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Amendment 2 In Fl/Prop 8 In CA

Of course not Mark, it isn't anywhere near my to study list.

Regardless even you quoted that only after every petition was exhausted was digressive action taken. This is a petition, it has not been exhausted. Nowhere and no how has doing nothing been supported, though you have not yet made a case that you are arguing for anything more than that.

I showed earlier the appalling apathy of you're restaurant argument, though it has not yet been withdrawn. I did not mince words when I said if you believe you're country to be Babylon you have failed to actually come out of it. Even the use of telecommunications lines is using it. Not voting is certainly not in any way coming out of it, you may enjoy all of its luxuries without voting. No have neither backed nor balked at that nigh insult. You talk a big game but if you set foot on a paved road you're out.

If you actually BELIEVE that you're country or you're government is the apocryphal Babylon in spite of Nero, Mugambi, Pol Pot, Stalin, and on and on though nightmarish leaders and governments then facts are immaterial. Quite frankly the belief that America is prophetic ultimate evil society is more about thinking too much of ones country then reading the signs of the time. I would hope you would have examined the policies and societies of all the worlds countries before coming to that conclusion.
 
Jesus did rally against the Scribes and Pharisses but he did not go to pontius pilot about it. Jesus openly showed their hypocracy but he did not have them arrested. No it was the scribes and pharesies that went to pontius and had jesus arrested. Jesus was confronted on whether the jews should pay taxes since scripture said not to. Jesus said whos picture is on the coin. Render to god what is Gods and render what is ceasers unto to ceaser. This Government is not Gods government These people are not Gods people. If they were of God they would do the will of God. When jesus was sent to be executed he didnt fight the government he went willingly. Jesus taught if a man take you to court give him all that you ask. Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. A man can not serve two masters. The nations of the world are but a drop in the bucket. I hope you know what that means because I dont want to explain it. Needless to say it is bad. You can either care about God and be the standard for truth in this world or you can care about this world and be corupted by it. Even a straight Board becomes warped when bound to a warped board. A straight Board never straightens the board that is warped.

John.17
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
 
You didn't read the Declaration, did you?
...Of course not Mark, it isn't anywhere near my to study list.

Then don't propose to lecture those who have from your ignorance.

The views of Six and Mark hang on the idea that the Government of America is evil
Click to expand...

Wrong. They hang on the idea that the Declaration is a statement of principle, and the Constitution is a contract. Both the principles AND the contract have been violated -- clearly and undeniably. But you wouldn't know that, either.

I showed earlier the appalling apathy of you're restaurant argument, though it has not yet been withdrawn.

Because it wasn't an ARGUMENT, it was an illustration!

I didn't correct your obtuse reaction to Joshua and Caleb, either. It was a humorous observation, fer cryin' out loud. OF COURSE they did not go into the land to return and take a VOTE. They went to confirm what God had said, and brought back a "good report". But that didn't stop them from being "outvoted" when people failed to believe God in favor of a bad report!


This distinction between authority and usurpation, and between being faithful to covenant and bearing false witness, seems to be lost on you. Ultimately it is the choice between free will and coercion. This is why socialism is a failure, and why those Founders with "eyes to see" withdrew the "consent of the governed" from a "tyrant" which had become "destructive of these ends."

You haven't done the homework.
 
And, Marichu, you asked a good question, that has been obscured by some of the smoke here.

I contend that it boils down to whether we believe what God says (about marriage, in this case), or trust in man to "redefine" it.


Abraham believed God, and it was "counted unto him for righteousness".

Joshua and Caleb believed Him, and survived to see the Promised Land. But all of Israel were consumed in the wilderness, because they "complained against Him."

God never promised that those who follow Him would not be persecuted, or even "hated for My sake". But He has warned us repeatedly to "choose this day Whom you will serve". When man, and man's 'law', is obedient to Him, there is no conflict. But when men, by their tradition, reject the commandment of God, and try to "make the Word of God of no effect" -- then, those to have ears to hear, let them hear. (See Mark 7, among other witnesses.)





"Only do not rebel against the LORD, nor fear the people of the land..." (Num. 14:9)
 
Mark,

Usurpation and Authority are not mutually exclusive concepts. To usurp is to seize by force or without legal right (or both).To that end the founders of you're country most certainly usurped authority, as would I have in the restaurant analogy by fighting the majority. Weather either force or illegal actions are justifiable in any particular case is another mater. You're trying to force an abstract dichotomy to justify inaction.

With Joshua and Caleb, they gave their view despite opposition, and as far as it goes it want a vote anyway, but a matter of whos report was believed. It should be noted that you're attempt to place voting in the old testament is contorted anyway, I should have just rolled my eyes and not commented.

The original restaurant illustration still stands. You are still advocating doing nothing or backing out instead of taking any possible action to help the outnumbered person.

Now, while you're declaration and constitution are probably very interesting reads, they are not nearly so important to the actual situation as you seem to think. Invoking them may be a persuasive tool for you're people in discussion, though even that is probably less then you'd like. The actual government you're dealing with is what it is, other than gripeing about how it isn't what you'd like or it isn't what it was do you have a reason not to try to affect it? As it sits I cant see an argument against voting other than contempt for you're government as it sits.

The Babylon of Revelation is quite evil, you used it to cite why you won't act. In that quote you very clearly opine that the American Government is evil. Explaining that you're reason for this view is that that government has deviated from its founding principle isn't arguing with the conclusion.
 
Six,

Of course, we're not talking about arresting anyone in the first place. Nor are we in any way talking about conforming. We're talking about opposing action that would hurt a great many people including many people here. Try to be a little less obtuse and a little more expedient. When percussions happen its something Christians can and will deal with, its still a good idea to stop them before they happen. Martyrs I revere, but the cult of martyrdom not so much.
 
Do what you want tlaloc. This is grace after all.
 
Hi Ok Amendmnet 2 Passed and so did Prop 8 in Cali. So in theory it's a "no" for Gay marriage and in theory a "no" for Polygyny. I really think the only people who actualy think about poly when they think of this amendment are "conservative rigth wing christians". The media just thinks it's the Gay hater's law! Do you know that Angelina Jolie and Brad pitt won't get legally married because everyone that wants to get married is not able to! But everyone that wants to get rid of their husband's first wife has no problem right Angie? ;)
 
You follow brad and angie. So does my wife. She is always on those celebrety Gossip sites. You guys should talk. That way I dont have to hear about it.
 
Well my boss leaves those magazines laying around and Angie is my same age and is one of the more thoughtful celebrities. I also find it hard to avoid at the checkout line at the market!! I like to think of these peoples' stories as metaphors for what is happending in the world at large and like everything else use them as a teaching tool for my kids (Why do you think that people want to read about these people, Jacy? Do you think that these people would be someone that you would be friends with in real life? Why or why not? Why do publishers write lies in their magazines? etc.) I can hear my kids groaning "oh no, mom, not another learning opportunity!" lol
 
Six,

Yeah, I know, but its good to talk things out.

General,

The thread itself is settled now obviously, but there are a few topics that got started that didn't see the attention I hoped.

First Sweetlissa's talk about wives obligation to each other, and second Marichu's talk about Paul Hill's actions. Does anyone want to start a topic about either of these things? I'm intrested to see what people have to say.
 
My wife is anxious to get started with the home schooling and our daughter is not even a year and a half yet (15 months) Also we are eager to get pregnant. I really want a son. Once I have one of each I wont care what I have after that. I just want a huge family. Another reason we want a son is that my wife wants her child to be the heir before I get a second wife. Once she has that all locked up she said she would feel less threatened. I can understand that. Michelle and I dont really agree on the whole voting issue either. She always says and I am paraphraseing If the country was dumb enough to let the women have that kind of authority then she is going to use it to do some good. She goes on and on about how women fought for a long time and some died to give her that right. No matter what I say to her she says the only thing that will stop her from voting is a direct order from me. And I dont have the heart to give that order. So she goes of on these political crusades and I hate to say anything because she gets so fired up about it. I love to see her that passionate. I havent the heart to take that away from her. What is amazing to me is that I married a democrat (without the pro-choice dogma or femi-nazi attitude). Man I love that woman. I remember why I married her. Writing this has brought a smile to my face.

Sorry for the segway. I got caught up in nostalgia. Thanks for listening even though it is only Slightly off topic.
 
She knows what my will is. Just as we know Gods will. God doesnt force us to do his will so why should I force her to do my will. It says for wives to submit unto their husbands not for husbands to force their wives to submit. I make known what I want and she does 85 percent of what I ask of her. Which is pretty awesome in this day and age. Also she is getting better every day. So I am going to show her some grace on this and just wait for God to work on her heart. I am in no hurry. I just need to love her she doesnt need to be perfect.
 
Sixth it is good to be a patient husband just like Jesus is with us. Good Job. I am certain she is very happy that you are the one she picked!!!
 
Hi Everyone,

What do you think about the gays getting militant on the churches out west cause of prop 8???? I think it will be overturned.
Seems our resident genuis Tlaloc predicted it right!!!!!!!
 
Those "churches" have no more business taking Caesar's license than those people who think Caesar defines marriage do. They will reap what they sow.

The "prince of this world" is running both sides of this "conflict", Marichu. No surprises here.
 
http://iperceive.net/gay-brown-shirts-i ... gregation/

Its a blog link but the news itself is reliable. There was no vote in Michigan, Mark you've very much crossed the line of talking like the friends of Job. As I said before, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to sit and do nothing.

Marichu,

I thank you for you're compliment. Reading the signs of the time and the actions of groups in different places makes it not too difficult to make predictions. Loud people and groups like Focus on the Family have more income than people, and to a great extent they don't really know what they're doing. Just try mailing them about polygamy (really, if you want to, do, perhaps it will get some people in the orginization thinking, when I did the person I was mailing got forbidden to speak to me again) I don't like them, and other probably like them even less, but they falter because of their dogmas and doctrines, they are dead on about the need for actions and solidarity. Insuffitent co-operation between Christians and even theists of all types lets secularism get further grips. The gay marriage thing crosses even that line, in that atheists have been persecuted for presenting scientific findings against gays. Many European countries are very deep into permissive insanity, Canada fell to making homesexuals protected under the hate crime act just a few years ago, and you dodged a bullet.

Ultimately revival and changing peoples hearts is the only real solution, but delaying the expansion of corrupt laws is also vital to buy time to get to people before everything comes crashing down on them like it did in Russia where secularist atheism was adopted and embraced by the Bolsheviks while our grandparents where holding their faith.

Christians can bear and be strengthened by persecution, but its just cult of martyrdom if we wish for it or fail to prevent it if we can. More importantly non Christians also suffer when people abandon God, and the more of that we can prevent the better.

Prop 8 buys every Christian in America vital time to show love and reason to their neighbours and make people wonder what we have. The above mentioned church got it right. Bless those who persecute you. Now we just have to pray someone, somewhere in the world is preparing to spark a real revival that will wash some of the brokenness in the systems away.

In 1780 it was recorded that the person of distinction always thought Christianity was throughly debunked and known to be false, and all that was left was to ridicule it. Thats years before darwin was even a whelp. But when all looked bleak revival sparked. Now we've come full circle again, the common person once again disbelieves God, it once again looks bleak. Some people say the end is coming, I say its been this bad before and it'll revive again, when the real end comes there wont be many looking for it.

Until the time of revival comes I'll do anything I can to keep things as good as they can be, and I think everyone has the same prerogative.
 
Re-read Job, Tlaloc.

Those friends SPECULATED about what Job MIGHT have done. When it comes to 'churches' which serve Caesar instead of God, it is another thing entirely to cite specifics where our Savior said NOT to do these things. No speculation necessary. (Start with Matthew or Revelation for the easy ones. ;) )

And don't forget that Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea - and all of the rest who warned His people about the same things - ALL came after Job.
 
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