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Birth Control: Is It Taking Life?

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This then IS Armageddon

The Devil works in devious ways, and where you think he is, he is not, and where you think he is not, there he is. So, we, sheep that we are, are always unprepared for the wolf stalking for who he might destroy.

We "sheep" are tripped up by our own "goodness" such that we are perpetually caught unawares. Take the verse everyone knows that goes, "Be ye harmless as doves...." Yet what ordinary Christian can finish that sentence, or interpret it properly. The second part of the sentence is even more important than the first, because it is so often ignored, but Christians like the silly sheep they are, just keep on ignoring it. The second half of the sentence reads, ".... and as cunning as a serpent."

Serpent? The Devil? Are we to be as cunning and deceitful as the serpent in the Garden of Eden, as the devil? Well, God says we should. Christians recoil in horror at such a commandment. But, if we are to be saved from the wrath of the devil in the here and now, and the wrath of God to come, we must pay attention to what the Bible clearly says. It is our only hope.

In the realm of children, which is nothing less than our whole lives, we are living in a fairytale world of our own imaginings, living and dying without a clue. Wake up, our children ARE us, "If you have seen the Father you have seen the Son, and if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father." That says it all.

When we die, which we do regularly, (every 70 years everyone on earth dies, that is 6 Billion people die every 70 years, and that is about 100 million every year,) all we leave behind is our children. Every other single achievement and honor is left behind, and buried with us. Only our children survive us on to the end of the world.

One hundred million people die every year from all causes. If we had no more children in 70 years humanity would become totally extinct. The entire future of humanity, not to speak of America, is contained in the wombs of women, and increasingly they are able to make the decision on how they will dispose of that power. Benjamin Franklin was 18 out of 20 children. Today he would never have been born.

We are all here because ""a baby had a baby" so to speak. The Virgin Mary is said to have probably been about 13 when Jesus was born. Certainly men in his time were full men and able to marry and have kids at 13. That is what Bar Mitzvah is all about, and girls did not even have a set time when they became women, but it surely was younger than 13.

This is the culture that produced Jesus, and indeed all of us as well. Now, the devil has hit upon a sure way to destroy God's creation, which has been his goal all along, and that is the simple expedient of birth control . A little tiny harmless pill that promises free sex for everyone, any time, and any place, at any age, and no consequences or responsibilities is the weapon his is using to effectively destroy us, who are God's creation.

This little pill etc, even makes women rape proof, and incest proof, at least from the consequence of pregnancy. It make men bullet proof as well. They can misuse any woman's body to their hearts content and pay no price because no child equals a free pass for them. This little devil's pill (and its avalanche of helper look alikes) allows sex to be totally divorced from marriage, children, responsibility, and even God.

Our birth rate is going through the floor because "everyone" wants it to. Business wants workers with fewer dependents so both husbands and wives have to work for them. Government hates people, period, as they consider them to just be a nuisance. I have heard many pastors talk about how couples with few or no children give more to the church than couples with large families, so guess what they favor. Our enemies both at home and abroad want us to have few or no children because they want us dead and that is one way to accomplish that. And the devil for sure wants us all dead. We were not made in his image, so we are not his children, and he doesn't even want us as his slaves. He just wants us all dead to prove God wrong in creating us in His image in the first place.

The tax rate on young couples with children is much higher today than it was 50 years ago, even adjusted for inflation. In fact every demographic group in this society is better off now than 50 years ago, except young marrieds with children. Old people are far better off, and the young, (what we have off them) are better off, and certainly lawyers and doctors are better off. The only part of our society that is not better off, comparatively, is young 20 somethings, especially those married with children. Mothers today have a far lower status than they had 50 years ago, and so it goes on item after items. We see society, government and the churches waging war on the family. We have senior discounts, but where are the discounts for young families?

The government has written thousands of new laws designed to make children a liability. It is surprising anyone is having any children. Safety seats for children and 1000 dollar fines for not using them sound fine, but who has to pay for the expensive child seats and who has to pay these draconian fines for forgetting us use them, and who has to spend a portion of their lives just fitting kids in and out of them. I just mention this one thing, but there are literally thousands of laws (most all written by Democrats for obvious reasons) that have this sort of impact on young families and make children a liability instead of an asset to the family.

If we want to defeat this army of Satan arrayed against us, with a knife at our throats, we are going to have to become "cunning as a serpent," and stop being excessively harmless as a dove.
 
The contradiction and the forked tongued things that I read is quite upsetting. :roll:

The best and the brightest...... so the fact that one was poor as a child, homeless as a teenager, and since one don't have a TV or other such modern useless items that woman is "poor" and doesn't have a piece of paper stating one can sit for years on end listening to truths mixed with lies- So you don't care about women in situations like that what their use of birth control is because you want to focus on your 'christian' breeding programs.

The "rules" of birth control should apply to all, not to the ones we want to pump out kids.
A child born by believers does not inherit the faith of the parents. The child must accept God and be born again themselves. Christians birthing more children will not make more christians. Christians BEING Jesus followers, imitators of Him, will make more christians by being a witness of the Holy Spirit.
(If you don't believe that fact, come visit northeast Oklahoma. They love god and christ, but it is Gomorrah in reality.)

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mohandas Gandhi - Gandhi once considered christianity but he was not accepted in the local church body because he was not white.

Now, I am against bc in all pharmacuetical fashions; not only because in all but rare situations are they not regular abortions, but also because due to genetics all the hormones and chemicals found in all bc cause serious cancer for me and my sisters. My older sisters had to find out the hard way, I am blessed enough to have had a relationship with Jesus before such things were in need of consideration. My sisters got cancer, I so far have not but if I were to use any of such products I would, except through a miracle, develop cancer very quickly. I suspect that many health issues can be traced to the chemicals and hormones found in BC.

God loves all people and children even the children of the wicked. Why did He demand the genocide of the peoples that Isreal lived amongst - because they gladly tortured and sacrificed children; they did not love the children of the creation that is made in His image.

Now if one accepts the biblical views of birth control than one also must have compassion and charity on the parents of these children.
As one poster pointed out, the difficulties of raising children in the USA. Society-even the christians- has expectations on what is a good, fit home for children and they looked down on those who don't have what they think is right. The ol' saying that "they shouldn't be having children they can't afford". Even on this site I have seen people go "tis - tis" at those who accept government aide to feed and support their children.

So if you accept this view of BC than you must be accepting of the children that come and not look down on the parents who struggle to support them to the expected level that is required by society (especially the USA) that if they don't meet said level they are unfit and have their children taken from them.

Also if you accept this view of BC, are you willing to make the sacrifice to take in the children that parents can't care for and care for them yourself?

If you are not willing to accept this and make the personal sacrifice to care for them then do not preach it.
Walk the walk don't just talk the talk. Don't blame satan for your lack of walking, he can only stumble you not immobilize you.
 
Amen, Rebeka. I agree with you. I was on birth control for many years to control a separate issue entirely. I don't think that chemical birth control is a good thing. That said, I do believe that people who bring children into the world should be ready, willing and able to care for them.

I had a good friend whose adult child and his girlfriend informed me that they didn't believe in birth control which is how they came to be unwed and pregnant. The irony of that struck me. It seems to me that if you are not going to believe in birth control you should not believe in premarital sex. But that is just a funny remembrance on my part.

I have never had a child, mostly due to the before mentioned dependence on birth control, but I have to say that there have been times when I have been very angry at God for not letting me have children while he lets people who abuse and neglect theirs have many.

SweetLissa
 
The Mayo clinic has this description of how birth control pills work. It seems to work on several fronts which is probably why it is so effective.

Hormonal contraceptives, a popular method of birth control, offer highly effective, reversible pregnancy prevention. These methods prevent pregnancy by inhibiting ovulation, by altering cervical mucus to decrease sperm mobility and by impairing embryo implantation in the uterus. Besides preventing pregnancy, hormonal contraceptives have other beneficial effects, including regular, shorter and less painful menstrual periods — or for some methods, no periods at all. The first hormonal contraceptive was the combination birth control pill, which appeared on the U.S. market in the early 1960s.

SweetLissa
 
sweetlissa said:
That said, I do believe that people who bring children into the world should be ready, willing and able to care for them.

On top of that though, we must realize that what we might think is "ready, willing and able" is not the same as another thinks.

Is it okay for parents who live in the rural USA with no indoor plumbing, no electricity in their one room log cabin with a dirt floor to have 10 children?
Is it okay for them to have to have "slim pickens" at the dinner tabele because the harvest is late or was mostly destroyed?

Many christians would look down at them for not providing for their children properly.

- - - And if you think people don't live like this today, I will invite to come tour our local area, where there are families exactly like this. - And it is not because they don't work, or are lazy, have an addiction of some kind. -

The issue I want to point out is many of the same christians who "bible thump" BC, also condemn the type of parents I describe above. To those I ask, will you pay for the water to be brought to their home, or electricity and pay the monthly bill?

God gave them those children and HE knew what their economic status was; don't judge or look down at the parents just because you have an economical prejuiduce.

I am exhorting those who are supporting this biblical view of BC to NOT be double minded or forked tongued.
 
I think that it is okay for people anywhere to have as many children as they want to have. But I don't think it is okay for them to rely on welfare and other programs (even the local church benevolance fund) to support them. This is where I get angry. There are so many people out there procreating without even a plan for how to care for them. I don't care if they have tv or new clothes or what ever, I just think that people should be responsible for the children they create. Then it would be easier for the rest of us to take care of the orphans.

SweetLissa
 
error
 
SweetLissa I agree almost 100% ......


....but if they can't feed them without aide then should they use BC or have an abortion?????
And some of the opinions posted on this thread have suggested that a married couple using barrier methods or timing or abstinence as a way to prevent additional children is unbiblical.
Either the rule of BC applies or it doesn't. God did not make BC rules for the rich and BC rules for the poor. IF you are rich and can care for more children than God gives then take in the orphans by the dozen.

This is the issue I am pointing out.
On one side the posters on this thread are cheering "NO BC".
YET, if a parent came on here and said "yeah, I've had to have all my kids on aide... can't afford to feed all six of 'em and keep the roof up." - Then the posters cheer "OH NO... you should not have someone else provide for your kids."

This is the doublemindness I am talking about.

SHOULD they go hungry???
To those who have posted in favor of biblical BC - I ask you to think about these:
Have you gone without food as a child or as an adult? I did, not just not enough food but NO food and not for just a day.
Have you ever had to dig in a trash bin behind restaurants to get your food? I did.
Have you had to run from police because someone reported you begging? I did.
Do you live with the lasting effects of malnutrition as a child? I do.
As an adult did you ever have to worry about a safe place to sleep, because you had no place to sleep? It isn't easy being a young woman and homeless.

=Many "go off" on how over bearing CPS agencies can be, but for me they were lazy pigs who cared less. They came to my parents home and left. The police came and left. My church did the best they could with what they knew. Bringing food when they thought it was needed- but "oh good ""christians"" don't take charity" so my parents order us not to say anything about our problems. (my parents were not really christians though, only wolves in sheep suits.)=

My point is that each one of us must analyze how we see the "bigger picture" of BC.
Biblical BC means more kids on the same income - Are we - on an individual level and as a church body- willing to change our cultural aversions to those who can't make ends meet?
If christians should not take government aide then are any of you willing to do so instead or shall they go hungry and or be homeless?

Do not point a person to a cliff and tell them walk and then turn around, screaming "fool" when they slip and fall.
If you heard on the news how parents were charged with murder and child endangerment because 1 child died of exposure due to homelessness and another of starvation and the other 2 are very malnourished - WOULD YOU PAY the legal cost to defend their belief in having as many children as God would provide even though they were homeless and had no way to provide for them and also were felt that accepting gov't aide was wrong?

I do believe that pharmaceutical BC is dangerous and unbiblical. I do not think that preventing pregnancy through non-lethal means is sin UNLESS it is being used in defiance of God's Will. And that decision is between a couple and God. Rom 14:23 everything that does not come from faith is sin.
 
I have not read this whole thread because I get upset when I see these types of things from Christians. There is nothing that I know of spoken in the Bible, (save 'spilling seed') about birth control. Therefore, I believe that in principle if God is silent on the issue, then we should be as well. There is nothing wrong with using various methods of birth control, except abortion, (which is in essence murder). However, even someone who stupidly has an abortion can repent and be forgiven, because it is not the unpardonable sin. People who know better should not have one because it is intentional sin and there is no longer a sacrifice for that, (Hebrews 10:26).

As for the cancer issue, sickness happens for a reason, (it should not be a mystery for believers). Christians are not supposed to get sick and even if they do they should be able to be healed. No poison is supposed to phase us. God has made ample provision for health and healing for believers, but the church leaders and the VAST MAJORITY of Christians are ignorant of these principles, though they are CLEARLY spelled out in the scriptures. I have never seen someone who follows said principles NOT be healthy or healed as need be. I have outlined these things on the healing teaching freely available on my web site, but most people CHOOSE not to believe these things, though they are directly from God and work EXACTLY as He says in His Word. It shocks me how people split religious hairs over insignificant issues and cannot even walk in the principles that are very clear in the Word such as sickness and healing. Blame the devil, chemicals, whatever, but do not take personal responsibility that the sickness ultimately comes from God for specific reasons and He is the only One who can prevent or cure it.

Children are by definition a blessing according to the Word and a man should have many of these 'arrows' in his quiver. However, we have to balance that with the times in which we live. We are near the time that Jesus warned that it would be woeful for those who are pregnant or nursing babies in those days. God can prevent or take away pregnancy as He wills and even that is for specific reasons that we can usually understand according to the Word. However, He has also given us food to eat and medicines to use to help us get through this natural life, especially until our faith is at the level that we can walk on water and move mountains, then no evil will befall us and every curse has no power over us. Anyone there yet? I will not condemn anyone for using ANY food or medicine, though one day neither will be necessary. God will meet people at whatever level of faith that they can muster, just ask Peter. Therefore, we should not sit in judgment of others for having or not having children by any God allowed means they wish. If Christians will simply walk according to the Spirit of God then no one will lack anything and no birth control will be necessary. Let us aspire to that goal and stop being critical of what others do in the meantime until we are perfected in Christ in ALL areas of our lives.

Be blessed,

Ray

btw, we are to be as wise as serpents so that we can outwit them, not act like one.
 
DrRay777 said:
Is for the cancer issue, sickness happens for a reason, (it should not be a mystery for believers).

For me due to genetics I have hormonally induced breast and ovarian cancer genes. If I were to take BC or steriods it will cause the trigger that will start the cancer..... I can eventually get cancer as I age just because of the genetics; but my sisters had big bad cancer in their 20's and 30's because they used BC.


Lack of faith is not the cause for continual illness and ailments in a believer; it is due to our conception in this sinful and fallen world - which we will only be fully released from in His kingdom. - I do believe in faith healing, but just because one is not healed does not mean they lack faith. 2 Cor 12: 7-10; 2 Sam 12: 23


because I get upset when I see these types of things from Christians
as do I.. unfortunately. Thank you for your example of grace.
 
T-C's Rebeka said:
Why did He demand the genocide of the peoples that Isreal lived amongst - because they gladly tortured and sacrificed children; they did not love the children of the creation that is made in His image.

I cannot say that I agree with this statement. If it were true then why did God NOT tell the Israelites to spare the children but to destroy them as well? A more likely reason that God demanded the 'genocide' is that He wanted ALL the people of the 'Promised Land' wiped out because they were descendents of those who mated with demonic spirits to produce giants, of which Goliath was one. The genetic code was thus corrupted, (warraenting genocide) and not just that the society was ingrained with the mystery Babylonian religion that indeed did cause the people to do things like human sacirfice. However, if the corrupt practices were the only thing that was at issue, then babies could at least have been spared since they would not have known of these things. We need to be careful when we tell people why God did something that it is really the reason, since most of the time we may not know the whole reason. It is probably better not to speak on God's behalf unless He is actually telling us to do so, because we may be in error, (Jeremiah 23:33-40).

Be blessed,'

Ray
 
DrRay777 said:
I have never seen someone who follows said principles NOT be healthy or healed as need be.
Then you haven't seen anything yet, and know nothing of this training ground of the Lord. My mother has been healed before, yet she remains unhealed of what she has now, for the last 22 years. Blame of the sick person is something Jesus never did. Remember that, and keep quiet about this false doctrine of destruction! God will heal whom He will heal. Many followers of Him become sick. There was one man who had a chief come to him in Africa for healing. He prayed for the chief and the chief was healed. The chief begged the man to come to his village. The man said he couldn't. The man who healed him, was too sick to come. This kind of thing is not uncommon. Stop putting the blame of sickness on the sick person!

As for your belief in birth control, if God opens and closes the womb, and God gives children as gifts, and blessed is the man who has many of them... then does God make mistakes that we have to correct? No. Did birth control bring any good? No. It has been a dark part of humanity for thousands of years, and even darker now that we have medical means of it and see the fruits of it among everyone. It is truly disgusting and wrong. But it is not spoken of in God's word because the Israelites didn't do that. The closest thing they did was child sacrifice, and that was horrid sin. Who did it? The Romans. Yes, we are taking in pagan practices from the sick men that brought you monogamy. That should tell you something.



Rebeka, I feel for you. I haven't been down to the point of eating out of the garbage, but God has left us nomads for a long time, and sometimes we have been homeless (though only while in the USA, while around our "Christian" family). I have not starved as you have, but many times I have gone without food and water so that others may eat and drink. I've lived with and without running water and electricity. I have had times of plenty and times of lack. Here's what I see.

The poor have nothing. Shall we take their children too? What would they have then? Less than nothing? Shall we deprive them of humanity because of their poverty? If it is wrong to not set them at our own table to eat with us, as poor brothers and sisters among us, then it is disgusting to deprive them of their children. Indeed, birth control was promoted strongly in the last century for the sake of eliminating the poor and "inferior" people from among the world of "elites". However, I have a different perspective than them. I see their suffering. Shall we take their only joy too? Shall we take their God-given right to being human? Shall we take their offspring from them? God says the poor will always be among us, even in the new kingdom. God says that the least of us shall become 1000, meaning that's the number of their offspring, minimum. Shall we say they cannot marry and bear children?

Children in poverty, from what I've seen, tend to come out a lot better than the snotty rich people I have seen. But man wants to kill off this "scum" before them. I say, give to them. If you don't like their position, you who are in a higher one, lift them up yourself! Do you love them as yourself? Then why are they lower than you? Lift them up! Take them in! But do not take their children from them!!! They are living with what God gives them. Especially in the USA, there is so much wealth that who among believers should be in lack? No one! It is our fault that they have trouble with life itself. We can lift them up. Yet we don't and they have nothing. Shall we take their children too? Never!

You don't like that they lack, fix it yourself. Do not advise them to prevent the gifts of God. Do not advise them to stop doing what He says. Advise them to do what people have done from the beginning. Marry, have children. If God takes them because there was no food, that is still one more soul in the kingdom of God, and God will judge those that refused to help you when they saw you were in lack. Your family will be continued by the few that survive, and they will be your joy and they will grow to help you live. They are your security and your future. It is not pretty, but neither is this world.

I was reading a post by a young single girl with a baby. She said that when her daughter smiles, her day is instantly awesome. That joy should be taken from no one, rejected by no one, and loved by all.
 
Sadan,

The truth about healing is the truth according to the Word of God and it works just as He says. Believe it or not. God does not withhold healing for no reason. Any believer can be healed. Period. Otherwise the suffering of Christ has been made of none effect. Those who become perfected in Christ will not get sick. It is as simple as that.

I will never stop preaching this message as it has been a command from God, persecution or not. Those who receive the truth avout healing and walk in it will be healed. It is a choice we all have. This includes generational curses such as genetically predisposed illnesses and all cancer. ALL curses are subject to the name of Christ, which is the name above all names. The kingdom of God is here and now for those who believe.

Someone who has the gift of healing may not understand why people get healed, as it is different than the truth about healing and therefore people with the gift of healing may not be able to get healed themselves. I have seen this more than once. I do not have this issue, since God has revealed this truth. Perhaps you should inquire of the people who have received this truth and been healed before you so strongly condemn something that is from God.

I am not blaming the sick person. It is the leaders of the church who are at fault and they will be held accountable you can count on that, (Ezekiel 34:4). I suggest that you not be counted among them.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
I see where you are coming from, Ray, however there are things in God's word that do imply otherwise.

Now, the proof is in the pudding. Many times people have tried to heal her. It's always the same story in the end. So if you know a cure-all solution, by all means, do so. She's suffered enough. So immediately heal her, as Jesus did, from afar. I do not doubt that God can heal her. I do not doubt that His will shall be done. I do not doubt that His word is true. So if you have the solution of the Lord, apply it.
 
DrRay777 said:
Otherwise the suffering of Christ has been made of none effect. Those who become perfected in Christ will not get sick. It is as simple as that.
Dr. Ray,
“Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:23

So Timothy wasn't perfected in Christ and made the sufferings of Christ of none effect you're saying? Paul also failed to teach Timothy the 'truth of healing' and instead told him to go out and get a bottle of wine. I suppose neither of them should be counted among the leaders of the church, just like my son? Interesting. What I find even more interesting is that you count yourself the perfect judge of all of this.

I have had quite a time with the attitudes of both doctors and "Faith" Christians over the years regarding sickness and healing. I was healed as a teenager in a normal church service while singing praises. It was no big deal, simple. I didn't need prayer lines or some special healer with a gift of healing to come to town. I knew Jesus, and He was there.

Over the years I didn't change. My faith didn't change. My relationship with Him didn't change. But His plan for me was not a garden of roses. He spoke to me of my purpose in life, and 3-5 months later I came down with a chronic illness. No amount of praying from around the world or from me, though my prayer life was beyond amazing, no prayer lines, nothing changed my course. Was I lacking faith? If so why didn't the Lord say so to me when He spoke to me? Why do people say things to you in the Name of the Lord that the Lord never says to your face? Why do people make doctrines in areas of which they have no expertise, and teach them to others? This is your pride in your 'revelations'. Are your revelations greater than God's word? If you think so, then how are you any different from Mohamed? How is your "truth" mixed with "revelations" any better than Islam?
 
I am not here to argue this issue with anyone. I have simply stated what God has shown me and it works. I have not stated anything that is not in God's Word. You may look for yourself. If you can find that anything I have said is not is not in the Word as I have laid it out in my teaching, then feel free to let me know. If you have not looked for yourself, I might suggest that you do so and perhaps you will find the answers you need. I am happy to help in any way that I can.

I will withdraw from discussing the issue further with you as it is not bearing fruit.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
So, to recap...

  • You say it works.
  • I say prove it.
  • You say it works, and you're not here to argue.

Lovely. Wish I could say I'm surprised.
 
sadanyagci said:
Rebeka, I feel for you. I haven't been down to the point of eating out of the garbage, but God has left us nomads for a long time, and sometimes we have been homeless (though only while in the USA, while around our "Christian" family).


Thank you for your sympathy. It is greatly appreciated.
I did not write that for sympathy though, because God sending me through that "desert" has made me a better servant to Him; for since I had nothing I cannot refuse a "harvesting job" that might lower my "status" in society. I have learned that where God's truely guides, God provides; but He only said needs not wants.



I have simply stated what God has shown me and it works.
Ray, I think this is an excellent example of Rom 14:23 everything that does not come from faith is sin.
What God has placed on your heart might be for you and your household, while others must seek God's direction and will.
 
Well we've gone off on a tangent--several actually. Back to birth control, I don't think God is silent- if you do a very thorough study of subject you will see that how many children you are to have is God's prerogative and Onan was killed for the reason of preventing a child from coming into the world. Like I said before don't make up your mind or take my word for it. Go to the resources I listed before on this thread and then discuss.
 
Itsoktobesingle said:
how many children you are to have is God's prerogative
Absolutely.




Onan was killed for the reason of preventing a child from coming into the world
But only because he disobeyed a direct order to produce a heir for his brother.... He didn't want his brother to have a child, the child was not going to be considered his but to the brother. So he was greedy and didn't want compentition to his father's wealth for his children. His brother was the Firstborn without an heir HE got to be next in line. Greed was the root of the problem.

The bible says go forth and multipy..... It does not give a command as to how many you multiply because that is an individual's (couple's) walk with God. It might be 0, 1, 2, or 7.

And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name [was] Tamar. And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. Gen. 38:6-10
 
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