+1 for Durbin, Sauve, Wilson, et al. Solid guys.
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Considering postmillenial eschatology
- Thread starter Bartato
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+1 for Durbin, Sauve, Wilson, et al. Solid guys.
Did you grow up in the Whore Church (Aholah) or the Whore Synagogue?
Hint: "All of the above," is also a choice.
Which have, IMHO, without question, NOT been fulfilled. The "two sticks" are NOT echad, and both whorin' wives STILL, to this very day, remain in exile. For cause.
They are one and not a whore when espoused and obedient to Christ.Did you grow up in the Whore Church (Aholah) or the Whore Synagogue?
Hint: "All of the above," is also a choice.
Which have, IMHO, without question, NOT been fulfilled. The "two sticks" are NOT echad, and both whorin' wives STILL, to this very day, remain in exile. For cause.
This is talking around the issue and does not address my question, honestly. It is assertions of opinion without reasons, qualified by IMHO.Did you grow up in the Whore Church (Aholah) or the Whore Synagogue?
Hint: "All of the above," is also a choice.
Which have, IMHO, without question, NOT been fulfilled. The "two sticks" are NOT echad, and both whorin' wives STILL, to this very day, remain in exile. For cause.
Are you asserting that all the prophecies about Judah relate to whoever is attending synagogue, and all the prophecies about Ephraim relate to whoever is attending church?
If so (and don't bothering answering these follow-up questions if that assumption is wrong, as they may be completely barking up the wrong tree), for what actual scriptural reason do you identify these people in this way? How do you reject everyone who is not attending synagogue from being Judah - are the secular Jews not Judah (ie the majority of Israel's population)? Are the Messianics not Judah? Likewise, what scriptural reason do you have for associating the Church with Ephraim? Are the genetic descendents of Ephraim not Ephraim?
I really think you're opening up a massive mess here which would take pages and pages to explain, and it does not address the simple question I was raising.
My question was simply around who are the genetic descendants of Judah, and whether it is even possible statistically not to be one. It's a basic question of maths, that's all.
No. (So, the corollaries do not follow.)
I contend, and can cite Scripture at length, and have, as you know, that Jeremiah 3 and Ezekiel 23 lay out the fundamentals, the both the northern and southern kingdoms, Israel and Judah, by many other names and references (Aholah/Aholabah, Ephraim/Judah, Samaria/Jerusalem, etc.) both went into exile, and clearly still are. Not opinion: the "Greater Exodus" and regathering referred to first by Moses, and then virtually every other prophet, has simply NOT happened. (Not really opinion, but I have seen NO compelling evidence from the preterists to claim something which is so at odds with what is plainly evident.)
As to the heirs of that legacy, I can make a consistent case, but at much greater length, and won't do that here, that Samaria, the "ten lost tribes" - still lost at the time of Yahushua, and He said He came "but to" them - is the "whore church" (pick your denomination, but the key is idolatry that is consistent. So is the violation of the commandment not to "add to" or "subtract from" His Word. Examples should be undeniable to all here, even recently addressed.
The 'whore synagogue,' descends from the exile promised by all the prophets, through the pharisees, etc - and performs all those same modifications, but seems to particularly excel at the "adding to" part.
You asked about identification. I suggest that answer is definitive in that regard.
Finally, and most importantly, to Pete's valid point: Those two houses are undeniably NOT "echad".
And:
I rest my case.
So to clarify, it is a spiritual line of descent on both sides, and not a physical one. The Jews of today holding the philosophical flame of the Pharisees are the representatives of Judah today, and the same for the church and Ephraim. It's got nothing to do with actual biological descent. Is that what you mean @Mark C?
So far, so good.
It may, or may NOT, be. That is an independent question, and doesn't affect the argument.
Note: Paul says folks can be "grafted in". Same situation, same distinction, can apply. But don't overlook the fact that there are some spiritual lines (OK, One) we should WANT to be grafted into, and others we learn to COME OUT of.
PS> As to your statistical claim, no argument. But, it's at least equally true that we may have more than one line of descent through multiple tribes.
OK and that inclines me to one more comment, certainly relevant to the "why both whoring houses/wives are NOT, and have NOT BEEN, echad, since at least the time of the split after the reign of King Solomon:
2) As for the association of the Whore Church (my contention, again: Northern Kingdom, "lost Israel," Aholah, the "ten lost tribes," etc, etc): That is indeed a long proof - you're correct, transcripts would certainly run to hundreds of pages, and it's one that I have posted great numbers of teachings on Hebrew Nation Radio, my own website and services, and even quite a few here. In my opinion, the HUGE numbers of references and proof texts connect SO many dots that, once seen, it's impossible to UN-see.
I contend that THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL REASON why an understanding of patriarchy, the TWO wives of YHVH (again, most here know - Jeremiah 3, Ezekiel 23, and other references) is so VITAL to understanding who we all are, and, why we are STILL IN EXILE to this day.
It is a discussion which will offend some, because it is inextricably linked to an understanding of His Instruction, but should be at the heart of what those here, who seek to understand His Word concerning polygyny in general should want to understand, to "show ourselves approved," and "rightly divide the Word."
RE: This thread, in particular. The word says, over and over again, that WHEN those two houses, two whoring wives, two sticks, two kingdoms, are EVENTUALLY and finally made 'echad' in His hand, they will NEVER be separated again. (One undeniable proof: Ezekiel 37:15-end)
That, alone, blows the entire "postmillenial", preterist, 70 AD, etc, flatulence completely out of the water, IMO.
1) Many of us (who may or may not use the denominational term "messianic") are certainly not of the tribe of Judah, or if we are, don't know it. Not the issue.
2) As for the association of the Whore Church (my contention, again: Northern Kingdom, "lost Israel," Aholah, the "ten lost tribes," etc, etc): That is indeed a long proof - you're correct, transcripts would certainly run to hundreds of pages, and it's one that I have posted great numbers of teachings on Hebrew Nation Radio, my own website and services, and even quite a few here. In my opinion, the HUGE numbers of references and proof texts connect SO many dots that, once seen, it's impossible to UN-see.
I contend that THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL REASON why an understanding of patriarchy, the TWO wives of YHVH (again, most here know - Jeremiah 3, Ezekiel 23, and other references) is so VITAL to understanding who we all are, and, why we are STILL IN EXILE to this day.
It is a discussion which will offend some, because it is inextricably linked to an understanding of His Instruction, but should be at the heart of what those here, who seek to understand His Word concerning polygyny in general should want to understand, to "show ourselves approved," and "rightly divide the Word."
RE: This thread, in particular. The word says, over and over again, that WHEN those two houses, two whoring wives, two sticks, two kingdoms, are EVENTUALLY and finally made 'echad' in His hand, they will NEVER be separated again. (One undeniable proof: Ezekiel 37:15-end)
That, alone, blows the entire "postmillenial", preterist, 70 AD, etc, flatulence completely out of the water, IMO.
I like your use of IMO rather than IMHO, since H does not seem to be one of your chief characteristics.
There's a time and a place for humble, and a time to tell it like it is. That, IMHO, is particularly important when it comes to Scripture.I like your use of IMO rather than IMHO, since H does not seem to be one of your chief characteristics.
And he also says that other folks were cut out first, so we could be grafted in.
I agree that when someone is grafted in, they are completely part of that tree, equal to the natural branches, so that genetics are not important.
But you have to consider the other side of the equation also for this to make sense. Who has been cut out? Obviously they can still be grafted back in again, Paul is very clear about that, and we are to seek this (we all know evangelism to the Jews is a very important ministry, and many of us are or have been directly involved in this). However, prior to being grafted back in, they are cut out.
These are two sides of the same coin. We cannot recognise one and ignore the other. You have talked about who is grafted in, but have made no mention of who is cut out.
So, are we to consider people who do not follow Messiah to be spiritually Judah - or are they cut out until they repent?
Au contraire.
I have been criticized for talking about that too much...because I contend He does!
They are cast out - BOTH whoring wives! - for idolatry/adultery!
For rejecting Him and going after other 'elohim.'
And the only way they EVER, of any of the tribes, get grafted back in is just as clear: t'shuvah.
"Return to Me."
The trouble with the English word "repent" is because most xtians simply don't really understand what the word really means: Return. Turn around. Make a 180. Go back. To Him Whom we should never have left in the first place.
You can't "return" to Him and keep all the foreign gods/lovers/idols. And they are Legion.
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