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Courtship or Adultery/Affair/Lust?

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Australian_Wife

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[Biblical Families staff: this post has been edited to meet guidelines - it's still PG-13, but we don't want to delete for poster's sake. We don't have an age check on just reading our forums, so let's keep sexual details off limits.]

My husband and I married 8 years ago. Polygamy was discussed and accepted as biblical before our marriage and we have been looking for a second wife to join our family.

My husband met a lady approx a month ago. She adores him and has fallen in love with him, he too loves her and says he loves her as much as he loves me. They met online and the first physical contact they had was when they met at a resturant and kissed (passionatly as well as friendship type kiss on the cheek). There is hours and hours of conversations over the phone, online etc etc. The lady knows about me however does not accept polygamy, she says she is a Christian but from some of the things she's said to my husband that I've been told about I don't believe she is (which my husband agrees with).

I found out one time he'd been at her house whilst he'd stayed fully clothed she [edited out] and that they had kissed passionatly for an extended period. He came home smelling strongly of her purfume so it wasn't just a quick thing, it was a long lingering cuddling and passionate embrace/kissing.

I explained to my husband that I felt this was a very very grey area - if she was accepting of polygamy I believe this is courtship, however given she is unaccepting of it but still wants my husband I believe kissing this passionatly is a very grey area of adultery/lust.

My husband says he loves her which I don't doubt and is trying to show her what she can have in the hope that she accepts polygamy.

Last weekend he went over to her house, he came home and told me they'd been kissing again - I wasn't impressed as I'd told him my viewpoint. He however doesn't believe this is a sin/affair/adultery - I'd previously told him that I trust him and his opinion but still stand by my views that this is lust driven (given that at this stage there is no chance of her accepting polygamy).

He lied (for which he has repented and I have forgiven) and told me when I asked that nothing further happened. I later found out he'd [intimate details edited out].

He told me he was very close to having sex with her and very much wanted too (he believes that this would equal marriage - 2 becoming 1 flesh) and told me he woke up the next morning regretting he hadn't.

I have asked and asked to meet her - she is unwilling too, both my husband and I believe this is because she doesn't want to accept that I am real. This deeply hurts my husband and he would like nothing more than for me to meet her and for us to get along, become sisterwives etc.

Ok so that long winded introduction leads to my question:

What is acceptable (biblically) in courtship and at what point does it become an affair/lust/adultery?

Any thoughts with scriptural references too would be very much appreciated.
 
Your husband is on very dangerous ground, and whether this lady is actually a believer or not, he is totally dishonoring you in this relationship - and he is following his lustful heart, not the Lord. If he continues in this relationship, I am certain you are in for much heartache, not the love that can come from an expanded family. He has shown her he is more interested in a physical relationship than in really convincing her that polygamy is a valid option. I'm sure she expects she can entice him away at this point. There is no "courtship" going on, if she's not open to accepting his entire family.

If your husband reads this site, I strongly encourage him to repent of this relationship, walk away 100%, and seek God's forgiveness - and rebuild his relationship and trust with you. We will be happy to talk with him and council the both of you.

Folks, this is NOT what Christian plural marriage is about - this is a gross misuse of our liberty in this area. It is exactly the kind of thing that taints us - that people want to say we are about ("it's all about sex"). Which is NOT true for those making the huge sacrifice of a larger family and commitment.

Australian_Wife - Pastor Randy or I, or one of our wives, will contact you privately also - you need some prayer support at this time.
Tell your husband he's more than welcome to write privately. nathan@biblicalfamilies.org
 
Hello,
I completely agree with Nathan! I'm sorry this is happening to you and no, this is not "normal" courtship for a polygamist marriage.
Your husband is actually cheating on you & I'm so sorry!! When he knew from the beginning that she didn't believe in polygamy he
should had stopped it right there. Before any intimacy can happen there needs to be a commitment & vows made between a man &
his second wife. She also needs to respect his first wife and his marriage to you. I agree your husband needs to repent and 100% walk away
from this woman and maybe get some counseling with Nathan or others here who can teach him about true Biblical polygamy and what it really
means and how it really works. Will be praying for you & your husband and I'm here if you need to talk. My husband just started courting a potential
sister wife so I understand what you're going through to a certain point.
Heidi Lee
 
Australian_Wife,
Hi. As Nathan said, I am contacting you to tell you that you are not alone here. I am Lissa, Pastor Randy's second wife and I can assure you that what your husband is doing shows complete lack of respect for you as well as for God. If a Christian man wouldn't have that kind of contact with a female during courtship then certainly he shouldn't be having it while married and persuing an additional wife. As far as I am concerned this is sexual contact. Whether intercourse happened or not doesn't matter one bit.

She is not interested in Polygamy so she should have stopped the relationship from the moment she found out he was married. She may or may not be a believer, but at the very least she is not behaving like a Christian woman should.

I hope that you will talk to him and tell him what you have learned from this site. I would hope that he would be willing to talk to one of the men on our board and be willing to accept counsel from them. Meanwhile, you need to gather your own strength and build up your relationship with God. I bet you are in for a rocky ride. United we stand, divided we fall. Take care and feel free to PM me.

In His service,
Sweet Lissa
 
[Biblical Families staff: this post has been edited to meet guidelines - it's still PG-13, but we don't want to delete for poster's sake. We don't have an age check on just reading our forums, so let's keep sexual details off limits.]

Australian_Wife,

Wow. I'm almost at a loss for words (and as others can attest to, that's rare for me). As I read your message, huge warning lights were blazing every few seconds! There is so much wrong here that it's hard to even organize my thoughts. Let me respond to some of the more important points you brought up.

Australian_Wife said:
My husband and I married 8 years ago...My husband met a lady approx a month ago. She adores him and has fallen in love with him, he too loves her and says he loves her as much as he loves me.
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First warning light. They met a month ago and he already claims to love her as much as he loves you, his wife of eight years. What is his definition of love? It sounds like his emotions are ruling him, instead of him ruling his emotions. Not an absolute impossibility, but certainly a significant warning sign this early on.

Australian_Wife said:
The lady knows about me however does not accept polygamy, she says she is a Christian but from some of the things she's said to my husband that I've been told about I don't believe she is (which my husband agrees with).
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At which point, I have to ask...WHY exactly is anyone pursuing this relationship anymore? If she doesn't accept polygyny as Biblical, then what exactly does she think she's doing here?? She knows you are his wife and he's (supposedly) looking for another wife, not a mistress. I can believe she's a Christian that doesn't believe in polygyny and wants nothing to do with your husband. I cannot believe she's a Christian that doesn't believe in polygyny and still wants to "fool around" with your husband. Something here is not right in what she claims to believe.

Australian_Wife said:
I found out one time he'd been at her house whilst [edited].... He came home smelling strongly of her purfume so it wasn't just a quick thing, it was a long lingering cuddling and passionate embrace/kissing. I explained to my husband that I felt this was a very very grey area
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This is no gray area -- this has certainly crossed the line. I don't think any of the people involved would suggest that he and she are married, so I ask, would anyone have a problem with him doing these things with another man's wife? If so, why?

Australian_Wife said:
My husband says he loves her which I don't doubt and is trying to show her what she can have in the hope that she accepts polygamy.
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Which is like the teenage Christian girl who has sex with her boyfriend as a means to win him over and ultimately bring him to Jesus. Whatever his true motives may be, the way he is (mis)-handling things is deplorable, in my opinion.

Australian_Wife said:
He however doesn't believe this is a sin/affair/adultery - I'd previously told him that I trust him and his opinion but still stand by my views that this is lust driven (given that at this stage there is no chance of her accepting polygamy).
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Does he have any daughters? I'm sure there's plenty of guys that would love the opportunity to not sin/affair/adultery with them, since he obviously approves of such behavior between unmarried couples.

Australian_Wife said:
I later found out [edited].
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At what point does he think his righteousness has been compromised? Clearly, if all this is true, your husband has no problems engaging in sexual activities just short of intercourse with a woman he is not married to. WHO CARES if he might or might not marry her someday? He's not married to her now and his behavior is like a horny 17-year-old wolf cruising the town, not a grown Christian man with a loving wife and an eye to his family's best interest. [Edited.] He should know that it never should have gone this far in the first place.

Australian_Wife said:
What is acceptable (biblically) in courtship and at what point does it become an affair/lust/adultery?
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Well, nothing he does with her can be considered adultery, unless she's a married woman. But he's certainly crossed the line into whoring with her. [Editted] it most certainly was whoring. They are both engaged in sexual sin and he needs to walk, no RUN, away. This is daytime talk show material for sure!

I have one wife so I can't speak to courtship procedure here, but egads!!! If the conversation or actions turn straight to sex, that'd be my cue to part ways. It sounds like his priorities are completely upside-down. Maybe he should try looking for a second wife who is more concerned with loving and obeying God than how quickly she can strip her clothes off. Would he even WANT to marry a woman that acts in such a way? He is being duped and he's willingly allowing it to happen.

A personal warning to you. This woman is not interested in sharing your husband. She wants to take him all for herself. She is playing to his selfishness and ego, trying to lure him away. This is the classic, feminist mindset -- competing sexually for your husbands attention with no intention of preserving his existing family commitment. In a monogynist society, only one gets to keep HER man, and she's playing the game the way she's been brought up.

If this continues, instead of gaining a wife, he will likely lose one. My best wishes go out to you and your husband. I pray that God touches his heart and opens his eyes as to what is happening here, before it's too late. You might also want to speak with someone here at this site (staff@biblicalfamilies.org), since they have a lot of experience in these matters and would be able to pray with you for resolution.

May God continue to bless you and your family in these difficult times.

Love in Him,
David
 
Thank you for your responses.

My post was written in desperation last night as I don't know where else to ask/seek advice as obviously general society would condemn polygamy. I appreciate your responses and am so glad I had this to wake up too. I will process them and be back later when my wriggly little 11 month old who is currently on my knee is having her morning sleep.

I also want to defend my husband - I don't know what to say but it hurt reading some of your response because he is a good man.

I showed my husband my post before I posted it. I don't know if he'll respond in here or not.

Thanks again.
 
It's just getting worse and uglier.

My husband skimmed what has been written before racing off to have his shower and get ready for work. He has now left with tears in his eyes and angry and bearly a word too me as he seems to think I have condemmed him rather than seeing i'm desperatly seeking to understand his viewpoint - I fear his long drive into work and pray for safe journey.

My husband said "I've never been so quickly judged by people who don't know me". I guess he'll read the whole thing properly once at work, I hope he does so he can see my response that I do think he's a good man.

I'm sorry to be selfish right now - whilst I truly appreciate your responses and the time you took from your own lifes to respond could I please ask for one thing. Whether he is wrong or right in the relationship - what biblical scriptures are there. I hope he comes on and discusses his view point as I'm not sure my words are doing it justice - however he believes fornication is sexual intercourse alone.-

My head is all over the place - I stand by my husband, I however am trying to figure out what is happening and what is biblically right.

Our poor daughter is standing here banging the couch - i need to get her breakfast and give her my full attention rather than being on the laptop.

A_W xx
 
Hello,

Our heart goes out to you. You have already been contacted by one of the leader's wives by now.
 
After reading your three postings, as well as those of this board, I too must agree that the road you husband is heading down can not receive the Lord’s blessing, as it is of this world and does not honor our Lord nor give glory to His name. We are called to be a people of faith as well as light. That light is not of ourselves but a reflection of Him. Simply the closer we draw to Him the more of that light radiates out to those around us. Since He is pure we are called, lead by His Spirit within us, to be pure. Your husband’s “dating” activities are anything but pure, and I fear he is caught in the trap of trying to cross a great canyon (plural marriage and the search for a 2nd wife) in his own strength and using his own (perhaps her own) resources.

As husbands of one, two, or however many wives we are called to be providers, protectors, pastors (within the home), princes, and pure. Your husband is dropping the ball in a big way and is headed for harm. My brothers and sisters who have posted prior to me are all correct! He needs to stop immediately, seek the Lord’s face, look for counsel from Godly men, and get back to what God has called him to be and do.

To your husband I would add; any future “dating” with whomever the Lord brings to you needs to be in the context of your existing family and as if the Lord were along on each and every one of those “dates”. Seek first to honor God in all your activities (purity calls for treating any woman as if she is the daughter of the King of Kings), and it will go along way toward blessings. Ephesians 5:27 says that husbands are called to “present our wives (present or potential) having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but she should be holy and blameless”. As men we are called to leadership, thus it is dependent upon us to lead in righteous activities, especially when dating.

To Australian Wife my heart and prayers go out to you, and I pray that your husband would take a step back and consider the wisdom offered to him by my brothers. We do not seek to judge but are passionate about grabbing hold of the hand of a fellow brother who is headed off a cliff.

May God be with you and your husband in this time of trial and temptation.

Ray
 
A word to the husband...

My prayer would be that he/you does not take offense to the point that he feels unwelcome or unable to find support here. Both of you ARE in our prayers.

I share the 'cautions' that have been expressed above, but can understand the natural human (ok, especially male) desire to CONVINCE someone about the 'rightness' of our cause - be it polygyny, or marriage, or love...
Just bear in mind there are at least two, probably three, people here thinking about doing some convincing.

With that in mind, please consider what I hope will be a positive suggestion.

Put a stop to the physical aspect of the relationship while the Biblical ones are discussed instead. Talk to the woman about what the Bible actually SAYS about polygyny. Either she will be able to discuss that with a potential husband in the way that any woman would want to interact with him, or not.

That alone will be a valuable indicator of the real situation.


IFF (if and only if) that is successful, the next step might include bringing the first wife into the discussion.


Blessings,

Mark
 
I recently starting courting a woman. However, before I started courting her, she knew that my wife and I was seeking a special woman to join our family. If this woman was not interested in polygamy, then as a good man I would have to walk away.

Courting is a process. In my case I get an email from a woman. I email her back and we have similar qualities and interests. We email back and forth and get to know each other better. I show my wife her emails so my wife can get to know her also. At some point, a week or two later, my wife and this special woman start communicating by email. Eventually, if everyone cares about each other, and is interested, we would all meet in person and get to know each other better. Hopefully, love will develop where I would have my second love and my wife would have a best friend.

You can't convert a woman, she has to want to join a couple in marriage. There are plenty of women out there interested in this kind of relationship. However, your husband is doing it the wrong way. I am sure he is a good man, but before you have any physical contact with the woman including kissing, both the wife and the potential second wife should be good friends. Otherwise, there wll be no love just a lot of jeoulosy and ill feelings.

I feel bad for both of you because your husband is in love with this woman and these feelings are very powerful. The only action he can take right now is stop contact completely with this woman. I went through this in February of this year where I had limerence for a woman and was falling in love. It will be difficult, but necessary. When I say no contact, I mean, he has to remove her completely from his life. After a few months, he should stop longing for her and can move on.

Otherwise, he might committ adultery. In polygamy, you should only really have sexual relations with a second wife when all three of you are married in a ceremony. Then your husband can have sexual relations without committing adultery since he would be married to both of you. Best of luck.
 
Yep, he's cheating on you and calling it an attempt to court a second wife and convert her. It's pretty clear to me that she's not into polygamy - but obviously has no problem being his mistress.

You don't want this woman in your life anyway, she sounds like she has no morals/or (Christian) values as the rest of the posters on here would say. Shame on him for taking advantage of your trust and love.
 
Sara,

someone who is new to living polygyny can easily make mistakes - big mistakes. Don't forget we don't have very many role models in modern Western society on how to live polygyny righteously. So don't be so quick to accuse AW's husband of deliberately misusing her trust in him.

I do hope, however, he will read and heed the very good advice that has been offered here.
 
:eek:),

Sorry, the mistress doesn't want it, and the man knows it. Common sense says that should be the end of it.

This is what gives polygyny a bad name. If you're saying that these men and women may not know the difference between love and lust, -or that hooking up with a woman while you're already married while knowing that this woman isn't interested in marrying you and continuing to call it "courting" is okay, I think you're very naive. That's like giving a man a ticket to go out and do as he pleases as long as he says he's interested in another marriage. I'm sure that they are many genuine, trusting polygamous relationships out there, but this situation doesn't appear to be the start of anything like one of those.

And just because I'm not a polygamist doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

Sara
 
:-) said:
someone who is new to living polygyny can easily make mistakes - big mistakes. Don't forget we don't have very many role models in modern Western society on how to live polygyny righteously.
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We certainly do live in troubled and confusing times, but I don't think this is really a polygyny vs. monogyny type issue. I think this is more of a "dating" issue. If the husband believes this type of sexual behavior is acceptable in a monogynous courting process, then it stands to reason he would see nothing wrong with it here either. And consider, the matter is compounded in that he is already married and is conditioned to be sexually active. Not standing in his shoes, I can only assume it would have taken tremendous willpower for the husband to avoid letting it go further than it did.

I believe the incredulous reaction of the community here is because the concept that was described is so foreign to acceptable Christian behavior. Some of us can't readily agree whether our shoelaces should be blue with white stripes or white with blue stripes, so I think it speaks volumes when the entire body speaks together against sexual sin such as described in the original post. My wife tells me that, through correspondence with a friend over e-mail, there's now an entire church somewhere in central California that is praying for this family and for God to strengthen their relationship. Mistakes can be repaired and avoided in the future, but one can't fix what one doesn't recognize is wrong.

Love in Him,
David
 
Sara said:
If you're saying that these men and women may not know the difference between love and lust, -or that hooking up with a woman while you're already married while knowing that this woman isn't interested in marrying you and continuing to call it "courting" is okay, I think you're very naive.
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I don't think that's what...face, is it? I don't think that's what face was trying to communicate. What we need to realize is that the man's existing marital status is not the issue here. If the stated behavior is wrong, it's wrong regardless. It's the same whether he already has a wife or not. Would we give a green light to such behavior if he WASN'T already married? If not, then his marital status shouldn't detract us from the fact that his actions should be reserved for if and when she becomes his covenantal wife.

Love in Him,
David
 
I have to go with Sara, this man is married and the marital status is an issue. He is showing disrespect for his wife and his marriage by pursuiing this relationship. This is supposed to be a relationship between him and his wife courting a potential spouse. Not him seeking a potential spouse by himself. Please don't say what this man is doing is right because it goes against the principles of proper courting in a Christian Patriarchal Marriage. Simply put: He needs to include his wife in the process from the start.
 
jorgema said:
I have to go with Sara, this man is married and the marital status is an issue. He is showing disrespect for his wife and his marriage by pursuiing this relationship...Please don't say what this man is doing is right
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I'm probably misreading you here so please forgive me if I've missed it. I agree he is disrespecting his first wife in his actions, but how is the husband's existing marital status related in any way to whether his actions with this other woman are acceptable or not? If...belch...PG-13 regulations...ummm....if a man reciting a book report (how's that for creative license?) to a woman he's not married to is a sin, then it's a sin. I wasn't trying to say what he was doing was right. On the contrary, I'm saying it was wrong and that it was just as wrong whether he had a wife or not. It didn't become wrong just because he was already married. It would be JUST AS WRONG even if he had not been married. Whoring is a sin and that doesn't change based on whether the man is already married. Until he is married to this woman, she is merely a sexual playmate, a free prostitute, and "reciting a book report" to her is whoring, any way we slice it.

jorgema said:
This is supposed to be a relationship between him and his wife courting a potential spouse. Not him seeking a potential spouse by himself...it goes against the principles of proper courting in a Christian Patriarchal Marriage. Simply put: He needs to include his wife in the process from the start.
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Now I'm confused. Is he looking to marry this woman, or are they both looking to marry this woman? Are we saying the wives are somehow married to one another?!? How is the existing wife or wives in any way related to the process of his selection at this early juncture? When the time comes, once a potential suitable woman has been selected, the wives will be introduced and they can collectively determine whether this is a good fit for the family or not, but let's not confuse marriage as anything other than between a man and his wife. The wives do not marry one another.

Love in Him,
David
 
Hi David,

I agree that whether he is married or not he is not behaving properly.

What I meant is that it is imperative that his wife bond like a sister to his potential second wife. I agree that he should identify a potential wife first. However, once he determines that the qualities of his potential meet his criteria, his wife should have the opportunity to get to know his potential. You see, it does not matter how much he likes his potential, if his wife does not like her, then it cannot happen. So he should encourage his potential to get to know his wife and bond with her. Once the two women have gotten to know each other, then it will make it so much easier for him to pursue his potential second wife. It is his job to bring the two women together and encourage that they develop a friendship first. Remember, this is the art of managing two women, which makes a good Christian Patriarchal Husband. If he cannot manage two women getting to know each other and bonding, then when his second wife enters his home, he will not know what to do when there is a real problem.

He is going to have a wonderful marriage if he could get his two wives to love each other like sisters or best friends. He needs to encourage this starting from the time he identifies a potential second wife. Like a Maestro, he needs to orchestrate this dance between his potential second wife and his wife to perfection.

I tell you this from experience because right now I have a potential second wife that I really like. I told her not to worry about me, but to win my wife's heart. I advised her to be extra charming and sweet to my wife. It is starting to work, I feel my wife opening up to her more and more. Once my wife starts to really like her, then I can pursue some more.
 
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