our faith in the new Bible or in YHWH?

I think of Psalms 37:4 (WEB) "Also delight yourself in Yahweh, And he will give you the desires of your heart." I would suggest if we delight ourselves in YHWH, the desires of our heart will be those desires that glorify Him.

Personally, my focus is on serving YHWH. I have only a vague understanding of His purpose for my life, I tend to discover the next step the moment before I have to take it. But I believe that from the very limited understanding I have of His plans, I will need more money (I'm not talking great wealth here, just some more resources) and likely more wives in order to fulfil that purpose. I could be wrong. But I know that with greater physical assets (in all senses of the word "assets") I could do more for Him in various ways. So I believe that my desires for physical assets and wives are righteous. But I am a very fallible human so could be even mistaken about the righteousness of my own motivations.

I can also see how marriage can offer many benefits to women, so see that desiring a wife can mean desiring to help one of YHWH's daughters in the way that He would wish them to be provided for. To do that, I'll need a certain amount of financial and other assets also. So desiring a wife or the assets I need to support her can also be a righteous desire in order to help her. Or, given I don't actually know what help she might require, the idea that I would be helping her could be simply an excuse to make my own fleshy desires sound righteous.

This is so familiar to me that I could have written much of it on my own. In fact, it helped me see my own situation a bit more clearly - thank you for that, Samuel, though you couldn't possibly have known. I have a vision which I believe God gave me, and one that will certainly take financial resources, and it would be easier to accomplish with a larger family. Even so, I certainly don't think the way God is going to use me is limited to this vision. As Slumberfreeze said:

Work hard and make that money, advance when you have opportunity, but for crying out loud use that increase to look after the widow and the fatherless, and relieve the poor and the oppressed. Don't go off mission!
I feel like I just lost someone with the widow and fatherless bit. Remember that some widows are 60+ and meet the specifications for receiving aid... without an invitation to share your last name....

Very thoughtful about this ...

 

[Slumberfreeze]

I want to respond slightly out of order, Sono,

Judge me at your own risk, not even I know the answer to that.

I do intend to answer your previous question with my best guess based solely on the information you've provided. As I have noted on the previous thread, however, if there was a chance that you and I might associate with each other IRL... for me to NOT seriously consider whether or not you're an idolater is a risk as well. Also, since this is the second time I've had judgment rolled in my direction, I feel maybe I should clarify my motivations before you judge me to be a judger for judging motivations. My purpose in these word studies and manifestos is not to judge or condemn, but to point out the specific verses and passages that you will be judged BY, by Someone to whom all authority to judge is given. So my own motivation is fraternal, as opposed to judicial, if you will.

Something happened to me when I found out polygyny was allowed and it has yet to be revealed where it ends. I started trying harder at everything. My whole mentality about life and possibilities fundamentally shifted (good ol paradigm shifts). Yes, I want more money as leverage for being able to get another wife, and I am not ashamed. I plan on being more literally fit then most, make more money then most, and now I want more wives then most, and more children as well. In all of this I consider myself unequivocally bound to Christ. So now what do you think; is my desire for a second wife an idol before God?

Well, first let me state that I know the paradigm shift of which you speak, and every impulse you've mentioned, but I cry ignorance of your possible idolatry. One of the problems of this forum is that I don't get to know your works, your godliness, your devotion. If you are out there in passionate evangelism, or generously giving of your substance, or spending hours on your knees pleading for mercy for your neighbors, I won't know it. I couldn't really know if you've put women before God... because I don't know where you've put God, you see?

What I will caution you against is covetousness. If I can unfairly paraphrase you: "Something happened to me when I found out I had a real opportunity to be a millionaire
I want to be prettier than my neighbor, I want to be richer than my neighbor, I want more women and have more children than my neighbor. "

I know the feeling! I'm by nature not a very ambitious person (read: lazy). I figured living in apartments was fine for me. I buy cars out of the dump and at auction and don't even fix them up. Just drive'em into the ground. I don't care what I look like. I like to play cheap indie games on Steam. I lift weights when my shoulder isn't bothering me because I feel like I should make some effort at maintaining my body, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at me. As I've told my wife, of all the things I own, she's all I really care about. Oh, I like my kids alright, but as far as wealth goes, I view them as kind of a sketchy investment as opposed to wealth. So when the validity of multiple wives was opened up to me, I was like "HOT DANG. You mean I could have more of the only thing that really matters to me?"

Suddenly I could understand why it might be a good idea to own a flashy car. Women like flash. They like money. They like pecs and abs.

But what about the wife that I have? Doesn't she like cars? Doesn't she deserve to be graced with rock hard pectorals at her disposal? See the thing is she followed me around with goo-goo eyes when I was just a homeless looking scrub driving a beat-up Buick I bought from my bible study leader, making $7 an hour washing cars at a dealership, living in a squat I shared with 6 other people. If anything, she deserves to know if I can pull off the mythical 8 pack way more than some rando chickie on the street.

I'm digressing slightly. My real point was, I would consider myself bound to Christ Even if I was bucking for promotions, working out zealously, and I don't know, trolling various dating sites looking for takers. But at this point I'm starting to fall among the weeds of the cares of this world. The seed of faith has grown into a plant, but no fruit will come to fruition.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

A bunch of stuff that I find hard to argue with.

My thought is that women are so varied and crazy that, (while not speaking of motivation at the mo) , that desiring another one to help with the ministry (and not be in need of overmuch ministry herself) that in order to find one that will be exactly what you need (especially out of the diseased batch that our modern culture is churning out) will be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Which is a task I think is better left (tactically speaking) to the Father. He already knows the precise location of the needle.

But in regards to motivation, I could very well see this chain of thought being, as you say, entirely righteous. In the scenarios and thought patterns that you specify, women are not the END GOAL. A man whose primary function is to serve the kingdom and is led by the Spirit cannot be faulted, whatever he does.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[A&J]

Slumberfreeze, you have many good points and I enjoy reading your thoughts on the different forum discussions and while I am limited on time now to reply with much thought and composure so will wait and read again before posting, if at all, I felt it very important to note here that not all who come here are biblical scholars....or even well versed. Please continue to post in a manner that does go deeper, does explain in basic terms and has reference. Whether I agree or disagree is of no consequence, but learning is what I value from this and you do provide a path for education.

 

[The Revolting Man]

A good rule of thumb is that it's okay to want anything as long as you don't mind if you don't get it.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

I'm pretty much on board with that.

 

[Eristhophanes]

As I read through this I see the words "covet" and "lust" being used without regard to what they actually mean according to the Bible.

The Decalogue forbids both coveting and adultery. Therefore it is not correct and will never be permissible to covet anything for any reason because coveting is a forbidden activity.

Which brings us to the point. What does the word "covet" mean? The only thing we have on point is Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21. From the text it's clear that coveting is the desire for something that does not belong to you. Your neighbors wife, his ox, his field, his house, his manservant or maidservant or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.

Then we have the word "lust." Jesus said you commit adultery in your heart when you lust after a woman, which means she has to be married. That fits perfectly with the command not to covet your neighbors wife, but perhaps it's that lust is when you go beyond mere coveting and start making scenarios in your mind. The best fit I can see on the word lust is that it combines both coveting and adultery.

However, there is no command not to desire a house, a wife, a maidservant or a manservant. The desire for any legitimate thing or ambition in and of itself is not an arguable issue, merely a matter of wisdom.

To read in the Bible where someone "lusts" for something or "covets" something is to say that the thing in particular belonged to someone else. Not available, in other words. I'm sure that if your neighbor was willing to sell his ox it was legitimately obtainable, but if he refused to sell his ox then it was no more legitimately obtainable than his wife. To desire that which is not legitimately obtainable is coveting, no matter how good a reason one might think one has for it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It is important to decouple lust from sexual desire. Certainly sexual desire can be lust and frequently is, but lust is so much more than just that and we risk a lot of so when we try to keep it to just sexual desire.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

As I read through this I see the words "covet" and "lust" being used without regard to what they actually mean according to the Bible.

I knew I shouldn't have just given the reference. I knew I should have just spelled it out. I was being lazy and now I pay the penalty. So here goes:

Acts 20:33 and Romans 7:7 make it clear that this desire is coveting, if what you desire belongs to someone else.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So this clear reference to the law uses the word EPITHYMEO to mean covet.

The lusting after a woman word (in Matt 5:28) is the exact same word. EPITHYMEO.

Which I referenced in 18 verses!!!! Along with the definition!!! Half my post was about this word, along with it's positive and negative connotations.

Why does what the bible "actually means" by this word have to come from the decalogue?

I suspect that the Torah defition carries more weight for some than the New Testament definition? That's cool, because the thread runs in a straight line.

The hebrew word for coveting in the decalogue is CHAMAD (H2530) which means: to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in and is used in the OT 21 times, both of good and bad things.

Just like it's greek counterpart, it's moral stance is dependent on the thing desired.

To read in the Bible where someone "lusts" for something or "covets" something is to say that the thing in particular belonged to someone else.

Which is false whether you're talking about chamad or epihymeo, which are the only available words to use in either testament in reference to the 10th commandment.

The best fit I can see on the word lust is that it combines both coveting and adultery.

Lust and coveting are in fact the same word in this particular context, so there's no need for us to try to fit them anywhere in relation to each other.

However, there is no command not to desire a house, a wife, a maidservant or a manservant. The desire for any legitimate thing or ambition in and of itself is not an arguable issue, merely a matter of wisdom.

Weeeeelllll.... ok. I just got done giving I think my whole opinion on that matter, so I won't take up thread space reproducing it. It would just end up being a really long winded "NUH-UH!!!"

 

[FollowingHim]

As I read through this I see the words "covet" and "lust" being used without regard to what they actually mean according to the Bible.

This entire post began with Slumberfreeze outlining exactly what they DO mean according to the Bible.

The Decalogue forbids both coveting and adultery. Therefore it is not correct and will never be permissible to covet anything for any reason because coveting is a forbidden activity.

No, it only forbids coveting what belongs to your neighbour, as you actually proceed to then outline yourself.

To read in the Bible where someone "lusts" for something or "covets" something is to say that the thing in particular belonged to someone else. Not available, in other words.

Not at all, given that we are to earnestly covet the gift of prophecy for instance, and that does not belong to anyone else exclusively and is entirely available...
I think you've just skimmed the preceding comments rather than actually reading them, slipped into the old "lust = bad" reading of English, and then proceeded to spout forth a post from that basis alone. Have a coffee and re-read what you wrote, it's uncharacteristically contradictory.

 

[Eristhophanes]

I think you've just skimmed the preceding comments rather than actually reading them, slipped into the old "lust = bad" reading of English, and then proceeded to spout forth a post from that basis alone.

No, it's not that. We see the word covet and we can compare it to the word desire. When does desiring something, which is legitimate, become coveting, which is forbidden? When the thing you particularly desire is not legitimately obtainable.

No, it only forbids coveting what belongs to your neighbour, as you actually proceed to then outline yourself.

My point is when you have a special word (covet) that just means "illegitimate desire" or "the desire for something that cannot be legitimately obtained" and you have another word (desire) that covers all the things that can be legitimately obtained,

If your neighbor owns something, let's say it's his ox, does the command not to covet forbid you from desiring the ox enough to offer to buy it? No. So the word covet can't mean a person is forbidden to desire something their neighbor has. Yet, by including the wife, we see one of that category is not legitimately obtainable. So, if the neighbor refuses to sell the ox then it is no longer legitimately obtainable and if the person continues to desire and strongly desire that ox, it seems to me that crosses the line into covetousness.

To put it another way, a man having sex with his own wife is legitimate. A man having sex with another man's wife is still sexual intercourse, but there is a special word for such sinful and illegitimate sex: adultery. We don't speak of committing adultery with our own wife, we'd use the word sex or one of its many euphemisms. I find it difficult to understand why you would use the word covet to describe a legitimate action (a desire for something that can be obtained) when it's specifically used as something that is forbidden and other words exist to specifically describe legitimate actions.

What you and Slumberfreeze are doing are two sides of the same coin. You are using the specific word which defines the forbidden kind of desire to describe a desire that is not forbidden. Slumberfreeze is trying to claim the meaning of neutral words that can be used to describe either forbidden or righteous desire are universally bad when used negatively and ignores the fact there is no word to describe the forbidden desire. The neutral words must be used because the specific term does not exist in Greek. Interestingly, while the two of you are taking different sides of the same linguistic coin, the arguments are at cross purposes.

I'm not actually going to go into pleonekta or pleonexia, translated covetousness; or desiring more, or eager for gain. And the reason I'm skipping it is because both words are UNIVERSALLY negative. There are no instances of "eager for gain" or "desiring more" that are positive in any passage. Please double check my math, if you like. (G4123) an (G4124) if you're not inclined to take my word for it.

According to this standard of Slumberfreeze, the use of covet cannot be regarded as a good thing anywhere. That is correct, his problem is he's trying to go from Hebrew to Greek and a word is missing because the Greek does not have a specific word for an illegitimate desire the way Hebrew does. We know that simple desire is not of itself illegitimate so coveting must be the subset of desire that is wrong. But when it comes to Greek, we don't have a specific word that means "the desire that is forbidden" so obviously we get words that are used that could mean something legitimate or illegitimate.

That pleonekta or pleonekteó are never used in a positive manner is irrelevant because they describe action that is well-covered by covetousness, specifically with respect to defrauding and trampling on the rights of others. These words fall into the definition of coveting but they do not encompass it. However, the desire for more that you'll see in the definitions is not sinful in and of itself. Otherwise we get: "What? Another piece of fried chicken? You SINNER! That's Coveting! You KNOW you are not to want more." Which is ridiculous.

The issue/question is judgment.

I brought this up on the last thread, challenged Slumberfreeze and he doubled down. I pointed out the passages where we are forbidden to judge one another. I pointed out the passage where we are commanded to judge as a body. I pointed out the passage where Jesus gave instruction on how that works, moving from the individual to witnesses to the body of believers. It seems clear to me that we are commanded not to judge as individuals, but are commanded to judge corporately as a church. Without addressing that point, Slumberfreeze doubled down and claimed the right to judge all on his own according to what he believes. That was my perception, anyway, he's free to clarify that if he chooses.

"What should we even want, and is it ok to desire more?" is what Slumberfreeze claimed as the subject of this thread. First, is this an arguable matter? That raises the question of whether the desire to have more is a sin.

Romans 4:15 and 5:13 are conclusive as to what sin is for everyone: violations of the Law. Romans 14:23 and James 4:17 both state that for the believer, what I will call "violations of the conscience" are sins. However, it was not given to us to judge these things in someone else.

Obviously the desire for more is not a sin, per se, in that it is not forbidden. Then comes the question of whether more of the thing desired is a sin. Obviously, if the thing desired is a sin, then the desire is likewise a sin (Matthew 18:27). However, if the thing desired is not a sin, who are we to judge? The answer is we are not to judge.

What about wisdom? Were we given authority anywhere as individuals to judge a person based on what we think is wise or unwise? I'd like to see it because I've never seen or heard of any such thing anywhere in the Bible. We are told to avoid fools, but that's not the same thing. To call something a sin when God did not say it is a sin is a violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32, adding to the Law. We each have to be clear in our own hearts but we don't get to see our neighbors heart and in these matters we are commanded not to judge.

What I see is a couple of words that can be used to describe both legitimate and illegitimate actions because the specific word for the illegitimate and forbidden action doesn't exist in Greek. And look what he does:

I'm going to just cherry pick what supports the gist of what I'm saying.

Fail. What Slumberfreeze did was prove that a word is used far more often to describe things in a negative light than a positive light. By his own logic the desire of Jesus to spend time with His disciples before He suffered was wrong... Fail. This is what is known as eisegesis, reading into the text what you want it to say.

Let's look at another cherry verse he quoted:

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

To rephrase: You desire something you cannot legitimately obtain and you don't get it; You kill in the desire to get what you want and don't get it, you fight and war to get what you want and don't get it; because instead of doing those things you should have asked for it.

That seems reasonable to me. Lusting, killing to get what you want and fighting and waging war to get what you want... all of these describe acts that are illegitimate in terms of getting what you want. Backhandedly, he's saying you didn't ask for it because it was illegitimate and you knew it wasn't yours to have. However, that verse in no way says trying to get something that is not forbidden by working hard is wrong. That verse did not say that greatly desiring something was wrong.

What if someone really wants to become a psychiatrist, so they work really hard studying to get good grades so they can get into medical school. Becoming a psychiatrist isn't wrong, is it? Maybe studying secular humanism should be considered a sin- idolatry. What about motivation. Are we to judge a person's motivation to do something we don't agree with? Perhaps the desire is simply to make money or to have the status of being a doctor. Perhaps the desire is to help people. Perhaps the desire is because the individual finds it fascinating. Perhaps (as is often the case in this area, the individual was screwed up and went into the field to figure out how to fix themselves). It doesn't matter. We were not given the authority to judge.

Interestingly, the church (not the individual, Slumberfreeze, individual judgment is forbidden) was instructed to judge with regard to six things, among them coveting. Coveting is wrong, forbidden and a sin. The church was instructed to judge as a body when it comes to that and purge the evil from among them. I think of it as to get rid of the sick ones because of my acronym.

I use the acronym RIDSIC to remember them: Revilers, Idolaters, Drunkards, Swindlers, the Immoral and the Covetous. The thing is, throughout church history (and I've seen it in modern times), 1st Corinthians 6 has been used to stamp out challenges to leadership. Revilers? Perhaps they didn't like the sermon on Sunday and said something about it. They're contentious revilers. Drunkards? That's easy- one drop of alcohol and you're on the path. Swindlers? Anyone working in banking or business or didn't give someone a good enough deal. Small town stuff. The immoral? Those are the folks who do things you might not do. The covetous? How does one display the signs of covetousness? I'm not sure. I have never actually even heard of this being a charge and i the past 20 years I've heard all the rest.

 

[FollowingHim]

Ok Eristophanes, so to summarise you believe that Slumberfreeze's analysis of the scripture is flawed simply because he refers to Greek words that are used for both "covet" and "desire", while you contend that in Hebrew these two words are separate? If so, please outline exactly what Hebrew words you are referring to, and describe the issue unemotively.

Your last post was not a calm exposition of scripture, but rather an attack on Slumberfreeze and his analysis, alongside the contention that nobody can judge so Slumberfreeze is not allowed to judge you. The tone was completely inappropriate (particularly the bolded "Fail"). Please just calmly address the root topic of this thread, and present your own analysis rather than just cutting down someone else's.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

The issue/question is judgment.

Well... the issue here is ambition/desire. I do want to do a study on judgment soon, because I'm not one hundo percent sure what the difference is between what the difference is between the judging that we aren't supposed to do in Matthew 7, and the judging that the spiritual man does to everything in 1 corinthians 2:15.

"What? Another piece of fried chicken? You SINNER! That's Coveting! You KNOW you are not to want more." Which is ridiculous.

Scripture actually draws the line slightly to the right of food. Remember that Paul told Timothy, "Having food and clothing, we shall be content." Jesus also said "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear." Jesus then goes on to acknowledge that the Father knows we need them and will provide them, providing we seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness.
And it may seem ridiculous, to call extra chicken covetousness, and maybe it is, but it is not too far a stretch to call it gluttony; which is I would say fairly closely related.

Proverbs 23:20-21 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

Proverbs 25:16 If you have found honey, eat only enough for you, lest you have your fill of it and vomit it.

I would say they are part of the same precept. As far as food goes, it's ok to desire it (not worry about it , so much) but really only as much as you need. Think of the manna they were allowed to gather in the wilderness. Enough to feed themselves for 1 day except in preparation for the Sabbath.

The account David gives in Psalm 78 of the wilderness food rebellion makes it clear that not being satisfied with the bread God provides could very well be a capital offense.

So even though the example you used there was meant to be extreme, I kind of have to double down on that one, too. Food is such a common daily thing that we rarely give it the kind of attention to call someone out as a sinner over it. But I do believe most parents have said to a child who's hoovering up all the chicken in a manner that they perceive to be more than his fair share; something to the effect of "Hey, don't be a pig". So even at the dinner table there is a sense of fair play and restriction of desire beyond what is a person's portion.

And although I've never given too much thought about the doctrine of food servings before ...

Exodus 16:18
When they measured it with an omer, he who had gathered much had no excess, and he who had gathered little had no lack; every man gathered as much as he should eat.

 

[andrew]

Guys, maybe we should just stipulate whether we're going to speak English in its contemporary sense or its original/antiquated sense when we're talking about scripture translations. "Covet" and "lust" were neutral words in 17th century English that have acquired negative moral connotations due to certain choices made by bible translators.

And I think there's a common usage issue (see Paul's usage in Rom 7:7 and 13:9) in which we use "thou shalt not covet" as a shorthand for a long list of enumerated prohibitions, but everybody knows what we meant. (Look especially at 13:9 and Paul's "and if there be any other commandment" remark. He's moving quickly....)

Just my $.02; carry on!

 

[The Revolting Man]

I used to reject word studies completely because of this very issue. I admit I've become addicted to them in recent years.

 

[UntoldGlory]

A note about practical application:

In my life, I *try* (and sometimes fail) to reflect on my desires and apply the following test. I look at the desire and determine, through meditation, prayer, and knowledge of the Bible if a given desire is likely to result in:

1) Bringing me or someone else closer to God, or to the work of the kingdom
2) Neither bring me/someone else closer nor drive me/them away, or hamper the work of the kingdom
3) Take me or someone else further from God, or hamper the work of the kingdom

If it is 1, then awesome, full steam ahead on enthusiasm and desire, still move forward in prayerful thought to ensure it doesn't attain idol status.

If it is 2, then it's probably not a bad thing in moderation, no need to stress over it but I should definitely make sure it doesn't start to edge into Cat 3. Video games/hobbies generally fall here for me. It's okay to unwind with them or pick up a new game I want, but if I'm spending inordinate amounts of time, money, or resources, then it hits Cat 3. On the other hand there are times it's edged into Cat 1 as well because it gives me common ground for speaking into some other people's lives, etc.

If it is Cat 3, then it's something I should not do and check my heart on. Even things that are generally "good" can fall under this category at times. Like worship music. There have been times I have let it become more carnal than worship, and had to check myself to refocus it to a cat 1 behavior. I think *some* things are always cat 3, but I think the majority of things are a bit fuzzier there. Wanting another piece of chicken for example I would generally put into cat 2 unless it becomes a pattern of gluttony/food idolatry.