• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Are you freaking kidding me?

How do we know that this is the difference? My Bible didn't come with diagrams.
Because the invention of the more extreme circumcision by the rabbis post-Christ has been documented historically. Can't think of the precise references right now, but Google is your friend. This is accepted history.

In scripture there is no definition, because nobody had invented anything different yet. Circumcision was just circumcision, there were not different versions of it. But we can see it was a relatively minor operation because:
  1. Genesis 17:14,24-25 says that Abraham and Ishmael were circumcised "in the flesh of the foreskin". Not the foreskin removed, rather whatever it was happened only within the flesh of the foreskin, ie more minor.
  2. Zipporah managed to circumcise her son in the night simply using a sharp stone. (Ex 4:25)
  3. Joshua circumcised all the Hebrew men using simply stone knives (Joshua 5:3, KJV reads "sharp" but more accurately reads "stone" or "flint").
  4. 1 Co 7:18 refers to the fact that it was possible to seek to "become uncircumcised" - in other words, to regrow the foreskin using weights, which is a well-documented practice of some Hellenized Jews at the time. And is why the more extreme version was invented later by the rabbis.
 
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Love your new Profile pic!
 
How do we know that this is the difference? My Bible didn't come with diagrams.



I was talking about Philippians actually, the Greek version.



And yet same Paul to the Corinthians also said...



And he also refused to circumcise Titus...



So why the difference?



Notice he didn't say he did it because of the law, or to follow the command, but because of the Jews. Since they knew his father was Greek they'd know he wouldn't have had him circumcised at birth. In other words, it was an 'become all things to all people' approach. Since it meant nothing, doing so overcame a hurdle to the spread of the Gospel. But he would later refuse to do so in the case of Titus because of the controversy with false brethren trying to bring them back into bondage of the law; in this case doing so would have sent the wrong message.
So there’s no need to find a reconciliation to the all the contradictions? You just admit that they exist and then pick the side you like? Paul circumcised one and didn’t circumcise the other so you decide that circumcision must be wrong. It’s a very common strategy and you appear to have mastered it.
 
So there’s no need to find a reconciliation to the all the contradictions? You just admit that they exist and then pick the side you like?
With all due respect, in my experience the pro Jew pro Zionists like yourself will not engage is rational discussion or attempt to reconcile scriptural conflicts on that subject. In other words, we all have our blind sides.

It’s a very common strategy and you appear to have mastered it.

I have seen several members here that I think highly of ignore my questions on the above referenced subject, including you.

Circumsicion is as deeply personal as how many wives a man can "sleep with."

It's as hot a topic as who's a Jew.

I like hot topics....but only when people stick with fair debate and don't ignore what they don't want to answer.

There is my ornery comment for the day.:D:eek::rolleyes:
 
With all due respect, in my experience the pro Jew pro Zionists like yourself will not engage is rational discussion or attempt to reconcile scriptural conflicts on that subject. In other words, we all have our blind sides.



I have seen several members here that I think highly of ignore my questions on the above referenced subject, including you.

Circumsicion is as deeply personal as how many wives a man can "sleep with."

It's as hot a topic as who's a Jew.

I like hot topics....but only when people stick with fair debate and don't ignore what they don't want to answer.

There is my ornery comment for the day.:D:eek::rolleyes:
Well this seems like a little bit of a bait and switch but I guess I’ll plead guilty. There are some ideas that do not merit anymore debate. I saw what you had to say on the topic of Zionism and who the Jews are and it was silly. None of it checked out. Almost every scripture you referenced either had been fulfilled before the time of Christ or won’t be until the Second Coming. I am uncomfortable debating women to begin with but doubly so when the woman is one I deeply admire in most other issues but who is so mistaken on this one.

These ideas have been latched on to by some of the worst actors of the last century to boot. I’m sorry but I don’t think they should be promulgated here at all.

I suffer from an inability to do conflict any other way but scorched earth. As soon as a conflict is engaged I go to DefCon 5. In this instance it would be inappropriate to do so. In fact it would be sinful for me to try and convince another man’s wife of anything. So I won’t.

@rockfox on the other hand is fair game. He has demonstrated a willingness to spar and even battle and he makes claims to intellectual rigor. If he wants to spout error then all that remains is for others of like mind to start slinging flaming bricks.
 
Because the invention of the more extreme circumcision by the rabbis post-Christ has been documented historically. Can't think of the precise references right now, but Google is your friend. This is accepted history.

In scripture there is no definition, because nobody had invented anything different yet. Circumcision was just circumcision, there were not different versions of it. But we can see it was a relatively minor operation because:

Ok, but this does not sound like a minor operation...

“These men are at peace with us. Therefore let them dwell in the land and trade in it. For indeed the land is large enough for them. Let us take their daughters to us as wives, and let us give them our daughters. 22Only on this condition will the men consent to dwell with us, to be one people: if every male among us is circumcised as they are circumcised. 23Will not their livestock, their property, and every animal of theirs be ours? Only let us consent to them, and they will dwell with us.” 24And all who went out of the gate of his city heeded Hamor and Shechem his son; every male was circumcised, all who went out of the gate of his city.

25Now it came to pass on the third day, when they were in pain, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, each took his sword and came boldly upon the city and killed all the males.

How bad does it have to be that you can't rise up and defend yourself? That only 2 men killed all the men in the city.

1 Co 7:18 refers to the fact that it was possible to seek to "become uncircumcised" - in other words, to regrow the foreskin using weights, which is a well-documented practice of some Hellenized Jews at the time. And is why the more extreme version was invented later by the rabbis.

There are men doing this today with the supposedly more extreme version as well.
 
So there’s no need to find a reconciliation to the all the contradictions? You just admit that they exist and then pick the side you like? Paul circumcised one and didn’t circumcise the other so you decide that circumcision must be wrong. It’s a very common strategy and you appear to have mastered it.

No, I follow the clear instructions of Paul...

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.

instead of trying to read into the historical narrative reasons to not do what Paul said to do.

I presented a plausible explanation for why the difference between Titus and Timothy based on the hints in the text. But at the end of the day Paul didn't give us a detailed exposition explaining in detail why he did what he did. But it doesn't matter because he already established the foundation principle, the theology, and what actions we should take/not take. And that is to not circumcise.

And in the original context of this thread, it is all the more silly to tell non-believers to circumcise their children. I have no idea why a Torah keeper would want non-believers to do so. It's a mark of obedience to Torah, it cheapens it if everyone does it.
 
How bad does it have to be that you can't rise up and defend yourself? That only 2 men killed all the men in the city.
For the sake of science and theology: Any uncut volunteers to, as an adult, have a trim and then try and physically fight someone to the death on the third day? :)

I do get your point - nevertheless that's a pretty sensitive region to heal up even with a minor injury. If everyone is unwell, and not expecting an attack, they would also be not guarding their posts and possibly not in ready reach of their weapons, possibly many of the men were in bed.
There are men doing this today with the supposedly more extreme version as well.
Absolutely. But that doesn't change the historical fact that men did it in the past, and that caused the rabbis to make a more extreme cut to make it more difficult to reverse. Sure even that can be reversed - sort-of, eventually, after enormous time, effort and discomfort.
 
The possibility that some strong wine consumption was happening to alleviate discomfort does exist.
 
For the sake of science and theology: Any uncut volunteers to, as an adult, have a trim and then try and physically fight someone to the death on the third day? :)

Are the volunteers bombarding you yet, just begging for the opportunity? :rolleyes:
Maybe if you find a doctor willing to do the procedure for free? :cool:

I do get your point - nevertheless that's a pretty sensitive region to heal up even with a minor injury.
Of course I can only imagine, and I have never had to recover from any surgery.

I remember hearing from a woman once that had a skin tag removed from having had regular ole hemorrhoids that she was in so much pain after she could hardly move or function. That much pain from a very minor surgery. The dr explained that there are a lot of nerve endings down there.

The way the story reads, the "city" of men that got killed the third day had no reason to fear. They just made a deal with Jacob/Israel's sons that was going to allow them all to inter marry. Simeon and Levi were not honest and set them up. Back then a King was just the patriarch of the settlement and the prince was his son.
Sheckem may have not been a big city. Men recently introduced to everyone might have gone tent to tent under the guise of visiting their new "friends" and done the destroying unhindered.

The possibility that some strong wine consumption was happening to alleviate discomfort does exist.

Levi and Simeon might have given them the wine! :eek:o_O (I know it's not in the text)

I suffer from an inability to do conflict any other way but scorched earth. As soon as a conflict is engaged I go to DefCon 5. In this instance it would be inappropriate to do so. In fact it would be sinful for me to try and convince another man’s wife of anything. So I won’t.
I understand and respect your feelings on the issue.
It is good to be hot or cold, and a man with a strong opinion is certainly more of a man then one wishy washy and undecided.
Honestly, our family hopes to meet yours one of these days! TN retreat maybe? :)
We all find far more to like and admire in you and @windblown then disagree with.....it's just that one thing we see differently. Thanks for taking the jab like a gracious papa bear.
 
Last edited:
No, I follow the clear instructions of Paul...



instead of trying to read into the historical narrative reasons to not do what Paul said to do.

I presented a plausible explanation for why the difference between Titus and Timothy based on the hints in the text. But at the end of the day Paul didn't give us a detailed exposition explaining in detail why he did what he did. But it doesn't matter because he already established the foundation principle, the theology, and what actions we should take/not take. And that is to not circumcise.

And in the original context of this thread, it is all the more silly to tell non-believers to circumcise their children. I have no idea why a Torah keeper would want non-believers to do so. It's a mark of obedience to Torah, it cheapens it if everyone does it.
Okay, I was circumcised at birth so I’m to live that way right? Consistency may be the refuge of the weak minded but doesn’t that verse taken by itself seem to suggest that it’s fine to be circumcised and follow Torah? Required in fact for those of us who were circumcised before our conversion?
 
No, I follow the clear instructions of Paul...



instead of trying to read into the historical narrative reasons to not do what Paul said to do.

I presented a plausible explanation for why the difference between Titus and Timothy based on the hints in the text. But at the end of the day Paul didn't give us a detailed exposition explaining in detail why he did what he did. But it doesn't matter because he already established the foundation principle, the theology, and what actions we should take/not take. And that is to not circumcise.

And in the original context of this thread, it is all the more silly to tell non-believers to circumcise their children. I have no idea why a Torah keeper would want non-believers to do so. It's a mark of obedience to Torah, it cheapens it if everyone does it.
Is it possible that this passage is poetic, and literary, not literal?
Is it possibly similar to cutting off hands, or plucking out eyes?

I'm generally a literalist, but it seems like this passage is more trying to make an overall point, not a directive.
 
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Acts 25:8
while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

2 Peter 3:14-17
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, [15] and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, [16] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. [17] You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Paul didn't teach against physical circumcision. You are misunderstanding him. Continue at your own peril.
 
Last edited:
There is no doubt in my mind that Paul was not always talking about literal circumcision every time he used the word 'circumcision' (the same with 'uncircumcision'). @rockfox mentions one of these passages . . .

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.

This is not just about the issue of penile tissue removal. It's also writ larger about the issue of Torah following and what was a scourge during his time period: judaizing, which was the practice of insisting that new Christian converts also effectively convert retroactively to Judaism, which was to include not only getting circumcised but following all Jewish practices and traditions in order to be 'full' followers of Christ.

One of the things that Paul is pointing toward in the above passage, though, gets at the heart of what many of you are batting about: two strong subcultures were in operation at the time of Paul, and he referred to them as The Circumcision and The Uncircumcision. In point of very definite fact, Paul was the sole Apostle (with a capital A) assigned to bring the somewhat distinct Gospel entrusted to him by Christ to the Gentiles, or the Uncircumcision. Peter and James headed up the post-Christ ministry to the Messianic Jews. Distinct differences existed not only in the messages to those two groups but as far as promoted personal practices were concerned.

It is to that distinction that Paul was speaking in I Corinthians 7:17-20. How much more clear could he be than to say that either circumcision or uncircumcision was nothing? Nothing. As in, it just had no significance in the eyes of our Father. And not just the penis nipping but every other aspect of the cultural traditions -- or even whether one eats or doesn't eat meat or does or doesn't baptize or does or doesn't believe that one can speak in tongues. His advice, thus, was to remain in one's tradition. If Circumcision (Jewish) do your Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ. If Uncircumcision (Gentile) do your non-Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ.

Personally, I like being circumcised, and I've gotten good feedback about it.

But I was circumcised at birth, so I know nothing else, and I suspect had I not been circumcised I would have gotten some good feedback about that as well!

I've been reading all this with great interest, as I see arguments on both sides. I'm wondering, though, to what extent this discussion is simply an intellectual exercise and to what extent it's reflective of very personal impressions in a way that participants haven't made transparent/obvious. Is, for example, there anyone among us who has chosen to be circumcised as an adult in order to comply with a newly-found spiritual conviction?

P.S. Addendum: remember, it's always essential to keep in mind that context is key (to whom was something written in Scripture; for whom; about whom; when; why; among what other lessons?). In I Cor. 7:17-20, Paul is clearly setting the context of the distinction between the Messianic Jews (a better title for 'Hebrews,' in fact) and the Gentile Christians. Paul himself was a Pharisaical Jew prior to his conversion, so he wasn't a Gentile despite ultimately being assigned to preach to them. Christ, on the other hand, while having some contact with Gentiles, only preached to Jews; the same is true for Peter and James, and it's unlikely that Paul wrote Hebrews. Paul may or may not have continued throughout his entire ministry to follow Torah, but what he did not do is demand that all Gentile converts do so. He very clearly, in fact, did the opposite by preaching against judaizing. Contemporaneously, Peter and James did exhort Messianic Jews to continue their adherence to Jewish customs, including adherence to Torah. This, of course, doesn't mean that Paul preached that converts should behave in opposition to Torah, but it simply wasn't portrayed as some type of spiritual imperative to them. One can't simply point back to a First Covenant scripture like one of the Proverbs and insist that it applies for all time to all people; any exhortation in Proverbs or Psalms related to Torah would have been, in context, applicable to the Israelites of the times during which those Psalms or Proverbs were written.

P.S.S. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm condemning anyone for keeping Torah. I am thoroughly of the belief that doing so is well within the freedom each of us has to decide how best to design and follow one's own individual spiritual path. At the very least, the body of guidelines known as the Torah is a corpus of common-sense, demonstrably efficacious boundaries for living life in a manner that not only glorifies God but promotes good health and proper treatment of one's fellow human beings. My only point is to assert that in total the Torah was a collective admonition for the Chosen People: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob up until the time of Messiah. That was the First Covenant (a better moniker than the Old Testament), and it was an agreement between our God and a particular set of people. The rest of us can emulate what those people attempted to do, but that no more makes us part of them than it would make me Evil Knievel simply because I followed his motorcycle stunts down to the letter.

Everyone has the right to follow or not follow Torah (with the exception of those commandments Christ distilled into the Two), but within the context of the imperative we've all been given to refrain from judging our fellow brothers none of us has the right to insist that anyone else follow or not follow Torah.
 
Last edited:
Okay, I was circumcised at birth so I’m to live that way right? Consistency may be the refuge of the weak minded but doesn’t that verse taken by itself seem to suggest that it’s fine to be circumcised and follow Torah? Required in fact for those of us who were circumcised before our conversion?

You were circumcised, so don't try to undo it. As it says, it's meaningless, so that doesn't suggest it's fine to do it, it says there is no reason to and so don't. Required? No, not least of which because circumcision is not a feature of the new covenant and most men today were not circumcised because their Jewish parents were Torah keepers.

It's not fine...

Stand[a] fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Which also goes to the next point...

Is it possible that this passage is poetic, and literary, not literal?
Is it possibly similar to cutting off hands, or plucking out eyes?

I'm generally a literalist, but it seems like this passage is more trying to make an overall point, not a directive.

I don't see anything to indicate that in the text of 1 Cor 7. And Paul is pretty strident elsewhere about not becoming circumcised.

Paul didn't teach against physical circumcision. You are misunderstanding him. Continue at your own peril.

No I'm not misunderstanding anything, Paul is very clear...

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.

and

Stand[a] fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

As are the other Apostles (inc Peter)...

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, [h]saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual[j] immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

They weren't talking about a figurative circumcision.
 
Paul is very clear...

Stand[a] fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

"if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing"!!??

If circumcision were an issue for me to make a decision on - that statement from Paul would scare me far away from it.
I really don't understand those who proceed with and advocate circumcision in spite of Paul's statement.

"Christ will profit you nothing"

nothing???

Just WOW!! I find that extremely terrifying!!
 
There is no doubt in my mind that Paul was not always talking about literal circumcision every time he used the word 'circumcision' (the same with 'uncircumcision'). @rockfox mentions one of these passages . . .



This is not just about the issue of penile tissue removal. It's also writ larger about the issue of Torah following and what was a scourge during his time period: judaizing, which was the practice of insisting that new Christian converts also effectively convert retroactively to Judaism, which was to include not only getting circumcised but following all Jewish practices and traditions in order to be 'full' followers of Christ.

One of the things that Paul is pointing toward in the above passage, though, gets at the heart of what many of you are batting about: two strong subcultures were in operation at the time of Paul, and he referred to them as The Circumcision and The Uncircumcision. In point of very definite fact, Paul was the sole Apostle (with a capital A) assigned to bring the somewhat distinct Gospel entrusted to him by Christ to the Gentiles, or the Uncircumcision. Peter and James headed up the post-Christ ministry to the Messianic Jews. Distinct differences existed not only in the messages to those two groups but as far as promoted personal practices were concerned.

It is to that distinction that Paul was speaking in I Corinthians 7:17-20. How much more clear could he be than to say that either circumcision or uncircumcision was nothing? Nothing. As in, it just had no significance in the eyes of our Father. And not just the penis nipping but every other aspect of the cultural traditions -- or even whether one eats or doesn't eat meat or does or doesn't baptize or does or doesn't believe that one can speak in tongues. His advice, thus, was to remain in one's tradition. If Circumcision (Jewish) do your Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ. If Uncircumcision (Gentile) do your non-Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ.

Personally, I like being circumcised, and I've gotten good feedback about it.

But I was circumcised at birth, so I know nothing else, and I suspect had I not been circumcised I would have gotten some good feedback about that as well!

I've been reading all this with great interest, as I see arguments on both sides. I'm wondering, though, to what extent this discussion is simply an intellectual exercise and to what extent it's reflective of very personal impressions in a way that participants haven't made transparent/obvious. Is, for example, there anyone among us who has chosen to be circumcised as an adult in order to comply with a newly-found spiritual conviction?

P.S. Addendum: remember, it's always essential to keep in mind that context is key (to whom was something written in Scripture; for whom; about whom; when; why; among what other lessons?). In I Cor. 7:17-20, Paul is clearly setting the context of the distinction between the Messianic Jews (a better title for 'Hebrews,' in fact) and the Gentile Christians. Paul himself was a Pharisaical Jew prior to his conversion, so he wasn't a Gentile despite ultimately being assigned to preach to them. Christ, on the other hand, while having some contact with Gentiles, only preached to Jews; the same is true for Peter and James, and it's unlikely that Paul wrote Hebrews. Paul may or may not have continued throughout his entire ministry to follow Torah, but what he did not do is demand that all Gentile converts do so. He very clearly, in fact, did the opposite by preaching against judaizing. Contemporaneously, Peter and James did exhort Messianic Jews to continue their adherence to Jewish customs, including adherence to Torah. This, of course, doesn't mean that Paul preached that converts should behave in opposition to Torah, but it simply wasn't portrayed as some type of spiritual imperative to them. One can't simply point back to a First Covenant scripture like one of the Proverbs and insist that it applies for all time to all people; any exhortation in Proverbs or Psalms related to Torah would have been, in context, applicable to the Israelites of the times during which those Psalms or Proverbs were written.

P.S.S. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm condemning anyone for keeping Torah. I am thoroughly of the belief that doing so is well within the freedom each of us has to decide how best to design and follow one's own individual spiritual path. At the very least, the body of guidelines known as the Torah is a corpus of common-sense, demonstrably efficacious boundaries for living life in a manner that not only glorifies God but promotes good health and proper treatment of one's fellow human beings. My only point is to assert that in total the Torah was a collective admonition for the Chosen People: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob up until the time of Messiah. That was the First Covenant (a better moniker than the Old Testament), and it was an agreement between our God and a particular set of people. The rest of us can emulate what those people attempted to do, but that no more makes us part of them than it would make me Evil Knievel simply because I followed his motorcycle stunts down to the letter.

Everyone has the right to follow or not follow Torah (with the exception of those commandments Christ distilled into the Two), but within the context of the imperative we've all been given to refrain from judging our fellow brothers none of us has the right to insist that anyone else follow or not follow Torah.
I would add that all Christians are tied to Torah sexual laws by Acts 15’s denunciation of “fornication”.
 
You were circumcised, so don't try to undo it. As it says, it's meaningless, so that doesn't suggest it's fine to do it, it says there is no reason to and so don't. Required? No, not least of which because circumcision is not a feature of the new covenant and most men today were not circumcised because their Jewish parents were Torah keepers.

It's not fine...



Which also goes to the next point...



I don't see anything to indicate that in the text of 1 Cor 7. And Paul is pretty strident elsewhere about not becoming circumcised.



No I'm not misunderstanding anything, Paul is very clear...



and



As are the other Apostles (inc Peter)...



They weren't talking about a figurative circumcision.
So you have another problem, circumcision was described in the same tens and in the same sentence as uncircumcision was. If there is the slightest negative connotation to circumcision it applies the same way to uncircumcision. I’m not sure how you make this a prohibition against circumcision.
 
So you have another problem, circumcision was described in the same tens and in the same sentence as uncircumcision was. If there is the slightest negative connotation to circumcision it applies the same way to uncircumcision. I’m not sure how you make this a prohibition against circumcision.
I think @rockfox is not so much opposed to getting a circumcision done of your own free will, but more so, having one done to your infant son, which of course, if you did, what's done is done.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that Paul was not always talking about literal circumcision every time he used the word 'circumcision' (the same with 'uncircumcision'). @rockfox mentions one of these passages . . .



This is not just about the issue of penile tissue removal. It's also writ larger about the issue of Torah following and what was a scourge during his time period: judaizing, which was the practice of insisting that new Christian converts also effectively convert retroactively to Judaism, which was to include not only getting circumcised but following all Jewish practices and traditions in order to be 'full' followers of Christ.

One of the things that Paul is pointing toward in the above passage, though, gets at the heart of what many of you are batting about: two strong subcultures were in operation at the time of Paul, and he referred to them as The Circumcision and The Uncircumcision. In point of very definite fact, Paul was the sole Apostle (with a capital A) assigned to bring the somewhat distinct Gospel entrusted to him by Christ to the Gentiles, or the Uncircumcision. Peter and James headed up the post-Christ ministry to the Messianic Jews. Distinct differences existed not only in the messages to those two groups but as far as promoted personal practices were concerned.

It is to that distinction that Paul was speaking in I Corinthians 7:17-20. How much more clear could he be than to say that either circumcision or uncircumcision was nothing? Nothing. As in, it just had no significance in the eyes of our Father. And not just the penis nipping but every other aspect of the cultural traditions -- or even whether one eats or doesn't eat meat or does or doesn't baptize or does or doesn't believe that one can speak in tongues. His advice, thus, was to remain in one's tradition. If Circumcision (Jewish) do your Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ. If Uncircumcision (Gentile) do your non-Jewish things, because they don't have any bearing on your standing with God or your faith in Christ.

Personally, I like being circumcised, and I've gotten good feedback about it.

But I was circumcised at birth, so I know nothing else, and I suspect had I not been circumcised I would have gotten some good feedback about that as well!

I've been reading all this with great interest, as I see arguments on both sides. I'm wondering, though, to what extent this discussion is simply an intellectual exercise and to what extent it's reflective of very personal impressions in a way that participants haven't made transparent/obvious. Is, for example, there anyone among us who has chosen to be circumcised as an adult in order to comply with a newly-found spiritual conviction?

P.S. Addendum: remember, it's always essential to keep in mind that context is key (to whom was something written in Scripture; for whom; about whom; when; why; among what other lessons?). In I Cor. 7:17-20, Paul is clearly setting the context of the distinction between the Messianic Jews (a better title for 'Hebrews,' in fact) and the Gentile Christians. Paul himself was a Pharisaical Jew prior to his conversion, so he wasn't a Gentile despite ultimately being assigned to preach to them. Christ, on the other hand, while having some contact with Gentiles, only preached to Jews; the same is true for Peter and James, and it's unlikely that Paul wrote Hebrews. Paul may or may not have continued throughout his entire ministry to follow Torah, but what he did not do is demand that all Gentile converts do so. He very clearly, in fact, did the opposite by preaching against judaizing. Contemporaneously, Peter and James did exhort Messianic Jews to continue their adherence to Jewish customs, including adherence to Torah. This, of course, doesn't mean that Paul preached that converts should behave in opposition to Torah, but it simply wasn't portrayed as some type of spiritual imperative to them. One can't simply point back to a First Covenant scripture like one of the Proverbs and insist that it applies for all time to all people; any exhortation in Proverbs or Psalms related to Torah would have been, in context, applicable to the Israelites of the times during which those Psalms or Proverbs were written.

P.S.S. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm condemning anyone for keeping Torah. I am thoroughly of the belief that doing so is well within the freedom each of us has to decide how best to design and follow one's own individual spiritual path. At the very least, the body of guidelines known as the Torah is a corpus of common-sense, demonstrably efficacious boundaries for living life in a manner that not only glorifies God but promotes good health and proper treatment of one's fellow human beings. My only point is to assert that in total the Torah was a collective admonition for the Chosen People: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob up until the time of Messiah. That was the First Covenant (a better moniker than the Old Testament), and it was an agreement between our God and a particular set of people. The rest of us can emulate what those people attempted to do, but that no more makes us part of them than it would make me Evil Knievel simply because I followed his motorcycle stunts down to the letter.

Everyone has the right to follow or not follow Torah (with the exception of those commandments Christ distilled into the Two), but within the context of the imperative we've all been given to refrain from judging our fellow brothers none of us has the right to insist that anyone else follow or not follow Torah.
Triple Like! I would add one thing...Paul also spoke about celebrating certain holidays in both Col 2 and Rom 14. If you think doing so in front of a weaker brother or sister, will cause them to stumble and lose their faith, do so discretely. We have to remember that the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. The main thing, is Jesus Christ, and his crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection, that has brought us eternal life, and sharing that with as many people as God puts into our path, as the Holy Spirit prompts and leads us to do so.
 
Back
Top