This is exactly the kind of thread I appreciate seeing here on BF, though such a fast moving thread during a really busy week is hard to keep up with.
Keep in mind, my thoughts below are really me thinking this out. Some of this may not be as fully fleshed out as I need it to be for my own understanding, even more so for yours.
Where we are right now, what I'm speaking is not so much the issue, but Paul is speaking in terms of rule, not counsel. So that's why I say that I agree with aineo as far as he goes, but I don't think he goes far enough (yet) to address the issues raised by Paul's language. And I'm still mindful of the identicalness of Paul's instructions to men and to elders, so it's hard for me to consider rewriting the verses about elders and deacons to say counsel without then suggesting that we ought also to rewrite the verse concerning husbands.
@andrew What you are speaking of still requires leadership at the consent of the governed in my mind.
One thing I keep thinking about is how we, as followers of Christ, are to function as a family. If we step back in history to Biblical times there was a much stronger family structure than there is today. As I understand it, multiple generations might choose to live in the same home, and if they did then the elder of that family, the most senior man present (grandpa for the sake of example), was respected and his advice was heeded. Again, as I understand it, if one of his grandson's greatly disagreed with grandpa's advice or direction, that grandson could take his wife and children and leave, but he might do so to his own peril and shame. In some ways that is similar to the leadership
@Mojo described.
People wouldn't have submitted themselves to his headship just because he was older, people would have submitted to his headship because he was wise. Yes, you could argue that they had to live under his roof for financial reason (couldn't survive without the benefits of the family), but I content if the elder wasn't wise, his descendants would leave.
How much authority might this elder have in the lives of those around him? I suspect he had a say in wives his descendent might take, business ventures, careers, and so on. This doesn't necessarily mean that a modern Christian elder has that much of a role, but the examples are helping me think this out.
What other roles might this elder play in the lives of those he oversees? I suspect this wise elder would have learned from his elders. Perhaps an indication of this would be his wise money management, which would allow him to ensure no one under his headship starved. He would probably work hard to teach those skills to his descendants in order that his fortune wouldn't be squandered after his death.
As I think this out, I think the ideal elder would mimic this within the church. What might that look like though? I still go back to an earlier statement of mine in that I think others would seek the counsel of this elder. Yes, that is different than rule, but if others do not respect an elder enough to seek their counsel, they sure aren't going to respect their rule. As I see it, it is that wisdom in counsel that earns the right for more authority over our lives, albeit authority that we are permitting that person to have. If they go off the deep end and start directing us against the teachings in the Bible, then we can pack our bags and join another house or form our own.
There is more to it though, I think. I touched on this a moment ago: no one under his headship starved. I think this aligns with the Acts church. The "family" all brought a portion of their wages to the church, and if there was one in need, those funds were distributed appropriately.
Back on topic, I agree with
@andrew that elders certainly have real authority over the men under them, you can't really read this any other way. The question in my mind is not whether they have authority, but what parts of life do they have authority over?
...
So having authority over somebody does not necessarily mean being able to command them in every aspect of life. Authority is given within bounds, not unlimited.
What are the bounds within which an elder has authority? Elders clearly have authority over matters directly relating to the function of the assembly - what doctrine is taught as valid, who can preach, how to use money donated to the assembly, when and where to meet, whether to buy a building or rent, collective evangelism... Men within the assembly must clearly submit to the elders in such matters. Is it possible that the verses talking about the authority of elders relate solely to such matters? Is there any clear scripture indicating that the authority of elders extends to the personal lives of the men in the assembly?
Like
@ZecAustin has said elsewhere, I don't see where these lines are clearly defined, but it seems to me that there is wisdom in an elder having some say in the lives of those who have aligned with him.
Using an example pertinent to all of us, let's suppose for a moment that a man joins our community and he currently has one wife. As we get to know this man, it becomes clear that he isn't providing solid leadership within his family, and he isn't able to solidly provide for them. If that man were to come to an elder in our community here and state that he believes he has found #2, that elder might tell him no, the time is not right. The elder would be doing this in the best interest of the man, seeing it from a vantage point the man might be unable to see because he is too close to it.
Another example might be if a man were to come to an elder and share a business idea he has, but the elder in his wisdom might realize the man doesn't have the ability (funds) to see this through to success, and the business will likely fail. I can see the elder telling him not to do it. On the flipside, I can also see the elder in a slightly different situation suggesting others under his headship consider investing in this man's business idea, which might benefit the whole "family".
Even though I have more thoughts on this, this is getting long, and I've got a lot to do other than this today. More to come ...
