There seems to be a slight disconnect in many people's minds or perhaps a lack of realization. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Similarly, just because you have authority from God to do something, doesn't mean you can do it. You "may" do it but practical concerns may prevent you from exercising said authority.
Since a recent thread has resurfaced, I thought I'd start a thread that has a bit of a different bent on the same subject from my perspective. This is not a response to any person's viewpoint or statement. Simply my thoughts on the matter without obfuscation from lots of cross talk.
I think scripturally there is a great deal of evidence to support the idea that the father has authority to arrange his daughter's marriage. Including the ability to nullify a vow the day he hears it. The father even has the authority to deny a man marriage to his daughter. She belongs to the father.
Scriptural reality and truth sometimes does not matter if the reality in the world is that the authority depicted in scripture is not enforceable.
The reality is in this nation, at this time, if a man bucks the conventions of this day and place, there are consequences. A man has the authority to take a second wife, but without proper groundwork and preparation in the mind and heart of his first wife, the consequence is often that she takes the children, and at least half of everything he owns, possibly ruining the man's life and reputation. Authority and reality are often quite different. Authority to do something does not mean power to do the thing. Rights/authority mean nothing without the power to enact the right or exercise the authority.
The reality is that it doesn't really matter if a father has the "scriptural authority" to dictate whom a daughter marries. The society we live in will not support the man in his authority, so he is stripped of the power to enforce the authority.
IF the man wants to ensure a good marriage for his daughter, he must be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. He needs to build the foundation in the mind and heart of his daughter from childhood through young adult years in such a way that he has her trust, and heart. That she greatly honors and respects his authority and heart towards her to do good for her and not harm her.
BECAUSE her father has proven himself to be worthy of that trust and wisdom.
NOT because God's word says he has authority, but because she can safely trust in him.
I am 9 years older than my wife. She listened to her parents when they suggested she consider me as a marriage potential. They started setting the groundwork by inviting me to come over to do work when she was 15. She had the opportunity to observe my work ethic and character. Neither of us were considering each other at the time. She didn't know they had their sights set on me, and I certainly wasn't paying attention to a 15 year old girl at 24 years old. But they set the stage and allowed her to observe first. They asked her to consider me after she turned 16, but her first reaction was "eww, he's too old". However they had even years prior to that influenced her thinking to remove that cultural conditioning that marriage should be to someone the same age by having her read a series of books about Elsie Dinsmore who married someone 17 years her senior. She trusted them, considered me and found me eminently worthy as a husband DESPITE her initial reservations about the age difference.
This is the exact same principle I've spoken about in regards to pursuing a marriage with an additional woman in regards to the first wife. A man may have the "right" or the "God given authority" to do so. But that is irrelevant if the man has not demonstrated his own authority to such a degree that his first wife is so utterly convinced that she follows his lead even if she has reservations and fear.
Same principle with a horse and rider. The rider may own the horse and have the authority to tell the horse to follow him across a white frothing river in a mountain in pursuit of an elk he shot, strap the meat on the horses back, and haul it out of the mountains. The authority is utterly meaningless if the man has not demonstrated his authority in the training of the horse, building the trust, such that the horse believes "if the rider says we go across this scary river, that's where we go even if I'm afraid. And if the rider says this blood smell is not to be feared, I'll let him strap it to me anyways even though all my instincts say run away, I will trust him even so." These principles are so easy to understand it's astonishing when I see men losing their wives and children because they start down the poly path with no foundation. Patriarchy First.
When the husband says "I want you to meet this woman I think will be a good addition to my family and household", the first wife trusts his leadership and his heart towards her. She trusts that he will not pick someone with a personality that will clash and cause strife and division. She trusts that if there is strife and contention, that he will quickly intervene to solve the issue and bring restoration and healing so that there can be togetherness among the adults of the household. She trusts that following him is better than a life without him, because he has PROVEN already. Words on a page mean little when emotions are high. Heck, even vows spoken earnestly on a wedding day mean nothing to a woman who is solidly in her emotions with no constraining love and control by her husband.
His authority means jack spit if he has not adequately demonstrated to his first wife that he is worthy of her respect and trust.
(I am going to segue slightly to add a caveat that I believe is irrelevant to my statements but because I know that if I don't head this butwaddabout off at the pass, it will derail things)
BECAUSE the man has the authority to dictate whom his daughter marries or doesn't marry, or whether or not he takes an additional wife... Because of this.... The daughter has a responsibility before God to obey. The first wife has a responsibility before God to obey her husband.
Likewise with authority and power, responsibility and obedience do not always meet reality. The responsibility to obey does not convert into obedient actions if the gulf between trust and the required action/decision are too great. If the child does not trust the father to catch him when commanded to jump in the water, the child will not be able to overcome the self preservation instincts of staying solidly on land. The daughter will not be able to overcome her selfish desires or self preservation instincts to pick what she thinks is a wiser course of action. The first wife will not be able to overcome her emotions of fear and doubt to follow her husband with a gentle and obedient spirit. The foundation must be solid.
The man must have the heart, trust, true ownership, and obedience of the one being commanded to expect obedience when it runs contrary to selfish desires, or self preservation.
There's a beautiful story about a father driving down the road who hears a battery hissing under the bench seat of the old beater pickup, the passenger door is broken so everyone has to exit through the driver door, but they have the windows down. He hears the hiss and thinks that the battery is about to explode, slams on the breaks and shouts "GET OUT OF THE TRUCK NOW!" as he opens the driver door and bails out, he turns around and no kids are in sight, they dove head first out the passenger window onto the gravel road. The children so trusted his leadership and goodwill towards them that they did what they knew would hurt, because they trusted his leadership. When he said "get out" they knew they needed to get out.
That's the kind of trust a man must have with his daughter to have the power, to implement his authority to arrange a marriage for her. Without that power built from trust and respect, his authority means nothing. It's the same kind of trust a first wife must have for her husband to follow him down a path that she knows will hurt emotionally, when she knows it means the loss of some relationships she values. When it means the loss of much in her life that has been easy and lovely. It's far easier to perceive and dwell on the known loss rather than focus on the possible gain. Because of these things, it takes a great deal of trust on the part of a wife to follow her husband into polygyny. It likely is even scarier and requires more trust for a young woman to trust her father's decision in a husband for her.
Authority according to God is well and good. It should be a goal to live up to the authority we as men have vested in us by God. But having the authority vested in no way imparts the power or wisdom to exercise the authority. We must demonstrate and earn the power to exercise the authority because obedience from our children and wives in this evil land is a rare jewel. Obedience to God is not common, expecting that obedience without training in obedience is a fool's hope.
A man that chooses to overstep his power is a fool. False belief that his God given authority translates to power has been the downfall of many men. We would all do well to heed the mistakes of men in the past. We see it all the time, there's even a saying about writing checks that you can't cash.
Since a recent thread has resurfaced, I thought I'd start a thread that has a bit of a different bent on the same subject from my perspective. This is not a response to any person's viewpoint or statement. Simply my thoughts on the matter without obfuscation from lots of cross talk.
I think scripturally there is a great deal of evidence to support the idea that the father has authority to arrange his daughter's marriage. Including the ability to nullify a vow the day he hears it. The father even has the authority to deny a man marriage to his daughter. She belongs to the father.
Scriptural reality and truth sometimes does not matter if the reality in the world is that the authority depicted in scripture is not enforceable.
The reality is in this nation, at this time, if a man bucks the conventions of this day and place, there are consequences. A man has the authority to take a second wife, but without proper groundwork and preparation in the mind and heart of his first wife, the consequence is often that she takes the children, and at least half of everything he owns, possibly ruining the man's life and reputation. Authority and reality are often quite different. Authority to do something does not mean power to do the thing. Rights/authority mean nothing without the power to enact the right or exercise the authority.
The reality is that it doesn't really matter if a father has the "scriptural authority" to dictate whom a daughter marries. The society we live in will not support the man in his authority, so he is stripped of the power to enforce the authority.
IF the man wants to ensure a good marriage for his daughter, he must be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. He needs to build the foundation in the mind and heart of his daughter from childhood through young adult years in such a way that he has her trust, and heart. That she greatly honors and respects his authority and heart towards her to do good for her and not harm her.
- When he says "honey, that boy is a bad match" that her training causes her to viscerally step back from the young man and break contact because she KNOWS her father is right and she is wrong. Despite her feelings on the matter she obeys.
- That when her father says, "here's a young man you should seriously consider, he would be a good husband to you." and her thoughts are "but I don't like him because *insert reason*" that she takes those thoughts captive and sets her "feelings" aside to SERIOUSLY consider the match her father suggested.
- By that I mean not just think about it, but consent to dates/meetings/time spent whatever you want to call it. And really get to know the man DESPITE her seeming lack of attraction or aversion to the man for whatever reason.
BECAUSE her father has proven himself to be worthy of that trust and wisdom.
NOT because God's word says he has authority, but because she can safely trust in him.
I am 9 years older than my wife. She listened to her parents when they suggested she consider me as a marriage potential. They started setting the groundwork by inviting me to come over to do work when she was 15. She had the opportunity to observe my work ethic and character. Neither of us were considering each other at the time. She didn't know they had their sights set on me, and I certainly wasn't paying attention to a 15 year old girl at 24 years old. But they set the stage and allowed her to observe first. They asked her to consider me after she turned 16, but her first reaction was "eww, he's too old". However they had even years prior to that influenced her thinking to remove that cultural conditioning that marriage should be to someone the same age by having her read a series of books about Elsie Dinsmore who married someone 17 years her senior. She trusted them, considered me and found me eminently worthy as a husband DESPITE her initial reservations about the age difference.
This is the exact same principle I've spoken about in regards to pursuing a marriage with an additional woman in regards to the first wife. A man may have the "right" or the "God given authority" to do so. But that is irrelevant if the man has not demonstrated his own authority to such a degree that his first wife is so utterly convinced that she follows his lead even if she has reservations and fear.
Same principle with a horse and rider. The rider may own the horse and have the authority to tell the horse to follow him across a white frothing river in a mountain in pursuit of an elk he shot, strap the meat on the horses back, and haul it out of the mountains. The authority is utterly meaningless if the man has not demonstrated his authority in the training of the horse, building the trust, such that the horse believes "if the rider says we go across this scary river, that's where we go even if I'm afraid. And if the rider says this blood smell is not to be feared, I'll let him strap it to me anyways even though all my instincts say run away, I will trust him even so." These principles are so easy to understand it's astonishing when I see men losing their wives and children because they start down the poly path with no foundation. Patriarchy First.
When the husband says "I want you to meet this woman I think will be a good addition to my family and household", the first wife trusts his leadership and his heart towards her. She trusts that he will not pick someone with a personality that will clash and cause strife and division. She trusts that if there is strife and contention, that he will quickly intervene to solve the issue and bring restoration and healing so that there can be togetherness among the adults of the household. She trusts that following him is better than a life without him, because he has PROVEN already. Words on a page mean little when emotions are high. Heck, even vows spoken earnestly on a wedding day mean nothing to a woman who is solidly in her emotions with no constraining love and control by her husband.
His authority means jack spit if he has not adequately demonstrated to his first wife that he is worthy of her respect and trust.
(I am going to segue slightly to add a caveat that I believe is irrelevant to my statements but because I know that if I don't head this butwaddabout off at the pass, it will derail things)
BECAUSE the man has the authority to dictate whom his daughter marries or doesn't marry, or whether or not he takes an additional wife... Because of this.... The daughter has a responsibility before God to obey. The first wife has a responsibility before God to obey her husband.
Likewise with authority and power, responsibility and obedience do not always meet reality. The responsibility to obey does not convert into obedient actions if the gulf between trust and the required action/decision are too great. If the child does not trust the father to catch him when commanded to jump in the water, the child will not be able to overcome the self preservation instincts of staying solidly on land. The daughter will not be able to overcome her selfish desires or self preservation instincts to pick what she thinks is a wiser course of action. The first wife will not be able to overcome her emotions of fear and doubt to follow her husband with a gentle and obedient spirit. The foundation must be solid.
The man must have the heart, trust, true ownership, and obedience of the one being commanded to expect obedience when it runs contrary to selfish desires, or self preservation.
There's a beautiful story about a father driving down the road who hears a battery hissing under the bench seat of the old beater pickup, the passenger door is broken so everyone has to exit through the driver door, but they have the windows down. He hears the hiss and thinks that the battery is about to explode, slams on the breaks and shouts "GET OUT OF THE TRUCK NOW!" as he opens the driver door and bails out, he turns around and no kids are in sight, they dove head first out the passenger window onto the gravel road. The children so trusted his leadership and goodwill towards them that they did what they knew would hurt, because they trusted his leadership. When he said "get out" they knew they needed to get out.
That's the kind of trust a man must have with his daughter to have the power, to implement his authority to arrange a marriage for her. Without that power built from trust and respect, his authority means nothing. It's the same kind of trust a first wife must have for her husband to follow him down a path that she knows will hurt emotionally, when she knows it means the loss of some relationships she values. When it means the loss of much in her life that has been easy and lovely. It's far easier to perceive and dwell on the known loss rather than focus on the possible gain. Because of these things, it takes a great deal of trust on the part of a wife to follow her husband into polygyny. It likely is even scarier and requires more trust for a young woman to trust her father's decision in a husband for her.
Authority according to God is well and good. It should be a goal to live up to the authority we as men have vested in us by God. But having the authority vested in no way imparts the power or wisdom to exercise the authority. We must demonstrate and earn the power to exercise the authority because obedience from our children and wives in this evil land is a rare jewel. Obedience to God is not common, expecting that obedience without training in obedience is a fool's hope.
A man that chooses to overstep his power is a fool. False belief that his God given authority translates to power has been the downfall of many men. We would all do well to heed the mistakes of men in the past. We see it all the time, there's even a saying about writing checks that you can't cash.
