Comparison of Romany Law with Israelite Law and Indo-Aryan Traditions

Discussion in 'Links of Interest' started by Kevin, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin Esteemed Member Male

    Romani predominately have H then next is then next highest is J and E? Or was J an example and its E that's the next highest? So the "Gypsy" moniker could be accurate. I'm getting confused. All I know is the next time some one calls me a pushratt I'm call b.s. on the whole pure Romani blood crap and telling them were all pushratt.
    andrew likes this.
  2. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    And then there's that whole Neanderthal DNA conundrum.

    It gets to be tricky after a while.

    Even among the haplogroups, what does it really tell you? Doesn't it just mean that a certain population of people lived in a certain area for a certain range of time in isolation long enough to create a distinctive genetic pattern? But if they took over an existing population, they would just have absorbed a different unique genetic population, no?

    Genetic studies can be fun, but after a while, you end up in circles.

    No offense Kevin. Hope you understand where this post is coming from.
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  3. Kevin

    Kevin Esteemed Member Male

    Yeah I thought the DNA thing was fun at first maybe an ahha but now it went way off into headacheville.
    none taken. I still think the similarities in the laws are cool and that's what I wanted to share.
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  4. Shibboleth

    Shibboleth Well-Known Member Male

    The J and E being mixed that I mentioned the first time, were specifically with respect to Ashkenazi Jews, and the second time was with respect to Egyptian population. In general, J has a high frequency throughout the Middle East, Arabia, and Anatolia, while E has a high frequency throughout Africa (and E1b1b specifically in North Africa). No surprise that where the two meet, (Egypt/Israel) there's a good percentage of mixing.

    For the Romani, according to this page, it's predominantly H (60%, which is really high compared to most people groups) with significant amounts of E and I mixed in.
    Kevin likes this.
  5. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Thanks for that summary shibboleth.
    As a programmer have you ever studied up on DNA computing?
    I got really interested in that some years ago. Some proteins are used as operators etc.. You guys may like to google about it. Really interesting stuff. Some solutions can even be computed in "DNA computers" faster than in traditional binary logic machines (normal computers). DNA is truly G-d's programming language :) (BTW Addleman, the creator of the 1st DNA computer is Jewish :)
    ... ok back to topic at hand...
    One interesting similarity I find with the Roma are how strict they are about intermarriage.
    Until the last century Judaism has been super strict about intermarriage as well (women or men).
    As a non-proselytizing religion it even turns foreigners away who wish to convert if they are monotheists already.
    The talmud strictly injuncts rabbis to turn potential converts away 3 times before finally allowing the painful 1-2 year process of conversion studies to begin (before the actual conversion is allowed only after a test by 3 judges).
    Conversion for marriage is forbidden.
    I think the suggestion of the "erev rav" mixed multitude coming out of Egypt may account for a lot of the diversity you mentioned as well as the proselytizing activities in Yeshua's time and just prior.
    Regarding the Cohein marker it's not a solitary gene but a series of markers.
    This makes sense to me as Cohanim (Jewish priests) are not allowed to marry converts, or even the children of converts.
    So in the vast soup that seems to be DNA research for determining "Jewishness" it makes sense to me that those guys would have a much higher level of something identifiable on the paternal side.

    Did you know that recently Israel has adopted DNA testing for immigration purposes in certain cases?
    I thought that would never happen where the government would trust DNA testing of Jews enough to count it for purposes of citizenship.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  6. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Did you ever see that movie with Jeff Black (I think his name) he's like a Mexican wrestler and he has a skinny homeless friend.
    Black is a monk and he asks the friend to pray for him and the friend says "I don't believe in G-d. I believe in science"
    Chavah likes this.
  7. Shibboleth

    Shibboleth Well-Known Member Male

    Just thought I'd leave you all with this diagram of all the different Y haplogroups (patrilineal descent lines) that I've been working on tonight. The nodes are each a haplogroup, and the edges between adjacent nodes represent one or more specific mutations that separate all nodes on one side of the edge from all the nodes on the other side. The notes off to the side are very rough notes about where this particular haplogroup is found in high frequency, although it should not be indicative that all of that people belong to that haplogroup, or that it is the only group that belongs to that haplogroup. As we've already seen, these can be very widespread.

    (Edit: replaced the png with a jpg due to transparency issues...)

    Attached Files:

  8. Kevin

    Kevin Esteemed Member Male

    Thank you @Shibboleth and everyone. I think it's safe to say unless some documents miraculously pop up that say in such in such place at such in such time this is the origins of people who became known as the Romani happens we won't ever know. Roll credits cue music.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  9. Kevin

    Kevin Esteemed Member Male

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  10. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Good job on the chart, there are also further divisions of course (for example J2 etc) with distinctions between various members of the haplogroups (for example Jews vs Arabs vs Druze etc. can be identified in this manner but you'll run out of room on your diagram if you start going down to that level of detail.
    Bringing it all back to Romani ... it would be interesting to see the finer grain divisions for various Indian subdivisions and Romani.
    One study I read today about Azhkenazi Jews and other flavors of Jews (Sephardi, Mizrachi, Ethiopian etc) indicated that there were more genetic similarities between these various scattered groups than there were to the local populations (for example Azhkenaziym only had 8% European commonality in 1 study on the male side).

    I wonder how the various gypsy groups commonality maintains to each other verses the local populations where they were since the article @Kevin posted indicated that Romani would rarely marry with other Romani from neighboring villages but they would take in foreign wives.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  11. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Hey guys, for anyone who's interested in DNA ancestry testing,
    23 and me has a 2 for $99 sale. Quite a good deal actually.
    A Syrian Christian friend of mine recently did this test and found out he's 13% Jewish (which I always suspected anyway).

    23 and me 2 for $99 (no I don't get kickbacks or anything just usually this is $99 for this test).
    You also get the raw data so you can then pay $5 to another site (I'll find out the name if you want it) and upload your raw data and get a health report (usually 23 and me charges like an extra $50 for the health report).
  12. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    This is not directed at you Ish, this is just my opinion...
    I am usually not "conspiracy" oriented, but something in me just recoils at these tests. I guess my local GP or Life Insurance broker can turn my blood into any entity for devious activities, but me willingly swabbing my cheek for someone seems scary. Are there anti disclosure clauses prior to sending in?
  13. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    I hear ya. You don't have to provide your real name and you can use a PO Box if you want the data but don't want them to know who you are.
    I get the feeling and the gov't is becoming increasingly overreaching but for those who want to know this information, it can be quite interesting. For my Syrian buddy, people used to always say we look like brothers and I always joked that he must have Jewish blood, so it was just neat to see that he does in fact have Jewish blood.

    For those who aren't worried about big brother knowing you have a great great grandparent who's Navajo tribe or something like that,there are also groups where you can connect to lost relatives.
    There really are neat things you can do with this for those who are into genealogy and if you're smart about it you can stay relatively anonymous.
    And since the Republicans are such wussies and wont' even remove pre-existing conditions from Obama care, I kinda think we aren't heading in the direction of being weeded out based on DNA testing though things could always turn.
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  14. FollowingHim

    FollowingHim Administrator Staff Member Male

    The risk is not that the government might find out the results of the test they send back to you. The risk is that your DNA could be kept on-file in a bank of genetic material that can be used for all sorts of questionable purposes in future. There's a lot more you can do with DNA than just estimating what percentage likelihood you have of being a particular race, some of which can be damaging even if they don't have your true identity.

    Personally, I expect all the hereditary testing is actually pretty inaccurate, and is just used as a bait to get people to willingly put their DNA on file. The people behind the companies doing this work will have much deeper interests than this.
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  15. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Could be.
    That's a whole other area; I thought @Mojo was mostly concerned about gov't having information about him visa vi future medical insurance issues, etc.
    For sure you're right these companies want to increase their genetic sample sizes so they can continue their business.

    I'd be surprised if they are so inaccurate if they'd be able to continue charging $100 a pop. Some people are quite sure of their lineage (Mormons for example spend a lot of time on this). If these companies (23 and me is kind of a brand name in the states for that) are duping people and giving fake results that'll come out in the form litigation. One good thing about being a nation with so many lawyers is crooked companies can get taken down.

    I'm sure you are right though that some of the smaller companies are just hopping on the big data bandwagon and may do sloppy work.