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Big issue IMO

Revgill87123

Member
Male
I have been around Plural Marriage all my life and have noticed some thing. People are scarred! I mean really scarred, like there is some big PM Boogey man. Hiding around every corner. I understand people are afraid of police and don't want to go to jail. I often wander why practise PM if you are going to run hide and be scarred. To me when you live in secret it puts stress on the family. I have found the people who do not live in secret, the ones who have less to hide are the ones who are able to live their lives with out worry. This attitude reminds me of when I was a child and people were almost ashamed to say they were a Christian. I think people should be ready to defend what they believe even if it lands them in jail. God is not ashamed of you! Isn't that all that counts? When we hide and are always in secret about what we do then the world sees what we do as a bad thing. Of course we won't be popular with the public and I doubt we ever will be! Legal or not! At least we will know we lived our lives with out fear. Christ was not very popular, you can bet on that! He did how ever live his life openly according to the word of his Heavenly father. As we all know it led to his death, but in his death came life! Life ever lasting that each one of us through him can be saved! I do not live my life in secret and I am willing to go through hard ships for it. Just like two US Senators have told me "If you live openly and Plural Marriage that you live isn't involving minors or cults we do not see why people have a problem, beyond there own morals." But like I have told them what morals do we live by any more? When sex is advertised every where even on public access. When it is legal for a 12 year old girl to model see through clothes or even nude in the name of "Art" and that's ok with our government, but not a man who has more then one wife? Who are the government to define morals? This is the same government who promote abortions all the way untill a child takes their first breath. I am a man who pays taxes and my taxes go for many things I think are moraly wrong and sinful. I would like to see my tax money go for some thing that benifets every plural family out there. There are many of us out there. So many in fact that if people There are power in numbers and we can change this world for the better. Untill we do how ever to every one else we have to be wrong cause we are running scarred. I would rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I am not!

Thanks for reading every,
Rev Gill
 
Hiya Rev. Gill
I totally agree and I confess that there have been times when I have been one of those who've been fearful. I do feel you are very correct, though. We need to stop hiding. While it can be very difficult to change the minds of people on any issue of significance, we will never effect any change as long as we remain closeted. There is no such thing as an "anonymous revolution" !!!
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
Hey there Faiflight! :D I am just tired of seeing good people who love their families being at the end of their sanity because of being afraid. We can change the world it is up too us though. And I love that quote "anonymous revolution". That was awsome!
Fairlight said:
Hiya Rev. Gill
I totally agree and I confess that there have been times when I have been one of those who've been fearful. I do feel you are very correct, though. We need to stop hiding. While it can be very difficult to change the minds of people on any issue of significance, we will never effect any change as long as we remain closeted. There is no such thing as an "anonymous revolution" !!!
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
There probably needs to be a distinction made in the terms of "fear" and "wisdom" here.

It is true and vitally paramount that we as saints not live as cowards. The Bible is strong in terms of the destiny of cowards (see Rev. 21:8). A believer in Christ has no need to walk in fear or in a cowardly manner.

However, wisdom in the spirit of love also must govern the steps of saints. Jesus said to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." The Bible in Romans 14 says, "Let us make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification . . . . It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will will cause your brother to stumble or be destroyed. SO whatever you believe about these things (conscience issues or issues where there is freedom for people to practice different lifestyles) keep between yourself and God." Additionally in this text the Bible says, "Do not by your eating [a practice] destroy your brother for whom Christ died."

Granted, the doctrine of marriage is not a conscience issue but the practice of it is a conscience issue because some may choose to remain single, some may marry one, and some may marry more.

Therefore, walking with the goal of making peace is contrary to the idea of seeking to lead or cause a revolution. A revolution, if used and defined in its natural sense, means to revolt against established authorities. As saints we can never act in revolt as such shows dishonor. We may disobey but we may never revolt. We may fail to submit but we must be willing to suffer the persecution for our choices and not revolt against the established authority.

The Bible demands that we respect and honor the established authorities which may be in the home, elders in the churches, and civil leaders in the community (legislative, executive, and judicial leaders). The Bible speaks plainly to this issue in the specific words is uses in 1 Peter 2:13-17. A close reading shows a distinction in terms.

Four terms in this text show how to properly conduct ourselves as we go about living out truth even while those who are in authority may not agree with us. It has much to do with a right heart coming out in right practice without a rebellious or revolting attitude or spirit which is so easy to fall into due to the sin of pride, anger, and bitterness which sometimes is covered by the cloak of pursuing truth.

The four terms or phrases are:
1. Submit to all authority (2:13)
2. Show honor to all (2:17)
3. Respect authority (2:18)
4. Honor the King [or governing authority, for us here in America that would be the constitution as well as the three branches of government]. (2:17.

The three Greek words for these key terms are: honor-timao; submit-hypotasso; and respect-phobos. The word honor is used both for all people and unto the king, or ruling body or officials.

Systematic theology seeks to arrive at balanced conclusions by harmonizing all of scripture or portions of scripture or topics into a practical whole for a particular situation. In this instance the question becomes this: How can those who believe and/or practice plural marriage still show honor, respect, and a submissive spirit to people in general and authorities in particular when those may wrongly reject what is right.

That was a key point to Peter's message to these Jewish saints who were being persecuted for their faith in the Messiah. So strong of a point was it that Peter even said, "For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God . . . . If you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."

Paul said it this way, "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil" (Rom. 14:16).

The answer to how to faithfully practice a godly lifestyle that is at the same time being rejected or spoken evil of by leaders is neither to revolt nor to cower down and shut up in cowardardly actions. The way to act is by showing as much honor to all, including the leaders of government, in every way possible and doing so in such a way that the other people will see, know, and feel the respect, honor, and love from us that they will be convicted even if they differ with us in one area.

This is why Peter said, "For it is God's will that by doing good {which is through showing respect and reverence} you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show respect to everyone {which would include even those who are in serious error}. Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king" (2:15-17).

Peter went on to say: "Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened" (1 Peter 3:13-14). This coincides with Jesus's words that as saints we are called to be peacemakers (Matt. 5:9).

So how do we sow peace, show respect and honor, and yet still live a way of life that is unsubmissive to an idea or ruler or leader? By walking in wisdom and love.

Maybe an illustration will help. Let us go back to the days when our African American brothers were persecuted because of their skin color.

Suppose Jerry and John are nieghbors. They both want to be able to marry women of a different race but the local government refuses to allow them to do so because they are second class citizens. In response Jerry writes letters that are revolutionary type letters where he calls for revolt by the other men in the community. He places a specially designed flag out in his yard that symbolizes the spirit of their cause. He and his "girlfriend" flaunt their time together by walking out next to the road and kissing one another as community members and civil leaders drive by. By and large by their actions they are flaunting their position and rejecting the leadership and community standards. They claim God is on their side and that they must "obey God rather than men." Their actions become so annoying and so disruptive that finally one afternoon a police officer and judge conspire together to resolve this disturbance. They drive by and see the man kissing the woman in public and arrest the man and woman for disorderly conduct as well citing him for a lewd act in public.

On the other hand, John takes a different approach. He and his lady see the error of the community and government. They know they have the freedom in the Lord to marry and to do so righteously. But they also love the community they live in and they desire to keep peace among the community and between them and the leaders. So they seek to unite but to do so without all of the pomp and fanfar that came along with Jerry. They spend time together, love each other, yet they are wise in how public they display their union as the time has not yet arrived where they can be so open about it. They work behind the scenes, talking to people about Christ, making donations to people running for elected office, helping the poor, speaking well of the community and leaders as they go about their daily life. They share the gospel as they can and seek to lead people towards the truth on an individual basis rather than through a great fanfare of activity where they call for revolt until they have equal rights. At times community members, police, judges, and legislators discover of their love and their union. Some are concerned, some are rude to them about it, but overall many, even those who disagree with them still have a hard time being vocal and angry towards them because they have been blessed by these people in many ways by their prayers, their support in campaigns, and their loyalty to the overall good the community. Though they experience some persecution over time they build friendships, relationships, and bonds of those in the community to where finally 25 years later many are now wanting to defend them and make it legal for a man of African American status to have the same legal rights to marry someone of another ethnic background. In one of the community meetings even a local police officer stands up to testify saying: "I know John and his mate. For years I was against them yet year after year he and his mate have shown me kindness and gentless towards me, even when i was rude to them. I even wrote them a ticket one day for going one mile over the speed limit and they were still respectful, kind, gracious, and the lady even still brought to the police sqaud room homemade cookies at Christmas time. I've seen them volunteer in the community, I've seen them show love even when we have not shown love back to them. I still don't think I want my daughter to marry an African American man but i don't think this needs to be a law anymore. I think it needs to be personal choices. If these two people claim love for each other then I think we ought to let love have its way even if many of us would not choose this way for ourselves." The community at large decides this is right and they remove the law forbidding the practice.

The difference here has to do with spirit, attitude, relational skill. The goal is not to either revolt or stir up a storm nor to cower down and be silent. The goal is to be Christ-like as we show honor, and respect, especially even when we may not be able to fully submit to someone or something in all areas because of a higher authority over us. We should never seek to cause a controversy, nor should we ever enjoy being in a controversy.

Furthermore, we ought to make sure that we are showing love, respect, honor, and a peaceful attitude in so many other areas where we can and should agree. By doing this we can love those who declare themselves to be enemies of our positions. This is why Paul said, "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse" as well as "if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone" (Rom. 12:14,18).

At times a couple/family will need to remain silent and not speak of their faith or union. It is the loving thing to do sometimes. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will lead people to do this. But at times the Spirit will lead the same family to speak and share the truth. There is no one set universal rule here. Maturity, balance, walking in step with the Spirit is the golden rule here. One should not be a coward about their belief yet one should not always speak his views either to everyone at all times in all places, which is unwise and foolish and can even be destructive to a brother or sister who may not be ready to digest such a topic.

As with all things, love must be the key motive in why one does or does not speak about his or her views. Sometimes out of love one will need to speak and use the moment as a time for discipleship. Yet in some cases to speak would be disrespectful and hurtful to another. Most of this knowledge can only come about by following the Holy Spirit and by having godly people around you who can give good healthy counsel in the spirit of wisdom. As Proverbs says, there is wisdom in the multitude of counselors.

Dr. K.R. Allen
 
Ok bro I can respect your stance. I on the other hand do not believe you should have to be silent about who you are. If people can not except me for my beliefs then so be it. They can choose not to be around me. When you shut up or hide who you truly are you are not your self and you are not content. I am open with every one on my beliefs. Some are like awsome some want to argue scripture with me. Like I tell them I do not care to have a bible fight, for this is some thing they need to discover on their own if it is right or not for them. As far as people following the law I got big news for folks weather they know it or not. Weather you are silent about it or not you are still breaking the law by practising plural marriage. That is not even a debate. By being silent how ever and lieing about who you are still makes one a liar. You can still be a liar by with holding things that are truth. Many people try to sugar caot things and basically say they are not lieing if the question never arises ex. I go out I am already married. I find a lovely lady who I am very interested in. Because I asked her out she doesn't assumed I am married. We start dating for a month I have yet to tell her I am married. Does this not ake me a liar. I know in my heart of hearts she thinks she is the only one, when in fact she is not. Doesn't this make me a liar? People down grade things just because they think that some one doesn't know cause they never asked it's not a lie.

am wandering how many people if asked straight out on their thoughts on plural marriage would come right out and say it? I honestly doubt half would be honest and say what they really feel. More so if it was in front of a group of people whom you know for a fact would never let you live it down. I know of people who have lied to siblings and parents about being part of a plural family as well as churches in fear of being rejected. You in all honesty are lieing. If you believe in some thing and lieing is the only way to keep their peace and I have to suffer with lieing on my soul eating me up forget about it. When you live in secret you are living a lie even if it is only between you and God.

I am not trying to come down on any one, honestly. I am not talking about being violent with government cause this would not be good for any of us. I am mearly saying that if people lived more openly about who they are. Maybe there would be less reprocussion with the ones who do live openly and laws would be passed because hey maybe they will realise that we are mentally competent, God fearing people who are not interested in marrying children, but simply wish to live our lives as a bigger family the way our forefathers did.

I know of families who takes one wife to one part of town and takes the other one to another part of town and goes to two seperate churches with each one. They will not even go out as a family as a whole to a restruant because they are so worried what people would think. But as a result of living this way they have no real friends who will except them for them. Maybe I was raised different. I was always told "you can change the world by not being afraid of who you are. Why would I want to be any differen't? There is nothing wrong with a revolution. To most people revolution means violence, but that is not the case. We can have a revolution by living the that God chooses for us too live, by voting for things to happen and so forth. It is not unbiblical to have a revolution depending on how you go about it.

Now DR I am not good at reading 5dollar word I can barely define Tongan 2dollar words,lol words so maybe I took it wrong. Basically here's what I got from what you wrote. So please correct me if I am incorrect as to what I have defined.
To me you are saying it is wise to keep our mouth shut and live the way we live as not to disturb the heard. We need to not try to change the laws cause it is pointless.

Like I said I am not good well people who speak so elequent (if I even spelled it right,lol) . I am smart but simple when it comes to speaking. BTW I am not trying to pick a fight on here with any one cause most people here would beat me in a just by how well they can write.lol. All I am saying is be who you are inside and out side of closed doors. In the end I am happy that people at least know what I believe. Cause if God ever grants me a second wife then at least people won't be surprised or ever wander what my intentions are with either wife I have. They sure already know there is no talking me out of it. I will also never feel the need to be scarred to take my wives to the same places where my friends are despite weather it be together or apart and introduce them to the same group of friends as my wife. I know I ramble and sorry for that maybe the ADD kikin in,lol. Hopefully I explained myself well enough if not just kick me and move on,lol.
 
Actually Keith said outright that we should try to change the laws in the big 5th paragraph from the bottom. He's saying, if I can cut it down a lot, that there is a place to be tactful and know when to say what to who. That kind of tact has nothing to do with fear, and is intended to produce a more receptive audience when the thing that needs to be said is said. Working person by person until you garner enough support is better than calling out a lynch mob and ending whatever good you could have done right then and there.
 
But how are you calling out a lynch mob when you are living your life? I don't have a mob after me for my beliefs. Even if I did wouldn't matter I am still going to live my life to the fullest with out fear. Are you against people living openly in plural marriage? I think every one should be able to live openly about who they are. Plural families have stayed in the shadows for what around 200 years now in the US? When is that tactfulness supposed to happen? It may never happen in my life time. So I am saying lets at least get the ball rolling. I know many here won't live in Plural Marriage openly I am simply telling people another way if they aren't happy with living in secret.
 
Rev,

I think I understand where you are coming from. What I am suggesting is a word of wisdom, i.e. the other side of the coin so to speak.

The essence of what I am saying is that different scenarios brought about by God's providence require different responses. I don't think a person ought to lie, although at times God honored those who were deceptive for a higher cause of showing mercy (the Hebrew mid-wives who deceived the government in order to protect the life of innocent children and Rahab who deceived in order to protect the spies to name two cases).

I agree one should not live in fear. But one should not live as a fool either. Some people are reckless with their views and they in fact violate the law of Christ that we should not do anything if it will destroy another. There is no way around that law. If I know sharing something with someone prematurely will do so much damage that it may injure them severely in their faith walk or in their current status of maturity then the obligation is upon me not to do whatever it is that may injure them. Granted, the longer they are around me the more they will learn incrementally. But that is the point. We want to be wise and build relationships, not burn people with our in your face crassness. In that I am speaking of those who say and act like this: "Bless God I believe and practice this and if you don't like then you'll just have to get over it or get lost. Got it?"

Wisdom steers an in between course between being a coward and lying and being a reckless uncaring crass person who burns people with truth.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we do not need rambos running around with their mission being to tell the world about plural marriage as the first and foremost theme. The foremost theme is Christ's love working to reconcile us to God. In that process as we go the subject of plural marriage will come up as people naturally study the word. A respectful and incremental approach to discipleship is key. One word spoken too quickly outside of the leadership of the Spirit can destroy opportunity of discipleship. Thus, sometimes people need to refrain from being so open about private matters so quickly. To always speak of something at all times in all places when you know the matter is deeply controversial and polarizing to others is a lack of love. We must be considerate of the weaker brethren and people. It would be like me always talking about Christ to an unbeliever. In doing so I could damage him or her. Patience is what i'm trying to stresss here. Ecclesiastes says there is a time to speak and a time to be silent (Eccl. 3:7). Over time if one builds a relationship with the person then Christ will orchestrate an opportunity to speak the truth in love at a time when that person is willing to hear it.

My illustration I was using shows a couple being honest about who they are but they were not rude about it, in your face, confrontational, or anarchists on a journey to start a revolution and in doing so showed disrespect towards those who disagreed. If any minority position ever hopes to gain respect and credibility it must have people in that position who show large doses of respect and honor to all who are outside of that position. Honor and respect are forms of love. Sometimes witholding some information can be honorable and respectful. That is my point herein. I agree with you in many respects about people not being cowards. But i also stress the other side of the coin, don't be reckless and irresponsible with any doctrine, not just with plural marriage but any other truth. Too much stress and too much of an emphasis on any one truth can distort the whole.

There is nothing wrong with knowing in the Spirit when to be private and when to be public. Again it would be a case of wisdom and being in step with the Holy Spirit. The same would apply to any doctrine. Romans 14 uses the issue with alcohol. One brother abstains, another drinks. The one who abstains cannot require the one who drinks to stop. Nor can the one who drinks tell the one who abstains he must drink. If the one who is free to drink knows that drinking in front of one who abstains offends him he should not do this and drink privately or not in front of the one who abstains until that one is strong enough to handle that.

I know when it comes to a wife or wives this is much more difficult but at times it still can be and should be done. To those on the far outside circles of someone's relationship it may be wise to use generic terms: these are my friends, these ladies are my family, or these ladies are my neighbors, etc etc (many ideas and many phrases can be used truthfully). All of that could be spoken in truth without going into all of the details. To those who are closer to the inner circles of the family with the right doses of truth and love being applied more could be shared as they come closer to the truth in Christ. This is just one example. Again the goal is to balance the art of being peacemakers as well as the goal of being faithful, true, and respectful.

I hope this makes sense and it not confusing. Like I said above, I am with you on the need to live with courage. I'm adding to that the idea that it needs to be Spirit led wise courage and not irresponsible reckless courage where it hurts and destroys others.

You are most certainly right in that if people don't like what a person is then the people can leave. But our goal as Christians is to be so kind, loving, and gracious that they don't want to leave our presence. How we handle this truth and any truth can contribute to that reaction in them. We can be gracious and kind with incremental doses of truth shared at the right time, which makes us and the gospel more attractive, or we can be in their face, quick tongued, like or leave it spirited people who are unattractive to others because we do not dispaly the spirit and love of Christ by our presentation.

Dr. Allen
 
True enough. I haven't met very many people who have left more so cause I am excepting of them and they become exceptive of me. I have a lot of people I am around and some very close friends as well who all know who I am and what I believe (Most didn't like me in the beginning,but they came around). I guess I am lucky that way. It is not that I wish to chase people away more so I am trying to weed out those who will make me lose my focus. I am very determined to live my life openly as to not offend those who I have known for a long time by them finding out on their own. To me they would feel more betrayed not matter what my excuse is.
 
You know, it might do you to remember where the term lynch mob came from. Black people who where just living their lives and went to the wrong places, said the wrong things, loved the wrong person, and there comes the mob. I am very much against any polygamist who would either recklessly endanger their families via openness or seek to tactlessly shove their views down other peoples throats. On is bad for their family and the other is bad for the cause I seek to promote. The tactfulness happens when you know someone well and the line of conversation and their mood and demeanor all work together to get them seriously thinking about the topic rather than rejecting it out of hand.

Now, the overwhelming majority of our friends know our stance and are amicable too it, one side of my family knows and most of my wife's immediate family knows, the ball is rolling with us. But in many cases I had to wait until the right time and place to persuade someone properly, in a few cases this was over the course of years. With some other we are waiting until a particular set of circumstances arises, and if that takes another few years so be it.

The right circumstances have included anything waiting for a holiday when said person is in a good mood too waiting until a discussion of polygamy comes up in and of itself (which it has for us in several cases) especially when someone says something like 'if we allow homosexuality polygamy is next' thats prime to ask them if something banned by the Bible is actually better than something allowed by it.

But of course your right that living in fear is foolish.
 
Very well said Tlaloc. may God's grace continue to guide you in those areas.
 
Well I can be lynched here for not being spanish here or even for not being a homosexual out here and yes it does happen. People can be jumped or lynched as you put it for any reason. Might be because I am big and mean enough if I have to be,that keeps most people at bay (The joy of being polynesian) Where I am from plural marriage is typical. You either live it or you don't. Most people I know don't care one way or the other. As for homosexual people riding on our victories I hioghly doubt it as they are still trying to get laws passed for their kind of polygamy already. They will probably get it before we do cause every one is afraid to stand up to them. I just think it is wrong to have to exclude one wife from things I do in my daily life cause I am worried about people not liking the way I live. We are only here for a very short season. I want to enjoy the gifts God has givin me in my life. If there is some bigger cause you are trying to promote that is cool, I have a feeling what you are promoting and what I am promoting are two different things though. I am not the silent type I guess you could say. My friends used to call me willey cause they used to say I am wiledout.

Tlaloc said:
You know, it might do you to remember where the term lynch mob came from. Black people who where just living their lives and went to the wrong places, said the wrong things, loved the wrong person, and there comes the mob. I am very much against any polygamist who would either recklessly endanger their families via openness or seek to tactlessly shove their views down other peoples throats. On is bad for their family and the other is bad for the cause I seek to promote. The tactfulness happens when you know someone well and the line of conversation and their mood and demeanor all work together to get them seriously thinking about the topic rather than rejecting it out of hand.

Now, the overwhelming majority of our friends know our stance and are amicable too it, one side of my family knows and most of my wife's immediate family knows, the ball is rolling with us. But in many cases I had to wait until the right time and place to persuade someone properly, in a few cases this was over the course of years. With some other we are waiting until a particular set of circumstances arises, and if that takes another few years so be it.

The right circumstances have included anything waiting for a holiday when said person is in a good mood too waiting until a discussion of polygamy comes up in and of itself (which it has for us in several cases) especially when someone says something like 'if we allow homosexuality polygamy is next' thats prime to ask them if something banned by the Bible is actually better than something allowed by it.

But of course your right that living in fear is foolish.
 
This is a good discussion. I feel like we are stepping back and actually listening to each other. Cool!! I find myself agreeing with both Rev Gill and Dr. Allen, Tlaloc is in the middle making good sense also. Living secretly is very uncomfortable, always looking over your shoulder or waiting for the other shoe to drop. The sword of Damocles hangs ever precariously. There is a feeling of dishonesty, living in the closet and peeking out through the crack of the door. An honest open marital relationship is freeing to the soul and honors the institution of marriage and each wife. However, as pointed out, flaunting carelessly is not only unwise but also dangerous to a healthy and safe family. I would like to suggest a change in our thinking about plural marriage. There seems to be several motivations that I find on different forums. I would like to see us focus more upon the reality of Biblical Marriage and all its parts and let the idea of plurality be a secondary issue. If plurality of wives is our main focus, we have missed the boat as badly as those that failed to board the ark. It is marriage that is at stake, love, leadership, headship, submission, faithfulness, protection, provision and above all reflecting the relationship of God with His people. Plural marriage is really just two or more marriages at the same time. It is time for us as believers in Christ and in the first institution created by God (marriage and family) to stand up and be counted for that truth and institution. However, we need to do it right. Faithful to God and family, demonstrating courage as well as love and caring. Stand tall, stand firm, but stand with the Spirit of God who is first described as love. Utilizing wisdom and courage as twin brothers of effort will take us much further than radicalism and argumentation. I for one, plant my feet when ever anyone gets in my face to tell me how it has to be. May or may not be right, but it is in my nature to resist confrontation. Therefore I expect others to do the same if I get in their face. The old adage about catching more flies with honey than vinegar, certainly applies here. Let us set a good example to the world around us by demonstrating our relationship with God and our families by living out our faith and convictions simultaenously.
 
IMHO, this issue is being over-complicated.
There is a huge difference between flaunting one's lifestyle and simply being honest about our lives. Recently I was confronted by two people about my belief in polygyny. My response to them both was an honest one. I chose to answer their questions truthfully. To my surprise, they handled it much better than I had anticipated. I have decided that from now on this is the way I'm going to handle it....with honesty and integrity.

I think this is really what Gill meant by his post. :)
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
There are different personality types, one of them in particular tends to be aggressive, while yet another avoids conflict at all costs. On issues I believe strongly in I have no problem confronting the issue head on, while other issues require a different approach to achieve the desired results. From the current events that have unfolded politically and legally I think we have an incredible opportunity to present our beliefs to the authorities and ask for change. What we seem to lack is a cohesive effort to do so. I applaud your efforts and will do what I am able to support and assist your efforts. Someone needs to take the lead in this, and I think organizing the numerous organizations that understand these issues Biblically need to be united to become a much more powerful political force.
 
Fairlight, true indeed, there is a big difference in flaunting and living a honest life. One often comes from pride and one comes from purity.

John, yep, I totally agree that the focus ought to be on biblical marriage and not on the plural aspect. I even like to take it one step back further, back to the Great Commission. A man making disciples will also know how to make disciples out of some lady or ladies who may also become his mate or mates and even to the children in the family. The focus of our life ought to be centered there, a Christo-centric mission where our lives are 100% dedicated to sharing God's love, grace, and truth to all yet methodically done in the the right doses of small increments. I mean even Jesus told his own 12 disciples that he had much more to tell them but they were not yet able to handle it. If that was true for those who walked side by side with Christ then how much more so with those in our era in regard to some truths?

We must always remember that since a wife is to be devoted to doing good unto her husband all the days or her life (Proverbs 31) so too we as the bride of Christ must be about doing good under his headship all the days of our life (Col. 1:18). Christ as our head then means he is our focus in everything. Which goes back to your point John about the need to make godly unions based upon Christ and if that brings along with it multiple mates under the headship of man then so be it. The headship point goes back to the headship of Christ. As a model he shows us we ought to be about making disciples as he is doing with us as we are transformed into his image. As we go about making disciples we will, like Christ, introduce truth in incremental doses as the Holy Spirit leads us.

And in that sharing I believe there will be different situations that call for a myriad of careful responses that are based in biblical precedent and prompted by the Holy Spirit. In some cases it is right and holy to be straight forward about the union or multiple unions. In other cases it may be right and holy not to disclose everything or everything all at once. Some of that depends on the people that are involved in the matter. Trouble arises when one person tries to make a universal law that applies to all people in all places in all circumstances. Technically that ethic is from the non-evangelical scholar Dr. Immanual Kant. We call it the Kantian Ethic. That ethic does not fit with the ethic of Scripture, though currently it is popular among many circles of conservative Christianity. I find that odd because Kant was not a a firm believer in the objective truth of God. But needless to say his view has many people supporting it today.

I like examples as they are powerful ways to communicate ideas. I'll try and be short, but here is an example that removes the discussion outside of the plural marriage union issue and into Jews and the holocaust. Suppose you are living in the era of World War II and a Jew is on the run. This Jew is a friend of yours who is also a believer in Christ. So he is both a friend and brother in the Lord. He runs to your house. You know the soldiers are coming to kill him. You just saw it happen two days before in a neighbor's house. You therefore take the Jew and hide him under a trap basement door. The soldiers knock on your door and ask if you have any Jews in your home? They further say: "If you give them up we will spare your life and say nothing else about it." What do you do? Do you intentionally deceive? Do you tell the absolute, full truth and give the Jew up to be killed? Do you try and trick the soldiers without being deceptive? Do you try and kill the several soldiers to try and protect the Jew knowing that short of a divine miracle you and the Jew shall both die and then you'll levea behind your wife and family who need you?

How one responds to this has much to do with how we fulfill the "love your neighbor" commands of Scripture. Basically there are three positions in Christendom on how the above should be handled:

1. Unqualified Absolutism-Tell the absolute, unqualified, full disclosure truth to the Soldier even if it gets the Jew killed.
2. Conflicting Absolutism-Lie and then repent after the soldiers leaves for doing the lesser of two evils; i.e. a lie is less evil than giving the Jew over to be murdered by a corrupt government.
3. Graded Absolutism-Carefully word your response in such a way that it protects the Jew while not necessarily being considered a lie by God (though it may actually deceive; like Rahab did or the Hebrew mid-wives did) who at that moment holds you accountable to the higher law of mercy for defending a life.

I share that not to open a firestorm debate on ethics but only to say that when the subject of marriage comes up one has to consider which ethic they think is the biblical ethic and most loving ethic to their closest neighbor, which in marriage is the spouse. I can't imagine any spouse showing love to their spouse by doing something that would get them severely hurt or persecuted. Replace the scenario above with the Jew being your spouse! It really gets personal then.

But beyond personal issues. A godly man and husband is not just thinking about his own interestes or his own family interests. Paul at times would not give meat to people in the fellowships because they could not handle it. Sometimes we have to think like him and do the same. Furthermore, EVERY GODLY man loves his neighbors who are sometimes also his enemies, the neighbors who do wrong or will do wrong to us. A biblical ethic goes even further and deeper. A biblical ethic looks at the circumstance and says: "if I tell this soldier (or the one who will use the information wrongly) the unqualified, absolute, full disclosure truth then he will kill the Jew and he will have to answer for that sin as well on judgment day. Thus, I am required to look out for his good and best interest so I'm not going to give this Jew up (or my spouse) because I know this will be bad for this man on judgment day."

Can you imagine the testimony Christians would have if they even did their best to love their enemies and those who persecuted them by looking out for them by looking at their life with the end of their life being before the Great White Throne of God on judgment day? It is something to ponder and consider as we go about making decisions. Practically it means, we do not want to give something to someone if we know they will use it wrongly and then be held accountable for it. It would also apply to immature Christians as well. If we know sharing something with someone will lead them to make bad decisions then we should refrain out of our love ethic so that person does not do something to hurt another and themselves. A good scenario is like this: "John borrows a gun from Billy to go fishing. When he returns Billy is at John's door mad asking for his gun back. John had just received a phone call from his wife that Billy had been in a fight with his wife and threatened to kill her when he got his gun back. Knowing this John explained to Billy that he had left the gun somewhere and would have to go back and get it. John intentionally deceived Billy. The gun was elsewhere, just 15 yards away in the truck where had had left it instead of placing it in his tackle box. Billy leaves mad but without his gun."

In this scenario John did right. His love for the life of Billy's wife and his love for Billy, who John did not want to see get charged for murder and have to answer to God for that, led John to make the best decision he could at the moment in time that God by his providence had him within. A true scenario, and one where both legally and spiritually John did the right thing. Technically by the state law John at that point had stolen Billy's gun. Spiritually it technically looks like John lied. But higher laws and his careful response based in his love for God and his neighbors (Billy and Billy's wife) led him to make a honorable decision that was in the best interest of all people involved, and God honoring one at that.

My point I am stressing here is that our love must not just stop for our Jewish friend, or spouse, or neighbor (like for Billy's wife), it must go even further to those around us, even our enemies (defined by those who seek to do wrong with whatever we give to them because of their spiritual condition or spiritual immaturity). Thus, that is why I say that we must always keep in mind what our words and teachings and our lifestyles do to others around us. Life is not about us nor is it just about our family. A Christ-centered ethic, a love motivated ethic, a biblically validated ethic must look at all of the factors involved before making a decision. It must take into account the truth, the love your neighbor ethic, and the maturity of those asking for the information. When looking at the total picture sometimes it is wise, holy, and right to share the full picture. But in some other cases it may be unwise, and even unloving, to share everything with an unqualfied or full disclosure stance. No one size answer fits all here, despite Dr. Immanual Kant's ideology that is pervasive today in many circles.

Thus in my thinking and counsel to others I suggest a life of courage with wisdom and love driving the courage instead of a reckless courage.

I guess I could say it in one word: BALANCE. So Fairlight you are most certainly correct. It is rather simple and should not be over-complicated, at least in one sense of the term. Balance is a simple term and idea. But like learning to ride a bicycle, though the key is simply one word (balance), it sure takes a long time, and even in many cases many falls, bumbs, and bruises, to learn how to achieve that fine art we call balance. The only way to actually learn the art is to study it and to practice it......something that is taking place right here among this family of believers, even within this discussion itself.

Dr. Allen
 
Scarecrow said:
From the current events that have unfolded politically and legally I think we have an incredible opportunity to present our beliefs to the authorities and ask for change. What we seem to lack is a cohesive effort to do so. I applaud your efforts and will do what I am able to support and assist your efforts. Someone needs to take the lead in this, and I think organizing the numerous organizations that understand these issues Biblically need to be united to become a much more powerful political force.

Bingo ! :D
I couldn't agree more ! We won't effect any change politically or socially unless mobilization occurs. And mobilization won't occur "anonymously" :) Which brings us right back to Rev. Gill's first message in this thread !
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
@ Rev

I never suggested excluding anyone, and I said that people say that we will ride on the coattails of homosexual victories and when they say that it is a good chance to make them think. And yeah, people can get 'lynched' for any reason, the reasons are not random or unpredictable. If being open about polygamy will foreseeable and legitimately endanger someones family then there is an obligation to be private about it. If any family in the certain U.S. States chooses to be private it should be counted to them as wisdom and discretion rather than fear, their obligation is to their family first. I trust they can work quietly and make a difference there. Even if someone (Like you and I) is in a place they can be open some people who are persuadable can be tough to crack. In such a case it is wisdom to choose the location and conditions of the confrontation and to take the time to thoroughly study the person and make use of 'skirmish' opportunities without getting into the whole conflict. There are strongholds of tradition to be won in a war of words, its worth taking the time to use tactics. That also is not something to be confused with fear of any kind.

I respect you being open, my concern is that you're getting down on people doing good things because they are not the same as you. Lines like

They will probably get it before we do cause every one is afraid to stand up to them.

contribute quite a lot to those sentiments. Many people and groups have stood up against the homosexual lobby in both the US and Canada, people have stood the line against outright violence on their part. People are standing the line dispute lawsuits and other legal actions. They still got through because of an unethical unelected politician here and they can still get through there due to similar corruptions. Give the people (the majority in quite a few cases) credit, and give Poly people some credit as well. I agree they shouldn't live in fear, but I believe most of them do not and that there are legitimate reasons behind the quiet ones.

@ John

I would like to see us focus more upon the reality of Biblical Marriage and all its parts and let the idea of plurality be a secondary issue.

Bang on. There are quite a few friends of our that are fine with us being poly just because they are fine with a lot of things. The real victories come when someone is opposed to it but in convincing them of plurality they are then open to the whole of Biblical Marriage and are ready to refine their whole view of marriage. Those cases are worth waiting for.

@ Keith
Ugh, don't get me started on Kant :)

But if its not too much of a tangent I'd like to comment that deception per se isn't actually condemned by scripture anywhere I know of. Deception with intent for harm is, but not deception in general. I'm happy to lie to my wife, how else would I get her anniversary present stowed away without her knowing?
 
Any attempt to deceive is a lie.

I very clearly remember reading that in the Bible about 10 years ago. I had been deceived by a friend and came across a passage as I was reading and pointed it out to my first wife. When I come across that passage again I will try to remember to PM you with it.

We have been conditioned by our society that little white lies are ok, but they are not. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. In your example of hiding a gift from your wife it is better to say nothing. If she asks you can make a statement that is not a lie but simply a statement "If I tell you anything it will spoil the surprise" or "please don't ask me about that" any number of responses would be appropriate. That way you neither reveal what you want kept from her nor do you lie.

When a woman asks about how she looks, in most cases she is all but begging you to lie to her. The scriptures warn us against flattery, and in my opinion when women put men in such a position they are acting as Eve did in the garden, tempting him to sin.

Flame suit on...bring it...
 
I totally agree with this!

If being open about polygamy will foreseeable and legitimately endanger someones family then there is an obligation to be private about it. If any family in the certain U.S. States chooses to be private it should be counted to them as wisdom and discretion rather than fear, their obligation is to their family first.


I do not live in fear on this or any other subject. It is just that I do not feel the need to cast my pearls to swine so I wait to see if they are swine or not. Also if I choose to keep secret from some what I believe and how I live my life, it is not out of fear but duty to my family and God since these pearls are his after all. :D
 
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